Quoted: Quoted: US optics isn't realy US optics, it's realy JAP! Good Shootin, Jack What you mean? Where did you hear that?

Jack:

The last time I checked Buena Park, CA is in the USA. Have you been talking to Charles Schumer or Barbara Streisland?

Now if you want really good Japanese glass, try the Leupold CQ/T!

I have noticed that when looking through a TA31 or TA11 ACOG and using the BAC feature with the donut reticle that the donut often appears to be a big red dot instead of a circle when swinging on to target.  However when you are looking through the scope the reticle is never blurry.  Now there is an issue with the TA01 and TA01NSN reticle being blury on the right side.  That has to do with how the reticle is superimposed/reflected at an angle onto your field of view inside the scope.  This causes the right side of the reticle to be focused beyond infinity and always appear slightly out of focus.  The BAC scopes dont have this issue.  Also keep in mind the greater your eye relief is with a BAC scope the smaller the magnified view will be and the greater your awareness of your surroundings will increase.  How much you can shift your head left or right depends upon the exit pupil of the optic.  The greater it is the more room you have to allow for head movement off center.  That said even a TA11 which has greater eye relief and exit pupil than the TA31 is only slightly better in CQB ranges than the TA31 while the Aimpoint has unlimited eye relief and about triple the exit pupil (ok technically its not like a real exit pupil but you can move your head 3x as much before losing the sight picture)

Also remember that the BAC function of your scope is NOT the same as a dot sight.  When you swing a dot sight onto a moving target where the dot appears is where the bullet hits.  On a BAC scope depending on how much of an angle your head is leaning and how far apart your eyes are the BAC dot you see superimposed will be off by a couple of inches.  If you just want to hit center mass that is not a big deal but you need to learn how much the dots point of impact is off for you.  

Let me give you an example.  If you use the BAC to place the reticle on a guys shirt button in the middle of his chest at 15yds then use the magnified view in your dominant eye you may actually be aiming at his shirt pocket off to the right (for a right eyed person) about 2 inches.  It takes just a split second to correct for this.  This difference in the magnified vs unmagnifed view and the smaller zone you can move your eye in relative to the scope are the ONLY two drawbacks to a BAC scope.  If you learn to compensate for the difference in views and keep a half assed decent cheekweld it is every bit as fast and accurate as an aimpoint up close but it will take practice.

anybody know a good place to buy a TA31? going to get one know after i sell my TA01.

I'm waiting to see the new trijicon 1x-4x coming next year so i'm told.

Talk to me Girard, I haven't heard anything about this. Info man, INFO! Thanks.....Chad

CRS188.weeks back a Gun gear distributor who shoots and  rubs elbows with notables and reps first told me that rumor, for 2003 .Then last week while attending a match another shooter mentioned it also.he said it would have a chevron retical  after talking to a insider.

Good prices on ACOG's at www.Sableco.net and of course www.SWFA.com.

There are a boatload of varieties (3 different magnifications for Compact ACOG's and now 3 different ACOG's, each available with several reticles and different bases.)  Make sure you get one that will fit your needs!   Just bought another rifle so I have to postpone the ACOG untill after Christmas now.....

sure wish that link worked, sounds like the type of set up im looking for, would sure like to see it. i found a website for "docter optic"
they had one pic with it mounted on a pistol. and no picks of any mounts for a AR, how do they expect me to buy somthing from them when they wont even show what it looks like  $%*&^%#$

ah never mind, just read docter optic is 7MOA, i guess ill just stick with eotech and co witness irons

This would be a good post to get "tacked"

Take a look at IOR's new offering. You can have illuminated dot at 1X for close work and 3.8 for longer range.

AWESOME info, guys, and what an info-mercial for Trijicon!

Just one dumbass question here: durability? Trij claims you can pretty much beat the piss out of these things. True?

If so, I'm gonna get on the waiting list for one - by the time I can get it, maybe I can afford it!

Coupla things; One is that my first order of business as a new co-mod of the optics forum will be to tack this excellent thread to the top. At least until we can get a FAQ if sorts up and running.

Second is, yeah, ACOGs are all built tough as heck. At the BRC last year, I was talking to one of their reps. He showed me a Reflex II that was all scrached to heck. Everything still worked in perfect order, but it looked mega rough. He saw me looking at the scraches etc and told me one of their guys took it off his rifle and threw it accross the concrete. When they asked him why, his reply was something like he just wanted to see what would happen.

