Leafing through an old magazine from November I came across this artilce on the Compak-16.  Googling it there was a DefRev article about it dated today, but it didn't say much.  The mag article says the rifle's barrel features "gain twist, polygonal rifling and a new steel alloy that together provide improved velocity and accuracy for a barrel of a given length, along with at least four times the barrel life."  Accuracy claimed is 1 MOA (@ 100)  from a 9.5 inch barrel.  The article futher states that the rifle features a vastly improved "gas trap system" inspired by the M1 Garand, which is much more effective than the standard AR gas system particularly in SBRs.

Anyway after typing all that I hope someone knows about this thing, and can give some legitimate feedback.  Supposedly some are running around SE Asia.  
Please save the "I saw a picture of it and ______ ."

Cheers

Mach6 is the only one I know of that has hands-on time with this system.  He speaks very highly of it, the gun rag article was no BS job.  I just wish Armstech would announce they're opening sales to civilians.  

Nobody has anything on this huh?


Cheers

I don't think they have any civilian sales -- it'a all LEO, military and foreign sales.  They have some of the most revolutionary products, yet they don't get the attention.  If they started offerring uppers for civilian sales, then you'd hear more about them.

Joe R is thinking of civilian sales.  He is busy with contracts to several M East friendly countries and is a little more concerned about that.  Now that the AWB ban is gone he could go for civilian sales, but wants the military contracts.  Believe me, of all the new M-4 uppers his is the best.  His revolutionary rifling and the silencer it supports is absolutely the best there is.

That would be great news.  I hope it happens.

Quoted: Joe R is thinking of civilian sales.  He is busy with contracts to several M East friendly countries and is a little more concerned about that.  Now that the AWB ban is gone he could go for civilian sales, but wants the military contracts.  Believe me, of all the new M-4 uppers his is the best.  His revolutionary rifling and the silencer it supports is absolutely the best there is.

============
Threefeathers is quite correct.  I wish Joe luck with his Mid East deal.  Lord knows he's worked long and hard on it.  Yeah, I've had a COMPAK-16 upper for quite a while on my issue M-4 lower and it absolutely rocks.  Utterly reliable and deadly accurate.  If you want one as a civilian, you'll have to already have a Title II NFA host weapon, or at least that was company policy as I knew before being called up last year.  I've got it with me here at Hohenfels, GE and it was quite a hit on the range last week with the local 1-4 Inf troops.  

This was never considered for SCAR or any contract like that?  1'' @ 100yrds with a 9.5 inch AR is nuts!

Cheers

Nah, Arms Tech LTD never had a fair chance at SCAR...much like most other small US firearms companies.  It was a real pity as the taxpayer would have saved a bundle and the AT LTD SCAR would be roling off the assembly lines as we speak.

You see, NSWC-Crane only wanted to play with the big firms.  The documentation requirements for the SCAR BAA ran 128 pages!  What small firm can wade through that?  Gov't solicitations are often constructed in such a way to preclude the small entrepreneur through the use of sand bag filler requirements in the form of documentation.

And yes, around 1.0 MOA at 100 yards is nuts...even more so after 24,000 rounds through the weapon...but very real with this amazing piece.  And don't forget 2,700 fps with M193 ball or TAP, either.    

Quoted: Nah, Arms Tech LTD never had a fair chance at SCAR...much like most other small US firearms companies.  It was a real pity as the taxpayer would have saved a bundle and the AT LTD SCAR would be roling off the assembly lines as we speak. You see, NSWC-Crane only wanted to play with the big firms.  The documentation requirements for the SCAR BAA ran 128 pages!  What small firm can wade through that?  Gov't solicitations are often constructed in such a way to preclude the small entrepreneur through the use of sand bag filler requirements in the form of documentation. And yes, around 1.0 MOA at 100 yards is nuts...even more so after 24,000 rounds through the weapon...but very real with this amazing piece.  And don't forget 2,700 fps with M193 ball or TAP, either.

