Current "Direction" and "Impact" of 3-Gun Matches?

I was asked to bring this topic here by a MOD, so here I am with my 2-Cents!

In all seriousness, I have been talking with a number of shooters about the current "surge" taking place with 3-Gun matches, in particular things like 3-Gun Nation.

First let me start off by saying,
- To each their own, obviously plenty of people shooting the current matches, and enjoying them so by all means more power to them.
- I am not trying to downplay the skill level or credibility of 3-Gun shooters, they are VERY good at what they do.
- I am glad that any shooting sport is gaining support and popularity.

The issues which have been brought up about a number of the recent 3-Gun matches are primarily based around the premise that a fair amount of what goes on can set bad examples or build bad habits for shooters (especially inexperienced ones) who are getting into or who are currently involved with Military or LE activities. In particular:
- Outfit & Gear, primarily what you would wear to seriously compete in a 3-Gun Match, is not anywhere close to what you would wear for Military or LE duty.
- Actions While Shooting, whether it is movement, reloads, or target engagement, if you tried it for Military or LE duty, you would stand a good chance at ending up dead.
- Scenarios, some of them are somewhat setup with a "Military or LE Theme", but they are not run or executed as a Military or LE operation would be.

I can appreciate that 3-Gun Competitions are not Military or LE Training per say, but I just hope that a lot of newer shooters are not watching videos, attending matches, and picking up tips from the pros, that if used on the battlefield or in the real world are going to get them hurt or killed. As unfortunately many of us know, a lot of Military and LE shooters today are forced to pickup training whenever, wherever, and however they can because their organizations are not providing it. Good or bad, given the increasing popularity of 3-Gun, and its "perceived tactical background", many shooters are turning to whatever part of it they can for learning or instruction.

I am not sure if anyone has looked at adding "Classes" within the matches, where you could have an "Open Class" which would be run as a lot of matches are run today, and a "Restricted Class" which would be run with a mindset towards Military or LE operations? Also not sure if the Instructors, Pros, or Match Directors have thought about adding "disclaimers" basically stating, "This is 3-Gun Competition, not something that should be used in Military or LE applications".

Food for thought, thanks,
M Richardson

I disagree with about 90% of what you said. I know several SF units who are trained by 3 gunners and taught some of the same techniques you think will get you killed. I use several of the techniques training soldiers myself. Most people are smart enough to know the difference between a game and real life.....if you dont want to play, thats fine. 3 Gun has brought more innovation to soldiers than any other "sport" I can think of.

As someone with a little experience in both multigun and "real-world" applications, I strongly believe that the "skill-building" that 3-gun competition provides far outweighs and "bad tactical habits" that might be picked up trying to shoot stages faster. Above all else, to succeed in 3-gun, you have to learn to neutralize targets quickly. That's also a really, really big component of any tactical doctrine I'm familiar with. All the use of cover, team communication, malfunction clearance, transition drills, and weapons retention in the world isn't going to help you much if you can't eliminate threats before they can do bad things to you. Three-gun, hell any sort of competition, certainly has to be kept in perspective: it's no substitute for combat training (nor is it meant to be). However, it's such a great tool for improving the basic mechanics of shooting quickly that it's very worthwhile for any serious student of applied violence.
As for a "Restricted Class" that's geared more toward LE/Mil... I just don't think that would be workable, or fun for that matter. I suppose we could have the shooters break into 10-12 man squads, walk around for a few days, have 50 targets pop up in the middle of the night... let the squad shoot the hell out of all of them in about 30 seconds, clean the poop out of their pants, walk around for a few more days, and then go home.

DanO

The common saying, is that there are two poler ends for types of shooters who shoot at 3 Gun Competitions; the A and the B shooters (for lack of better differentiation).
A shooters are those who treat 3 Gun purely as a game, regardless of their background as LE/MIL/CIVI.
These shooters go out, game the stage as best as possible, and shoot the stage for the best possible time, without any sort of thought as to whether or not their approach is "tactical" or anything of the like.
B shooters are those who treat 3 Gun as a training exercise. These shooters (a group easy to pick out when watching stages shot), tend to employ much more "tactical" styles of shooting. They run guns that are outfitted in duty configurations, shoot from cover, scan while moving, and the like.