My own Reflex, TAO1nsn and TA31 have been through quite a bit. Lots of knocking around, transport, classes, countelss drills, a few falls, etc. Still tough as nails.

Thanks, arguy! That's what I thought and hoped to hear. Now to find one ... I think I've settled on TA44R-4, the compact 1.5X16 red crosshair with BAC, unless one of you talks me into something else.

(It'll go on a 16" E2 flattop)

HI,

I have not as much as experience as many here, but I think a Aimpoint would be fine. If you notice most the men over in Iraq right now have them. A Aimpoint can hit out to 300 yards, I think that is fine for what a 223 is used for.God Bless the men and women over in Iraq fighting for all of us. Thanks,Kev

If [i]I[/i] were going to give up the unlimited eye relief of the Aimpoint for magnification, I'd go higher than 1.5x, like 3x at least.  YMMV.

I don't watch the news much ... which Aimpoint is getting the GI use?

And yes, God bless the guys BEHIND those sights.

May they always shoot straight.

Aimpoints in service are the M2 models, I would bet there are still some older Comp M's too.

OK, I know I've been asking a huge number of really stupid questions but I've got another.  I was just looking at the swfa web site and noticed that they have a picture of a compact ACOG on a Steyr Scout rifle.  It is mounted in the forward position!  Is this the eye relief that forgiving?  Which model is that?  Please tell me its the 2x!  If I can mount a 2x that far forward, or even close to that, I'm in!

Once again, there is an inquiry without specifics.    Respondents ASSUME that they have enough information.  So here is the original question with the missing detail indicated.  Then, I will respond.

I’ve got a 16” carbine and I’m looking for a good G.P. scope.

MODEL?
PURPOSE - HOME DEFENSE OR HUNTING.  SHOOTING TARGETS OR SHOOTING ANIMALS.  SHOOTING AT NIGHT OR ONLY IN THE DAY?
ANY BUDGET?
ANY EYE PROBLEMS?
HAVE YOU HAD ANY TRAINING BECAUSE EQUIPMENT IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR SKILLS?

Ideally I’d be looking for something that can go from zero to several hundred meters.

IN MY UNDERSTANDING, SEVERAL HUNDRED METERS IS 600 - 700 YARDS.  UNLESS YOU ARE PUNCHING TARGETS AT THIS RANGE WITH SPECIAL AMMO, YOU ARE GOING BEYOND THE CAPABILITY OF THE ROUND AND RIFLE.

I don’t think such a scope exists though.

YOU ARE RIGHT.  THERE IS NO ONE "GOOD ANSWER".  OPTIC ASSISTANCE IS A TOOL.  YOU HAVE TO KNOW THE APPLICATION.

I’ve seen the posts about ACOGs with the Optima/ Dr. Optik on top, looks like an interesting solution. What about compact ACOGs for mixed ranges? Or Aimpoints at long ranges (around 300-400 yrds)?

NOW YOU HAVE A SPECIFIC QUESTION, SO ANY ONE WITH EXPERIENCE WITH THESE SPECIFIC SCOPES WILL HAVE INFORMATION.  HOWEVER, NOW THE ASSUMPTION IS THAT ONE OF THESE IS A GOOD OPTION AT A LONG RANGE OF 300 - 400 YARDS.  300 - 400 YARDS IS NOT LONG RANGE.

So, any G.P. scope ideas?

Responses - not answers.

Assuming you have a carry handle Ar, let me assume that you are primarily shooting in daytime and may ocassionally shoot in low light.  You are not military and do not intend to fend off a charging horde.

A low power variable compact scope from any of the well known manufacturers may fit your bill.  
Let me address something like the Leupold 2x 7 or 3x9.  NO BATTERIES.  NO SIGNATURE. NO TARGET INDICATOR.  A low power will pick up ambient light in shadows, etc.  I have shot a laser measured 240 yards in a class wherein everyone used the low end of their variable scopes under the following conditions.  2:00 am.  No moon.  No light except star light.  You can hit moving targets and stationary targets although you might not know whether they are friend or foe.

If you are fighting off the charging hordes at night, but the range is 100 yards, then the response changes.  The original AIMPOINT scopes from the 1970s required binocular vision, but did not have batteries.  Notice however, that this OPTIC has a specific application and is not "good" for l o n g  r a n g e  of 300-400 yards.

If you are fighting off the charging hordes at night and you want to go high tech, then a very viable option is the Eotech 552 2x holographic sight with AA batteries.  You sight in the iron sights for 25 yards.  This gives you a battle sight zero of 250 yards.  Then you sight in the Eotech 552 for 50 yards.  