That's with a 9.5" barrel, absolutely awesome.  Any idea what velocities are obtained through their 14.5" rifle length barrel, Recon Rifle IIRC is what they call it?  Do they approach velocities obtained through standard rifled 20" barrels?

I called a couple months ago and was told that as long as I had all my NFA things in order before purchase he could ship it to my FFL in a couple days.  I wasn't asked if I was LEO or military...anything.  Things may have changed in that time, but I hope not...I've been savin my pennies(between other purchases) and am over half way ($) toward a Compak 16 upper.
Looks like an awesome product and I've heard nothing but good about them.

Sparky

Do you have any contact info to get ahold of these people? Web sight?

Am interested but don't know how to contact them

Thanks,

shooter100

Another question is how much does the upper receiver cost?

Thanx.
Sammy

Joe is trying to get one of my students to set up his web site.  I just talked to him and no civilian sales just yet.  He did get one of the Middle East contracts.  We will probably go to dinner next week to celebrate.  He wanders around this site fairly often completely incognito.

Good to hear he got something going with the CK-16 OCONUS.  Nice to hear someone will give him some help at long last on his web site.  When you go to dinner next week, just let him know the COMPAK is running great.  He knows who I am.  

Quoted: Sparky Do you have any contact info to get ahold of these people? Web sight? Am interested but don't know how to contact them Thanks, shooter100

----------
Tel. 602 272-9045
Fax. 602 272-1922

He just called.  I'll call back after I eat dinner and let him know about you.  

BTW, let Joe know I went out to the range today with the COMPAK-16 and went through about three hundred rounds of German GI issue 5.56mm SS109.  The Bundeswehr guys found it a lot more controllable and far more accurate than their limited issue G-36K.

I just watched the video from DefRev...the resolution was too hard to see well, but from what everyone is saying in this thread, it must be pretty cool.

Joe just told me that he has developed a way to have a modular barrel that aligns the lands and grooves perfectly.  He will market a long range rifle that breaks into a 12 inch package.

Yes, Joe told me about that project before I went back AD.  I wish him luck with that one, too.  

Joe says to say hello.  I plan to put one of his uppers on a BM lower later this year.  I'll take it to Ft. Huachuca and watch the envy.

Threefeathers -- Great! You'll love that CK-16.  You might want to consider his Recon Rifle, depending on what you'll use it for.  I met with some Civil Affairs guys from Bragg today who actually knew about the COMPAK-16.  Passed on AT LTD's contact info.  This one CA 0-5 said it would be just the ticket for their lower-profile kinda jobs when things go south with the locals and the M-9 won't get it and the M-4 is just too big. Know what I mean?  BTW, the Bundeswehr guys that played with it yesterday also really went nuts for the Vortex flash hider on this thing, too.  We were shooting close to about 1630 hrs and it was getting dark.  The open straight flute flash hiders on their short-barreled G-36K's didn't seem to do all that much and the Vortex proved to be far more efficient.  We all used BW GI 5.56mm. Going to Huachuca, eh? Are you an MI guy as well?  

I was a spook with 297th MID of the 19th Group for a number of years.  Joe and I are friends from nearly 30 years with Sensei Shojiro Koyama and Shotokan Karate.  I just like to shoot and made it to the All Army level of competition at Benning 7 times in my career.

Have any of you guys read the thread about the LW gas rifle?  How does it compare to the ArmsTech system?

Cheers

ETA: Is ArmsTech going to be at the Shot Show?

No, I only saw the LW design at a SHOT show a while back.  Good product and good people.  However, I think it is more complicated that the Arms Tech LTD product because of the use of an op rod system.  Also, I don't have a clue as to reliability or accuracy. However, from first hand experience over several years with the AT LTD COMPAK-16 I can only say it does everything I would want in a package like this. Keep in mind that the AT LTD system uses a gas trap together with a modification to Gene Stoner's direct impingement gas tube design.  It's elegance is in it's simplicity.  The gas trap acts like a scavenging system or even much like a bore evacuator on a major caliber piece.  As a result, the problems of fouling, early timing, etc. that are associated with short-barreled AR-type designs is a thing of the past.  Also, by not having a gas port in the conventional sense, it is remarkably accurate, as stated earlier.
No, I won't be at the SHOT Show this year as I'm deployed overseas.  Luckily, I have my COMPAK-16.  Just hope I can bring back home.  