Now obviously, the average Joe falls somewhere in between Shooter A and B....his motives for shooting might be simply to get out of the house, shoot for fun, get time behind the gun under stress, etc etc etc

Whatever type of shooter you are doesn't really matter....3 Gun, when broken down, is a GAME.....it is not a tactical training school. Magpul has plenty of those

To modify a game like 3 gun to incorporate some sort of "tactical" or "real world" mentality would in respect, be making a completely new game in itself.

As someone here already pointed out as well, some of the best 3 gunners in the country (IE Daniel Horner), train military personnel.

What it boils down to, is that when you can look at a stage before you shoot it, and know that the bad guys aren't gonna be moving or shooting back, then at that moment, it is obvious that what you are doing is in no way a substitute to actual "tactical" training.

I doubt they are teaching them the techniques that will get them killed, and if they were I am sure they would get called on it because they are dealing with Top Tier personnel. The other big difference here, is that this is an actual training session being provided to a specific audience, which will be tailored to that audience's needs. Per my post above, this is not someone watching a "Training DVD", looking at videos on YouTube, or watching a match.

I know plenty of 18-20 year olds who don't know their @$$ from a hole in the ground when it comes to strategy & tactics. Why, because you are not born with it, and we know what level of initial training most Military & LE personnel receive. To a lot of them, 3-Gun is not a game, it is a "tactical training scenario". Talking to some of those individuals, many of whom will be in harms way shortly, is what brought this up, because they were trying to use what they have seen in 3-Gun matches as a basis for what they were trying to do tactically.

I never said 3-Gun didn't bring value to either the Military or LE professions. I actually have a number of pieces of equipment and modifications made to weapons that came out of 3-Gun. However, not everything that works in 3-Gun, is going to work in the real world. For experienced top tier shooters, it is pretty easy to figure out what most of that is. For new inexperienced shooters, it is not always about what works in the real world when the $#!@ hits the fan, but what have you seen that appears to be the latest & greatest piece of high speed gear.

There is a huge amount of value that 3-Gun shooting brings to the Military & LE communities, as long as it it clear, what part of it is for the game, and what part of it is for the real world. Based on what I have seen recently, those delineations are not always real clear with newer and inexperienced shooters.


Best of Luck,
M Richardson

I appreciate your opinion and point of view. Your avatar is outstanding, RIP brothers.

However, it sounds EXACTLY like "shooting IPSC will get you killed". Which I disagree with. Competition builds gun handling skills, not tactical skills. If a shooter can't recognize that shooting sports are NOT tactical scenario training, I fear they may not have the mental capacity to make life/death decisions anyway. Really. Think about that for a moment. If a shooter is looking for tactical/defensive/LE/mil training there are many instructors that offer that. Matches build gun skills.

Competitive techniques have always bled over to defensive/tactical techniques. Who uses Weaver stance anymore? Why?

Watch the video of the Detriot LE dept getting shot up. What did you learn from watching it? Spend more time shooting strong hand only. What do stage designers sometimes throw into matches? Strong hand only shooting. Do they include a phsycho with a shotgun shooting back? Nope. But we can train on the basic fundamentals of shooting, then for those that want further tactical type training seek out a professional.

3 gun matches are the best bang for the buck to build up ones skills with those weapons. It only a matter of time before I see tactical weak hand shotgun loading from a shell carrier that holds 4 rounds attached via molle to a vest.

After reading your last post I'll add:

Those 18-20 y/o's that don't know their a$$ from a hole in the ground, trying to use youtube 3 gun videos as a basis for their training is equivalent to looking a Climbing catalog and deciding to go lead climb a cliff. It's not the games fault.

Then it is imperative that either you or those in command of these young warrior's delineates those differences. You have to make them understand where all the 3-gun stuff fits into their skills sets. The weapon manipulation techniques and skills used to get fast, multiple hits on threats are a good thing, but the tactics and strategies we use in competition are not intended for real world use. Show them there is a difference between tactics and techniques. For example, make the point that all competitors in 3 gun shoot individually. There are no team concepts or tactics used in 3 gun competition. The idea of working together as a team and not individuals should resonate with them and help them to understand the difference.

USSA-1

The video below IMHO is a great example of what is going on in typical 3-Gun matches, and also a great example of what will get you killed if you tried it in the real world.



In the real world, COVER & CONCEALMENT are not an option unless you are bullet proof! Any, pieing, cornering, or peeking going on? Engagement from cover? NO, just running and gunning, because cardboard does not shoot back.