Here is the problem that is no articulated in many postings.

The AR15 sights are terribly offset against the bore axis.  If you have a carry handle AR, then the iron sights are useless at night.  You can't even sight "down the bore" like on a Garand.

If you use a Surfire light, it will work, but it is a big target indicator.  Yes, with training, an impulse of .5 sec. is enough to illuminate a target at 100 yards for consitent shots.  But notice, this is not OPTICS.

If you use the $5000 night goggles on room clearing, they don't work.  These are OPTICS, but not on the rifle.


Now you generate another set of questions when you ADD to the rifle.

How do you mount the optics so that they don't interfere with the exising iron sights?  

What is the range that you use in setting the iron sight and the optics?  The same, different?  Do you have the patience to go to the ballistics tables and print out the hold overs and hold unders, laminate the same and keep them with the rifle?  

Will you ever practice?  It doesn't do any good to sight a rifle in for a distance of say 300 yards, know that the holdover is 5 feet at 600 yards and then not know what objects look like at 600 yards.

Optics are not a cure for a lack of skill or a substitute for perfect practice.


I go to the range with a Marine Corp. ballistics consultant.  He is sighting in a fibre barreled rifle in a weird caliber.  I am sighting in a retrofitted M1A that has a new mildot scope.  We know the drill.  We have the new rifle sighted in with 9 shots.  Then, using ballistics tables, we have the rifle doing hits at 100 - 700 yards in 100 yard increments.  Later, paper targets will be used at those ranges and the exact data recorded.  My rifle is sighted in with about 12 shots.  Next to us, a guy has two new rifles and scopes.  He is not even hitting paper at 100 yards.  No sandbags, no posture, and he has the scope on backwards on the first rifle.

I am not saying this to brag.  I am saying this to confirm that things like position, rings, bases, having a spotter, knowing ballistics and so forth are critical, just like knowing the use of the optics.

I will tell you what I do when I am exploring optics.

I write my questions down on paper, lay out my specifications and contact people like SWPA or Premier Reticle.  After, receiving answers, I do my business with the experts.  This would include taking all the advice of the good people responding to this post and raising their comments as well.  I do not go to Walmart and buy my  optics.

bcochran,

You make some good points, but I think the term GP sums up what is wanted.

From CQB ---> 400m  - that seem to be what he stated.

I dont think 400m is long either 800-1k is long 1500+ is very long.

Maybe cause I am Army, I look at a GP scope being one that I would take on a  rifle or carbine if I only had that and could not mix and match modular weapons systems all day.
For all terrain and weather conditions.

I base off the flatttop (it has now become the standard - and I dont advocate mounting optics to the CH)

The Trijicon TA31 and TA-11 series are The GP scope on the market today.
The BAC illuminated reticle allows for both up in your face CQB speed as well as magnification to both identify and engage tgts at logner distances.
They are also good at night.  Just put your reticle on Mr Muzzle Flash and bang it goes away.

On a carbine I like having a fixed BCD reticle (al la ACOG)
the ACOG (were still talkign TA31 and 11's)allow for rapid ranging with the stadia lines done to a 19" tgt at ea. range.
(If a tgt is prone you can mostly still make out the chest dimensions off the head and shoulders) Unlike some ranging ideas (like the the ahem C79 Elcan) - excuse mr tgt please stand up so I can range your chest height.

Quoted: Both the TAO1 and TAO1nsn ACOGs absolutely DO NOT have the BAC feature we are talking about. DevL did a very good job of describing how BAC works. You need a full time illuninated reticle for BAC to work, and the TAO1/TAO1nsn do not have full time illuminated reticles. The reticles on those two models ONLY glow in reduced lighting. Both are GREAT optics, but they are not all purpose optics. They are pretty specific task optics and are SUPERB at doing the job they were designed to do. hr

What's the job they were designed too? When is a TA01 preferred over a TA31?

In my opinion, TAO1 series are best suited on a gun that wont see very much CQB. The fine cross hair reticles are excellent for longer range percision work, but they make fast paced fluid shooting very difficult on the shooter.

What do you think is best for 100 to 600 yard shooting? I was going to get one of these TA11 3.5x for my future AR10A4 but people tell me it is a bit light for 600 yards. (I don't need hyper accuracy though, I just need to reliably hit human upper torso sized targets out to 600 yards)

This thread has helped me alot! I have hellova ACOG fever and I wasn´t able to decide which one to pick but now I´m pretty sure!  
Thanks to everyone and especially new-arguy, you really have done some work for this. That blue filter thing was very helpful, I have to share this to LE friends.