Has anyone brought up the idea of using 1/7 or 1/8 twist rifling or selling just barrels to the public?

Quoted: Quoted: Nah, Arms Tech LTD never had a fair chance at SCAR...much like most other small US firearms companies.  It was a real pity as the taxpayer would have saved a bundle and the AT LTD SCAR would be roling off the assembly lines as we speak. You see, NSWC-Crane only wanted to play with the big firms.  The documentation requirements for the SCAR BAA ran 128 pages!  What small firm can wade through that?  Gov't solicitations are often constructed in such a way to preclude the small entrepreneur through the use of sand bag filler requirements in the form of documentation. And yes, around 1.0 MOA at 100 yards is nuts...even more so after 24,000 rounds through the weapon...but very real with this amazing piece.  And don't forget 2,700 fps with M193 ball or TAP, either.     That's with a 9.5" barrel, absolutely awesome.  Any idea what velocities are obtained through their 14.5" rifle length barrel, Recon Rifle IIRC is what they call it?  Do they approach velocities obtained through standard rifled 20" barrels?

WOW!

THAT LIKE THE VELOCITY OF A -
20"A2!
14.5"M4!
11.5'' Commando!

And in the article I read, the writer said the 1in9" twist was far better than the 1in7" cause the current milspec 1in7" will cause 55grn. M193 to sefl destruct from overspin.

I would like to see a head to head, exact length, same operating system comparison to see how much increased velocity is actually acheived with the progressive twist rifling though.



Tex78

I was waiting for that. [popcorn]

If anyone is interested, I can do an actual head to head comparison on the Arms-Tech Compak 16 against 10.3" CBE/CMMG, 11.5"Colt, 14.5" CBE/CMMG, and 7.3" CBE/CMMG uppers. I can provide accuracy and velocities out to 100 yds. Everyone let me know what all they want to see and i will do an comparison.
Chris Bell

That would be wonderful.

How 'bout with the popular ammo's:  XM193, Q3131A, M855?

I would still like to see a head to head using same op sys to see if there is any free-bore boost, like a suppressor boost with the gas trap system as well, but I guess I'll have to be patient.

Tex78

Quoted: That would be wonderful. How 'bout with the popular ammo's:  XM193, Q3131A, M855? I would still like to see a head to head using same op sys to see if there is any free-bore boost, like a suppressor boost with the gas trap system as well, but I guess I'll have to be patient. Tex78

Dont forget "WOLF" Its very popular.
Me use Wolf. Wolf good. Me like

Quoted: Quoted: That would be wonderful. How 'bout with the popular ammo's:  XM193, Q3131A, M855? I would still like to see a head to head using same op sys to see if there is any free-bore boost, like a suppressor boost with the gas trap system as well, but I guess I'll have to be patient. Tex78 Dont forget "WOLF" Its very popular. Me use Wolf. Wolf good. Me like

Happy happy!

Quoted: If anyone is interested, I can do an actual head to head comparison on the Arms-Tech Compak 16 against 10.3" CBE/CMMG, 11.5"Colt, 14.5" CBE/CMMG, and 7.3" CBE/CMMG uppers. I can provide accuracy and velocities out to 100 yds. Everyone let me know what all they want to see and i will do an comparison. Chris Bell