In the match above, does it matter, no because it is not part of the game. Would it matter if a "cherry" tried this stuff in an A-Stan trench or a felony apprehension in a crack house?

IMHO, you got it, PERSPECTIVE, which many experienced shooters will have and understand, but not necessarily what a 19-20 year old will have coming out of the academy or basic.

I have no doubt that 3-Gun will continue down its current path, because reality is the "practical & tactical” stuff is very difficult to sell. For things like 3-Gun Nation to grow, they need events that can be videotaped easily and audiences can watch easily.

I just hope that in the rush to push it center stage, it does not send out a message that could put some young and inexperienced folks in harm’s way.

Thanks,
M Richardson

One of the greats in IPSC once said " If you keep score, its a game".

In no way should 3 gun, ISPC or IDPA be considered tactical training in any sense of the word.

That said, my shooting and gun handling skills have probably improved 75% since I started competitive shooting in the mid 1980s. I have a better understanding of how I perform under stress and what equipment stands up to the rigors of competitive shooting and the associated high round counts involved in practice and match settings.

3 gun is still in its infancy. No doubt the armchair tacticians, range Nazis and rule lawyers will eventually take all the fun out of it soon enough.

When the cardboard starts shooting back, I quit guys.

It brings me great sorrow to learn that our young soldiers and law enforcement officers are not taught the difference between a game and combat operations or LE activities.

ETA- It may even be a sadder state of affairs to think these people don't know the difference even without being told.

"Tactics" are what you use to survive a fight, or better yet, avoid the fight in the first place.

3-gun, or any other shooting competition for that matter, does not teach "Tactics" but it does teach shooting skills under pressure. Or at least it lets you see how your shooting skills hold up under pressure. The video you show is a perfect example of this. If someone thought they could attack a trench situtation with 15 bad guys (and some hostage targets mixed in) single handed, with a handgun I would have to question their sanity.

Having a person learn to effectively shoot on the move, shoot from different positions with targets at different positions, hit targets while missing hostage targets, handle the weapon safely, and reload safely, are all skills you would want anyone in harms way to learn and be proficient at. Adding all of these skills into one course of fire is fun and challenging, but it aint teaching "Tactics". If a person can't figure that out, then there is a problem that goes far deeper than training will ever remedy.

Competition is simply a test of shooting skills. 3-gun is getting the attention right now because it is fast paced and a lot of fun, plus you get 3 times the shooting pleasure compared to the other shooting disciplines. But it does no more for Tactical Training than highpower shooting does. It is simply a test of skills so take ir for what it is worth.

To the OP, I will also disagree with about 90% of what you have to say. As a combat and flight medic with multiple units, including the 82nd Airborne Division and trained with 3rd & 7th SFG, I'll tell you that the shooting skills and techniques stressed in 3-Gun (and all action based competition shooting) are absolutely applicable in the real world.

In a nutshell:
- If I can initiate engagement faster than my enemy, I will win the fight.
- If I can identify and place effective fire on target faster than my enemy, I will win the fight
- If I can identify multiple threats and transition between them faster, I will win the fight
- If I can effectively engage a target while moving from one position to another, I will win the fight

I did my time on the streets and air of Iraq as well as in the mountains and air of Afghanistan and will tell you with 100% confidence that what kept me alive in a fire fight was the shooting skills I learned from USPSA/IPSC shooting and 3-Gun shooting. Big Army didn't teach me ANYTHING I needed to win a fight and certainly didn't teach me and those around me how to shoot. I learned it in competition and in a dynamic, (self-imposed) stressed environment. Those lessons of emotional, mental and physical control of my shooting platform(s) is what allowed me to reinforce and defend positions as well as allowed me to do my job and bring a lot of people care that kept them alive.

So...in a nutshell, while I respect that a MOD wanted you to post it, I can say that the results of the conversations that I have had and teaching that I have done to operators when at Bragg after I handed them their ass at Range 14 and at other shooting venues, shows me that tactics are one thing, being able to shoot fast, accurate and in a dynamic environment is another. Nothing replaces trigger time and at the end of the day, if you compete and shoot 500-1k rounds a month out of your chosen platform, you WILL be a better shooter.