This site really ROCKS!

MN

The ACOG that would be *BEST* for 100-600M shooting would probably be the TA55. It is the grand daddy of all full size ACOGs. Well, not so much the grand daddy inthat it is so old... Its actually their latest magnified ACOG design. However, it is 5.5x and will help you get out there better than the 3.5x TA11 or 4X TAO1/TA31 series. It is bigger, but I think it would fit right at home atop a AR10. I'm shamelessly stealing this pic of one off of mstn.biz who has these optics and builds some of the most awesome rifles in anyones possession!

Is the idea with the "ranging reticle" to "hold over" with the crosshair created by the longer-range marks, or is it like the old rangefinder scopes that it is simply used to estimate distance?

Also, how are they calibrated?  I see with the NSN model, the calibration is for a specific bullet weight from a particular length barrel.  How do they work if you use 55gr bullets for plinking, 62gr for hunting small game, and 68 for larger stuff?

The BDC reticle in the ACOGs is a "ladder" consisting of a single vertical line with a series of short cross bars.  It sort of dangles below the main illuminated reticle.

Each cross bar is longer than the one below it and corresponds, roughly, to the width of a human chest at that range.  So you just raise up until you have a crosshair formed by the vertical bar and a crossbar, with the crossbar as wide as the target's chest.

The BDC ladder is calibrated to a particular load and mounting height.  But check out the thread called The Big ACOG BDC Chart that's tacked above this thread to see how to zero for most useful results with other combinations.

The ACOG BDC ladder is much simpler than the traditional mil-dot ranging reticle where you have to count dots and calculate.  The Ballistic Plex reticle that you see advertised in the gun rags is similar, but with crosshairs instead of the BAC part of the reticle.

Thanks, Mike.  I should have looked more carefully at the Trijicon web site FAQ's before asking about the calibration.  They made it pretty clear that the TA11's and 31's are for a 55gr bullet fired from a 20" barrel.  They also make the claim that the difference from barrel to barrel, bullet to bullet does not make a difference, but rather MV and BC, as well as height of mounting above bore.  I can easily buy the height above bore argument, but MV is directly affected by barrel length, and BC is likewise directly affected by bullet weight and/or bullet shape.  I'll be sure to check out the post you reference, as I'm sure it will help me out in understanding.  Still, their claims leave a little of the physics to the imagination.

For you that have used the NSN sights, could you expand on your frustrations or good experiences?  According to Trijicon, this appears to be the out-of-the box sight that will be best fit to the carbine I will be purchasing.  Unfortunately, with the rigors of work, school, and home, I no longer have the time to spend at the range that I'd like, to buy, evaluate, and return if necessary, the gear that I used to.  Additionally, the dealers in my area tend to cater to bird, turkey, and deer hunters, so they do not have floor models of tactical-type weapons and sights to borrow for the day to evaluate.  A Leupold VXIII you can try -- Trijicon has to be special ordered.  (This was not without its advantages when looking for a good, lightweight grouse gun, however.)

The other question I have is why the ACOGS or other holographic or projected-image sights?  Are the standard optical sights really that much inferior to the newer technology?
Bcochran made a convincing argument, especially in light of my familiarity with the conventional technology.  But, those sights were developed for late 19th century-early 20th century firearms, and have their own limitations.

What is a newcomer to do?

This thread cost me a 846.78 today. Thanks a F$%^&#g lot. [banana]

J

c'mon man... whadja get!

You gotta put smiley! [:D]

I read the disscussion and then thought about what I was going to do with the rifle. I dont kick in doors for a living or sit in a chair facing the front door hoping to God that someone is fixing bust in. I shoot at the range and hunt pigs/varmits at 30-150 yards typically. The TA01 was probably the best choice for me but I waked in to get my M4 barrel and the local dealer had a NIB TA01NSN that wasnt war-frenzy priced. I picked it up and I think the scope is great. I do agree that the eye relief is a little narrow, the Tritium greys out at twilight and the I can see the parallax on the (left!) side not the right. I am aware of these minor issues that the NSN has thanks to this thread. These issues do not bother me as it is a great optic for what I will be doing with it.  

J

I didn't think that the NSN had tritium and I know that it doesn't have the fiber optic? illumination.  Is the rope on top basically a fiber-optic cable that is slit open on the topside?  New ar-guy?  That is just what it seems like to me.