That would be absolutely awesome.  In case you have any 68 BH, that would be a nice addition.  BTW, do you have access to Armtech's 14.5" rifle length barrel?  Supposedely they claim velocities comparable to 20" barreled weapons.  That's the one I'm really interested in, same loads if you have it to test.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Nah, Arms Tech LTD never had a fair chance at SCAR...much like most other small US firearms companies.  It was a real pity as the taxpayer would have saved a bundle and the AT LTD SCAR would be roling off the assembly lines as we speak. You see, NSWC-Crane only wanted to play with the big firms.  The documentation requirements for the SCAR BAA ran 128 pages!  What small firm can wade through that?  Gov't solicitations are often constructed in such a way to preclude the small entrepreneur through the use of sand bag filler requirements in the form of documentation. And yes, around 1.0 MOA at 100 yards is nuts...even more so after 24,000 rounds through the weapon...but very real with this amazing piece.  And don't forget 2,700 fps with M193 ball or TAP, either.     That's with a 9.5" barrel, absolutely awesome.  Any idea what velocities are obtained through their 14.5" rifle length barrel, Recon Rifle IIRC is what they call it?  Do they approach velocities obtained through standard rifled 20" barrels? WOW! THAT LIKE THE VELOCITY OF A - 20"A2! 14.5"M4! 11.5'' Commando! And in the article I read, the writer said the 1in9" twist was far better than the 1in7" cause the current milspec 1in7" will cause 55grn. M193 to sefl destruct from overspin. I would like to see a head to head, exact length, same operating system comparison to see how much increased velocity is actually acheived with the progressive twist rifling though. Tex78

I saw the same article.  Kinda laughed at that comment the author wrote, I just can't imaging shredding a 55 FMJ due to overspinning it at 2,700 fps.  But the article did say the Compak-16 bettered a "pristine" (author's words) 14.5" M4 shooting SS109.  2703 vs 2697 fps, with 5" less barrel.

I called Armstech this week and asked for any info they could send me.  I'm expecting a package in the mail sometime next week -- when it arrives, I will share info.  

I was told by the tech their testing showed the 1 in 9" worked better when shooting lighter bullets.  He didn't clarify that XM193 was the lightest they tested, so they may have gone down to 50 grain, light jacketed bullets for all I know.  With heavier stuff being more popular/effective, I would like to see what a 1 in 8" or 1 in 7" might be able to do -- I would be gladly be willing to give up shooting 50 grain ballistic tips to be able to shoot 75 grain OTM.

If anyone is interested

Absolutely!  Any chance you could snap some pictures of the gear, targets, and anything else interesting?

Cheers

I will shoot XM193, SS109, Hornady TAP(75gr), as well as Blended Metal (36gr). I won't be shooting any WOLF or any other steel cased ammo, I only see a need to shoot quality ammo for this test, plus none of my weapons see WOLF, sorry. Pics are no problem, I can take pics of all of the uppers before I shoot, its warm inside, I will shoot later this week when it warms up. I will be using a PACT chronograph for all of the test. Any other special request?
Chris Bell

This test would be terrific!  I haven't tried any of the other systems, as I only know my own COMPAK-16/M-4A1 hybrid.  Your efforts will be much appreciated.

For the sake of board members who don't have such huge ammo budgets, would you reconsider the Wolf? It is an important consideration for a number of shooters.

It's definitely not going to hurt things, and it could provide a basis for understanding the robustness of the system. A number of marginal weapons setups can't tolerate the lower power of Wolf; I'd be interested to see if the COMPAK's gas system can handle lighter loads.

Sorry, but I won't run any steel cased ammo in any of my barrels, I'm not just picking on wolf, I'm talking about all steel cased ammo. Steel cases are hard on Chambers. I have a Barrel that I use for demo that has only had steel cases run thru it, after 7800rds of full auto the chrome chamber would lockup on a Field Gauge. My demo M16 that has an identical barrel with only xm193 shot in it is still going after over 30,000 rds and will not lockup on the Field Gauge. At 7800 rd barrel life and a $225 barrel that is approx. $.03 per rd. There is only about $.04 per rd difference between Wolf and XM193.  I understand your concern but I don't think the reduced barrel life is worth saving $.04 per round. I'm sure there will be others on here that will argue this, and they are intitled to their opinion. Not trying to cause problems, just make people aware of what I have found thru thousands of rds of testing.
Chris Bell

cbell,
You will be my hero if you do this comparison!