As for the divisions within the sport. You as an individual, make the sport what you want of it. If you want to use your gear and train as you fight, NO ONE is stopping you from doing so. 2008, cadets from West Point came to the Ft. Benning 3-Gun Challenge and shot with all their battle rattle including their IBA. No bitching about where they finished...they just shot the match (either for fun or as a training opportunity). If you want a separate division just so you can win an award for Top Restricted, then your ENTIRE point of bashing 3-Gun as a competition platform is moot as it shouldn't be about the trophy, the engagement order or the gear. If you roll in with your kit and take twice as long as the next guy...it doesn't matter. It's not what YOU'RE there for. We have many SWAT agencies that show up at our matches with full gear on because we facilitate an opportunity to ring out their gear in various shooting positions and in a 'stress' environment of time and competitiveness amongst one another.

I understand completely that what you are saying is that there is not an emphasis on cover, concealment, effective fire and use of real world gear. You're right. It's a game and we're here to play it. If you're not, don't or start your own. 3-Gun has been going on for a very long time (some of us shot the SOF matches) and is not likely to ever go away, even if the current trend dies. That said, when I teach military, LE, PSD or folks that want to learn better firearms manipulation, there is a clear line drawn (and I'm fairly certain this is universal across many instructors) between shooting technique and SOP's. My job is to make them better shooters in a physical, mental and emotional sense. SOP's are team/unit specific and that is their trainer's job to teach and reinforce. Some of the best lessons I have learned to this day about being a better shooter came from Kyle Lamb of Viking Tactics. BTW...met him at a USPSA pistol match in Louisiana. If it was a waste of time, I doubt he'd be participating in it.

Rich

Most of these matches are set up as if the shooter was a bullet proof Terminator robot. You get the best score by completely disregarding the fact that you are subject to return fire and charge through the course of fire with no regard to cover or concealment, that eats up time and lowers your score.

It is a game. A game that has saved a few peoples lives.

I'm not a cop or military, but I know some of each who have learned what they said are valuable lessons in 3-gun matches.

Aimless, I get what you're saying, but to be honest I think that just about every 3-gun stage I've ever seen would be pretty "unwinnable" in the real world. If you put together a sim-gun scenario where one poor bastard had to take on 30 or so shooters that know he's coming, do you honestly think that all the "tactical correctness" in the world would let him prevail?

DanO

I've seen carbine and pistol stages that were somewhat plausible, like come down a hallway and there are three 'guys" in a room. It would be nice in a perfect world if you got more points by shooting them in a manner so as to minimize their chance of hitting you, vs. just busting into the room like Iron Man and hosing them down. I don't know how you would do that though.

We're getting somewhat off topic here. Just because most of the competitors aren't thinking about "real-world" applications when they shoot doesn't mean that you can't. As I said originally, IMHO the value of multigun competition as a skill-building tool far outweighs any bad habits that even a modicum of training could correct. You (Aimless) say that it might help with trigger control and target transitions... well, once everything's gone tits up and the fight has commenced, trigger control and target transitions are about 90% of what's going to keep you alive. It doesn't matter how many "combat skills" you have mastered, if you can't hit targets fast enough to keep them from hitting you, you're in a world of hurt. Are skills like movement to cover, commo, weapon transitions, malfunction clearing, etc. important in the "real world"? Absolutely, but not as important as putting lead in bad guys before they kill you.
A scenario where you have to beat 40 or so other drivers in a 500 mile race is pretty implausible in the real world. But I'm pretty sure the guy who wins the Indy 500 can drive the hell out of a car.

DanO

The trigger time and weapons manipulation inherent in timed tactical games trumps most bad tactics.

3 gun comps are not a shooters ethics course. They are not a cover and concealment environment.

I agree: training to go over a wall, low and fast is proper. Pie slicing, and paning high and low is proper. Slipping the funnel in a hallway and traveling " guns up" is proper.

But 3 gun is not the place for that "rule" book.

Why not?

Because it is a fantasy shooting environment.

Will that "fantasy " world get men applying speed gun techniques killed?

Almost never:



It is prooven: action beats reaction every time.

Trigger control and magazine reloads don't mean much if you run into a room like it's a IPSC match and get a rifle bullet through your skull I would bet a lot more people have died from not using cover and concealment properly than from not being able to do a lightning fast reload.

Aimless: Squad up with some other guys if you think the ones you've shot with are weak in weapon awareness. That sounds like a safety issue there. I can tell you that my "jam maintanence" and weapon awareness has never been better. My desire to win keeps me up at night. Getting DQ'd for a 180 violation or hand sweep is a bad way to loose a match.