The TAO1nsn and TAO1 both have tritium. When things get darker, their reticles will glow. The nsn will have a play yellow color only to the center crosshairs, the TAO1 will than full line red illumination.

Quoted: The ACOG that would be *BEST* for 100-600M shooting would probably be the TA55. It is the grand daddy of all full size ACOGs. Well, not so much the grand daddy inthat it is so old... Its actually their latest magnified ACOG design. However, it is 5.5x and will help you get out there better than the 3.5x TA11 or 4X TAO1/TA31 series. It is bigger, but I think it would fit right at home atop a AR10. I'm shamelessly stealing this pic of one off of www.mstn.biz who has these optics and builds some of the most awesome rifles in anyones possession!

Yep - I've got the TA55 pegged to go on my AR15.com AR-10.  (I've got plenty of time to get that fourth mortgage and sell my car before......... !)

Quoted: US optics isn't realy US optics, it's realy JAP! Good Shootin, Jack

I don't think so, unless the Japs are building some heavy duty scopes. Why do people say things like that?

BTW: The official position of the factory is that all of the custom line of scopes, ST-10, SN Series, all are totally US made, except the raw lens blanks which are German or in a few cases japanese. However, the cutting and grinding of lenses are all done in USA.  
USO MST-100B on M40A3 clone:

i recently purchased a docter optic red dot sight and have it co-witnessed on an ar-15 carry handle.i must admit this little sight has got it all. it's small, extremly durable, german made optical glass(not plastic),water proof, auto adjusting dot brightness,ability to mount to the top of any scope with A.R.M.S. scope rings, and best of all the battery has a 5 year expected life.i love this little sight and feel it has everything the other high end red dot sights have. I wouldnt trade it for anything on the market right now!!!

How much $ will a TA31A put you back for?

They retail for abour $1200, but if you are lucky, you can get them under $900. I emphasize if you are lucky. These things are very hard to come by right now.

I just want to back up everything New-arguy and the ACOG-aholics have been saying! I just bought a TA11 at the show in Orlando this weekend. Wooohoooo! It's everything it's cracked up to be and then some, and worth evey dime. It's rare that you buy something which substantially EXCEEDS all your hopes and expectations. I even sent an email to the guy who sold it to me (Bob Perry, at TacSupply.com) thanking him for it.

Did I mention ACOGS kick ass?

Just bought a compact ACOG TA50R-2 (3x24). Looking to go out to 300m max with my A2 carbine.
After 2 yrs of 'researching' and hesitating, I'm finally able/committed to pony up the $604 and get a taste of that ACOG honey!

Thanks to these very informative forums and SWFA for their prompt and courteous service.

EOTech on a carbine under 200 meters.  3.5x10 Lupy tac for above 200 meters.

TA31 on a carbine for under 200 meters, or TA31 for over 200 meters. Oh wait, did I just say the same scope? Yeah, I did... thats the point [:P]

I just got my TA-31 today. Thanks to Neil(new-arguy). I will have to tell you that we are blessed to have people like Neil that do a lot
of T&E. I can't wait to go shoot this weekend at my range. And for the record I love the TRIJICON
DONUTS

I have been reading answers to a "new Ar guy's" questions regarding scopes. Since they were all posted in 2002, I guess things have changed somewhat. I am also new to the AR, and I have the same question regarding optics. As money is a concern, if one didn't go with Trijion, who then? I feel that mgnification is important. On their site, Bushmasters list The I.O.R. 4x24mm M2 Tactical Model scope. About half the price of an ACOG. What suggestions do you guy's have regarding, not only this scope,but any others?
Thanks

Just spend the extra money(piss your wife off) for the TA-31. They are not going to get any cheaper. I'm glad I waited for the Trijicon TA-31.

jregistrar,

Something to ponder:

If something bad happens to an IOR scope, where do you send it for repair? And where do the parts come from?
Can you tell that I'm a clutz?

Trijicon is an AMERICAN company, and the service and parts are right here. No waiting for parts to come across the pond on a boat.

And the ACOG are just about bulletproof. I thing that you'd have to drop your rifle and then run over it with your 4x4 to damage it.

Just my $0.02

FWIW the Trijicon Accupoint's are made in Japan.

I have heard that Accu-points were made here, I have also heard they were not. I dont know which is true. But I do know that I know one person with an accupoint, and about 3 dozen with ACOGs.