The Armstech sure sounds like the ONLY shorty to have.
Improved reliability, velocity, accuracy, and longevity.

I guess they could improve it by making it cure cancer, but that's about all they haven't done with it.

Quoted: Sorry, but I won't run any steel cased ammo in any of my barrels, I'm not just picking on wolf, I'm talking about all steel cased ammo. Steel cases are hard on Chambers. I have a Barrel that I use for demo that has only had steel cases run thru it, after 7800rds of full auto the chrome chamber would lockup on a Field Gauge. My demo M16 that has an identical barrel with only xm193 shot in it is still going after over 30,000 rds and will not lockup on the Field Gauge. At 7800 rd barrel life and a $225 barrel that is approx. $.03 per rd. There is only about $.04 per rd difference between Wolf and XM193.  I understand your concern but I don't think the reduced barrel life is worth saving $.04 per round. I'm sure there will be others on here that will argue this, and they are intitled to their opinion. Not trying to cause problems, just make people aware of what I have found thru thousands of rds of testing. Chris Bell

thank you!!

Remember guys, Joe R is a Doctor, a grad of Georgetown, give him time, he will cure cancer.  Now to find him a wife with big tits.

I hear doctors can make big-titted wives.

Quoted: Has anyone brought up the idea of using 1/7 or 1/8 twist rifling or selling just barrels to the public?

Same question.  

About a twist quicker than 1 in 9".  The company spokesman I talked to last week said quicker twists overspun lighter weight projectiles to the point of jacket failure in flight.  He didn't specify if 55 FMJ-BT was the projectile in question, or if it was a lighter weight pill with a thinner jacket.  I would gladly give up the ability to shoot lighter than XM-193 if I could shoot 75/77 grain stuff in return.  On the other hand, if the velocity gains are true, and if the Recon Rifle package delivers velocities close to 20" std barrels, then I would suspect the Recon Rifle would stabilize 75/77 grain stuff for a few hundred yards at least.  That of course would need to be demonstrated.

Also got their brochure today for their Recon Rifle.  Specs are as follows:

14" SS barrel, polygonal gain-twist rifling, end twist of 1 in 9"
Barrel is fluted, manganese phosphate std (other finishes available)
7 lbs, 1 oz with empty 30 round mag
36" fully extended, 32.5" collapsed
Cyclic rate between 550 and 600 rpm

Upper appears very 'Dissipator-esque" in appearance.  Looks like FL guards terminating right at the gas trap which is at the muzzle.  There is maybe 0.5 - 1.0" max between the end of the gas trap and the muzzle.  Front sight base is Picatinny spec, so you'd need to add a folding BUIS.  There's no indication that a fixed tower is an option but maybe one could be had that way -- they'd have to incorporate that though into the gas trap itself.  Upper is flattop, with Picatinny rail.

Lastly, the cover letter says they are currently selling to folks with registered M-16s or SBRs only, but they expect to offer a civilian version identical to Recon Rifle, but semi-auto only.  They are in the process of obtaining BATF approval to do so.  I can only assume that such a barrel would incorporate a permanently attached FS to make the 16.1 minimum length.  No prices quoted.

Standard config includes lowers fitted w/Duck Bill pistol grip, muzzles fitted with Vortex Tiger Shark supressor.  Again, maybe there are custom options that could be worked out with them.

No mention of selling just barrels/gas traps/gas tubes (which I believe are proprietary) to those that want to build their own.  No velocity test data, no accuracy data included.

This thread is so tagged for cbell's results.

tagged

tagged again

Will someone please post ArmsTech's contact information.

Thanx.
Sammy

Quoted: Will someone please post ArmsTech's contact information. Thanx. Sammy

Arms Tech Ltd.
5133 North central Ave
Phoenix, AZ  85012

Voice:  (602) 272-9045
Fax:     (602) 272-1922
email: [email protected]
website:  To Be Developed