Knowing the status of the weapon in use is just another element of competition. Of course that is another element that crosses over as well. Knowing what the rifle or shotgun feels like when it runs dry, without having to look, for example. You can only get that with trigger time. Doing it on the clock you will make mistakes that you may not make in practice.

Sounds like you should try IDPA multi-gun. It has more of the elements you are looking for.

I would bet money that put into a force on force confrontation, and I base this on having seen it happen, most guys who are practicing all the time for gun games would lose their pistol to an aggressive opponent who is relatively close to them.

I'm not talking about safe weapon handling. Although I was surprised at a match that one of the RO's for a shoot house made a surprised comment that I and the people I was with were manipulating the safety in between firing and moving between rooms I would think that even a-gungame only guys do that and b-why the fuck wasn't he telling people to do that.

[quote]Originally Posted By Aimless:

you will just act differently in a real fight-I can tell you that even after hours of instruction and much practice I was still fighting to not automatically extend my pistol completely out when firing when in a class that was teaching retention and close in fighting with a handgun.[/div][/div]


Sounds like you need to shoot more.
The more you shoot, the less attention is needed to manipulate the weapon. You free up mental space for everything else going on around you. Like driving a car. Starting out (16y/o) a LOT of attention is spent on just operating the car, nevermind merging into rush hour traffic, eating a hamburger, putting on make-up, reading a text. Drive a few years, everyday, and you can do all those things AND drive the car. Shooting 3 gun gives you the chance to operate "the vehicle" more often. For me, that's it. If I want to practice pieing corners and overcoming bad guy encounters I'll do it somewhere else.

Alright Aimless (should I really even be having a conversation like this with someone named Aimless for cyrin' out loud?) I'll see your and raise you. All the concealment and cover in the world won't do you any good if you if you burn through your ammo and Haji bashes your skull in with a cinderblock. And way more "gunfights" have been lost because of inability to hit the target fast enough than every other cause (except maybe bad luck) put together.

DanO

Sorry, but I would have thought that my first post would have made it clear, I am not here to crap on 3-Gun competitions or the individuals who choose to participate in them.

My intent of posting here was primarily two fold,
- Raise the question about “the direction” that 3-Gun is going, could it be time to look at other options, such as adding additional classes. This would be another option for individuals who are more focused on tactical operations than run & gun for points and time. IMHO, it’s about offering more options, not about throwing out everything currently going on.
- Most importantly, to try and get anyone involved with 3-Gun competition, be it shooter, match director, or product manufacturer to realize that there are some very impressionable and inexperienced individuals who are watching everything going on with 3-Gun and taking it as the gospel when it comes to tactical operations. This is not the fault of 3-Gun, but it is something that will hopefully be recognized and managed accordingly.

Something that some folks seem to be missing here, I am not talking about Tier 1 Operators or Top Competitors being an issue. If you head down to your local police academy or military base that does basic training, and look at the 18-23 year olds who do well to hit a target, much less do it under stress, quicker than you can blink, and while transitioning from one weapon to another, those are the ones that I am talking about.

Those are the ones that when I ask them “why are you moving that way or shooting that way” I get answers like:
- That is how I won playing Medal of Honor on the XBOX
- That’s how we kicked the other teams @$$ when we were playing Airsoft or Paintball
- That is what I saw on the “Special Operations Show” on the Military Channel
- That is how the DVD I bought online from “Joe Cool Tactical Operator” demonstrated it
- And last but not least, that is how the 3-Gun Shooters do it, and everyone knows they are the fastest and best tactical shooters anywhere
If you have seriously worked with this generation of individuals, then you know exactly where I am coming from. They don’t learn via blood, sweet, and tears doing it over and over again as you would in the real world. They learn via videos, simulators, and anything they can find via Google or YouTube. They are not the ones that will try to learn by shooting a 3-Gun match, but they are the ones that will try to learn by watching it on video. There is nothing wrong with using every avenue of learning that you have access to, as long as you can sort through what is applicable to you and what is not given your situation.

Can a Tier 1 Operator figure out what parts of a 3-Gun match are applicable, sure, if not they would not have made it that far. Can a private 3 months out of basic training and on orders to A-Stan, who is trying to get ready by watching every shooting video he can find on YouTube? Sure some can, but a whole bunch of others will simply mimic what they are seeing, because in their mind it is not clear that they are watching a game and not a tactical training video.

At almost a half a century old, I do well to get out of bed some mornings, much less try to keep up with 20 or 30 year olds shooting a 3-Gun Match. As such I am not the one who is going to do much of anything but hopefully try to get the ones who are involved in the 3-Gun day to day operations to realize the impact that they can have on some shooters.

Just the ramblings of someone who in a 30 year Military & Public Safety career has buried a lot of Brothers who did not need to go, and now watches the new generation coming onboard hoping they will not have to learn the lessons the hard way and pay the ultimate price as those who came before them.

Best of Luck,
M Richardson

OP....I never took it that you were out to crap on anybody. I have debated this stuff to death over the past couple decades on many a gun range.

I'm just breaking it down to nuts and bolts. 3 Gun is a game. Tactical training is serious life or death business.

At first I took a bit of offense to Aimless' call on us as "golf with guns"....but I really prefer that mindset to taking a game too seriously and getting yourself or someone else hurt or killed.

It is really sad to me the young people we depend on do not receive (or possibly do not think they need ) proper training. However, to think they must, can or are willing substitute games (video or otherwise) for real training is a hell of a scary prospect.

After almost 25 years of IPSC, IDPA and now 3 gun I still consider myself really no more than a gamesman....not a warrior. That said, these years have given me knowledge and skills to make me much more capable of defending myself and my family should the need arise. However, my 53 year old ass would probably not last a week in the sandbox.

So should XBOX games come with a "warning, this game does not teach proper tactics for a real gun fight"? How about airsoft/paintball complexes? Maybe any action movie ever made?
I know that when I was 18, I could understand that a game/movie/sport, was not training for a gun fight. Our sport may not teach you how to use proper tactics in a gun fight, I'll agree with that. But if you put an experienced 3-gunner up against an experienced gun fighter with no competion background in a situation that only involved weapons handling, (such as target transitions, clearing a malfunction, reloading, the speed you get on target and engage, ect...), I would bet the farm on the 3-gunner.
3-gun has a definitive place in training. It makes you better with your firearms if nothing else.

Except when it's a real fight you'll snap your pistol out to full extension like you do at the range, get it wrestled away from and end up shot in the head with it because you mistook playing for practicing.

No it wouldn't....I play 3 Gun because I like to go FAST....burn the stage down....not so I can use "tactics".


I have no doubt that the OP was NOT trying to trash 3 gunners.....he makes a valid point, cause we all know there are a few guys at every match who thinks they are the baddest MOFO's on the planet and are gonna go own bad guys in the real world......but that is a problem which they have to deal with...they need to differentiate between what is real life and what isn't. Sadly, whenever this debate is had (and I've had it several times), there are always people who suggest that 3 gun needs to be changed to incorporate tactics.....which is not possible or DESIRABLE

Well that depends on your purpose, if you agree it's just golf with guns, you are right and it's certainly easier to score it that way, however most of these gun games had their roots in training to fight with firearms and some people would still like to have them closer to their roots in being useful in a real fight.

Agreed, gunfighting is not the same thing as sport shooting.

I agree - with the military training I've had, many things you do in three gun would get you killed in combat - and combat shooting will make you lose in 3-gun.

What I think you're missing though is that none of the match directors I've seen advertise their matches as combat training.

Most of us aren't shooting to kill, we're shooting to have fun.

It's a game and I can't think of anyone involved who says otherwise.




By the way, training alone to fight and survive 40 people trying to kill you isn't realistic for anyone but a Medal of Honor recipient.

People post here all the time about how they train by going to three gun matches and will even go on about how it's more useful than taking classes.

There is no way....NONE.....to make 3 Gun any sort of training device beyond its promotion of shooting under stress and weapons handling in my opinion.....

What constitutes being useful in a real gunfight?

Do you limit the equipment competitors use? Do you limit their load out to duty load out only? Do you make shooters shoot every stage blind? Do you force him to move off the line of attack when he encounters targets? Do you fire dummy rounds at the shooter?

It isn't useless by any stretch but depending on the training doctrine you're trying to undertake, it could be harmful.

I do feel that it is kind of implicit that you should not do these things in real life.

(Things like sliding down a zipline to engage dozens of badguys )

Training is not necessarily fun. I'm shooting to have fun and I believe that the vast majority of 3-gunners are shooting to have fun as well.





I for one want 3-gun matches to be as unrealistic as possible. Where else can you do this shit in real life?

If you feel differently though, I'm sure IDPA style 3-gun could be quite popular with some as well. I'm an unapologetic gamer. Games are fun for me.

Fixed.

To the OP, it is a GAME. If you want your own game that involves tactics and real world scenarios, MAKE YOUR OWN FUCKING GAME.

You sound like a whiney parent bitching that the people on TV are a bad infuence on their kids.

I don't know why this post has pissed me off so bad but I wanna kick a a God damn baby right now.

Perhaps this is a context issue. For 3 Gun, currently there are not many training options except matches. Most of the training seems to focus on basic weapon manipulation and employment with a minor in tatics.

3Gun is a game that has benefits for certain professions. The true professionals will know what to take and what to leave.

I'm going to agree with the guys who've posted here so far that actually know from experience what competition shooting does and does not do. Again, it is a game, we realize it's a game. It's a game that teaches speed, accuracy, and weapons manipulation. I've taken a variety of "tactical" classes over the years and I received a fair amount of training during 4 years of active duty. Nothing has improved my shooting and gun-handling like the shooting sports have.

Military personnel and police officers shouldn't need a warning that they shouldn't mistake a match for an actual training course. They have a chain of command that is supposed to be training and mentoring them. If you want to teach shooting, the game works great. If you want to teach tactics, games aren't the way to go about it.

SgtCap and I occasionally compete with the frearms training manager and instructors for FLETC. Those guys teaches firearms (and more) to agents from various alphabet soup agencies and they seem to think that competition is a pretty valuable tool. They don't seem too worried that they'll do something stupid in a gunfight because of the game either. http://www.tactical-life.com/online/tactical-weapons/atf-goes-3-gun/

It's a game.

It is a game that has drastically improved my weapons manipulation, speed with accuracy, malfunction drills, shooting from awkward positions, etc.

Of course it isn't a replacement for actual tactical training for military and police, but it is far better than stapling a paper plate to a target stand and sitting down at the 100 yard bench with some sandbags.


There might be a market for a match that emphasized more tactical and less gamer. Build it and they will come. It would be expensive and difficult to put into a scoring format, but a simunitions stage would be extremely fun. The safety issues would be a nightmare though.


I think the final responsibility for preparing young cops and soldiers for a potentially deadly encounter, lies with their employers. 3-gun matches are put on for fun. Not training.

I was at a match where you had to do something goofy like run and pull a toy dagger out of a wall to open a door then shoot something, I forget it was supposed to be some Indiana Jones take off.

I must share with you the most unrealistic target I have ever shot:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Qcw5C7V8Z4&t=3m13s
(I'm not the shooter)

Yes, a shoot target on top of a no-shoot swinger...

If you are ever attacked by an evil zombie baby strapped to the chest of an innocent break-dancing woman next to two innocent people, you will not be prepared unless you are a 3-gunner.

Hey! That's me shooting!

I shot the innocent breakdancing woman twice btw.

I've weighed in on this subject several times on the intarwebs, so I'll throw my .02c in here... This is purely from a LE perspective.

My background: 10 years of tactical training, from Thunder Ranch to Paul Howe to my Agency courses. 10 years of competition shooting from IDPA to USPSA to 3 gun to NRA LE TPC & PPC.

My observations:
1. Cops who compete are better shooters. (Some) Cops who do not compete THINK they are good shooters.
2. Training is where you learn the skills that you will use in a fight. Competition and force on force training are the only places I've ever seen that actually TEST those skills you have learned. When you compete, your deficiencies are exposed glaringly. If you learn from that, you will grow leaps and bounds as a shooter. It is better to fail in training and competition than in real life.
3. Competition does not employ tactics. Tactics do not work in competition. If you are versed in tactics, this is very obvious. If you are not versed in tactics, you will get your ass handed to you in force on force, no matter how good you are.
4. Competition ingrains confidence in ability, muscle memory, confidence in equipment, and top notch safety and gun handling.
5. After competing and polishing your skill set, you will get much more out of training tactics.

I'll give you an example.

We did night time force on force training recently. They handed you a sim gun with two rounds loaded in it, and a spare mag with two rounds in it. You did not load them so you were unaware how much was loaded. You were told to clear the building, fix the problem, etc. Oh yeah - and there were unarmed folks you had to address with a taser. I shot a gun with a knife and blacked out to move to another position. I thought "hm, I should tac reload here so I have a topped off weapon ... I've got cover, a lull in the fight, and I don't know how many more bad guys are there". I started my reload (in the dark) and realized my gun was empty. good thing I thought about it. I don't think I would have had the same thought process were it not for competition....... I also made all my hits, while focusing on addressing the bad guy, scanning, pieing corners, etc....

One last comment: A timer is a magical device. It apparently has the ability to impart incredible stress upon the person who is under it, similar to when "Bad Things Happen". Those who are comfortable under the timer function well under stress.

Competition is good. Training is good. Together, they are top notch.
Doc

What he said.

DrNo: thank you for your contribution.

This has been a fun topic to discuss with many assumtions thrown around. The assumtion that since I compete in 3 gun and don't think it's tactical training, I must not have ever had any tactical training. Aimless, it doesn't take me all day, with many hours of practice, to pull off a "from retention" draw and shoot under stress. Implying an extended draw will get you shot in the head actually made me laugh out loud. Thanks for that. But that's a good topic for another thread, not in 3 gun.

Originally Posted By Aimless:
If I am ever attacked by a windmill while on a rope bridge I will be ready.

I see two lessons that can be drawn from that.

While attending a 3 gun match this last fall with my older brother (who served in Afghanistan in 2003) this topic was sort of brought up by some duffas trying to pooh pooh on everyones day. He said this is terrible training and it would teach you to fight out in the open and get killed. My brother who was in combat on more than a few occasions finally chimed in and said once a bullet zips by your head you will be diving for any cover you can find to fight from.
So to all the pooh poohers out there shut up it's a fun time shooting and it isn't teaching anyone anything that will kill them. At least they are learning how to manipulate there weapon systems and shoot at things and hit them.

These kind of debates are what I hate about gun games.
Just because we use guns in it, some people want to make it into some kind of combat training.

3-Gun is a game, a hell of a fun game.

Military and Police use guns as tools of their trade, I don't
They need to train for real life, I don't.
I shoot for fun and recreation. I don't care about how long I'd last in a firefight because
I will never be in one. If someone who must engage in gun combat can't tell the difference
between serious training and a game, they're going to get killed by doing something else stupid
because they have a very low mental capacity.

I think a lot of wannabe "operators" don't like 3-Gun because they really can't shoot, and they prefer to
take tactical courses and talk about how uber-tactical they are. Put those guys in front of a
Texas Star and they just piss themselves as they run out of ammo. Note, I said "wannabe", I've
shot with some real-deal guys and they do just fine.

Competitive shooting has made my gun-handling skills far better than they otherwise would be, and
believe me, if the zombies come I'll hold my own.

Best thing on here. When you know how to shoot, you're no longer, thinking about shooting....you're just shooting. Do you think about when you are walking to your front door, to grab the right key, ensure its precise positioning in the keyhole and which direction to turn, life or jiggle the handle? No. You can without looking at your key ring, find the right (quickly), manipulate it into the position it needs to and complete this action without looking at the door and likely under a lot of distraction. THAT'S the lesson that trigger time (and for me) practical shooting competitions have done. The shooting and psychomotor manipulations and handling the weapons platforms are literally secondary to the bigger picture because when in a shoot environment, I don't think about the shooting, I think the problem/threat, etc. in front of me. The shooting will happen (mechanically speaking) correctly, because I've done it tens or hundreds of thousands of times.

Rich

Last time I checked those uber super elite zombie hunters didn't come out of their mother knowing much of anything "military" until they went through the same basic training course. Just 'cause you have a Tower of Power doesn't make you a better shooter, ability to be a better shooter or magically survive or adapt to a gunfight any better. As a MEDEVAC flight medic, I can tell you that I had as many if not more "Tier 1" guys in my care as line guys and they all bleed the same.



Ever think you're the cause of the snarky/smart a@@ responses?



I would wager a good sum of money that the number of soldiers seeking training on a Youtube video is pretty small; especially pre-deployment. Odds are, like most young males, he's trying to get drunk, laid or both.




And here's the real reason this whole discussion happens. Age is a number and while you may have more miles on the body than those in your inner circle, it comes down to an excuse IMHO. Go look at Rob Leatham and how he continues to dominate and entire segment of the shooting sports with two surgically repaired knees (that are still pretty much garbage) and being (by his own definition) grossly out of shape to "keep up with the kids". Magically he's still more accurate and faster. How is that possible? Why do the guys at Bragg (all the "Tier 1" units) still ring his phone off the hook to have him teach them how to be better shooters? He's not an operator, gun slingin' zombie killer. What could he teach anyone?

Rich

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