How to install a TD grip on a YHM rail ? - Page 2

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - How to install a TD grip on a YHM rail ? (Page 2 of 2)

Posted: 7/19/2005 5:35:59 PM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
Mine were quite tight, and required that they be tapped down to go on, mine were also early models. If you can't handle that little amount of work as an AR15 owner, you have bigger issues.

The BS comments and muck slinging from vendors has gotten past the point of being pathetic on this board. I will NOT buy anything from ANY of the vendors on this board who have to result to name calling or jumping all over other peoples threads.

There are plenty of decent dealers here, but too many threads have been showing examples of ego and juevinile vindictiveness. This thread isn't the worst by any stretch, but it is still worthy of the title "swill". I would also like to point out that I am not addressing this to any particular vendor, there are more than one or two that have been doing this.

Sorry to sidetrack the ACTUAL TOPIC, so I'll stop my rant and simply post another picture.

img175.imageshack.us/img175/9900/yhmcompresizelarge2qj.jpg

Agree that a public forum is not the place for dealers (that don't get along) to have it out, but it happens. I do wish that the dealers on this board had their own private forum to work out their "issues" with each other.

You also state that your not addressing either dealer in this thread, but I would like to point out that I was commentating (based on my experience) that YHM rails and TD grip don't always fit (as the YHM rail doesn't follow the spec all that well). I never said anything about BF and not sure why he thought it was a good idea to go after me in particular.

C4

Posted: 7/19/2005 5:36:15 PM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:

I have NO DOUBT that YHM changed their rail specs some time ago. The problem is that they CANNOT consistently keep them in spec. To be honest I really cannot fault them for this (based on the price they charge for them). When you sell a piece of gear cheap you have to make a cut somewhere. That somewhere is QC. I would be willing to bet that there are batches of YHM rails that follow the M1913 spec very well (could most likely trace them by delivery date to the dealer). In the same breath you could also find batches of bad ones (again traced by delivery date to dealer).

This same thinking goes along with SF rails. There are good batches and bad batches. When anyone calls me up and orders a SF rail and a TD VG I try and advise them they might not be a good idea (have a 50/50 shot). I even test fit some TD VG's onto SF rails for customers to make sure they get a working combo.

C4

I see what you are saying, that is a good point...

Posted: 7/19/2005 5:39:17 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
Got my TD from Grant.....used the cable ties to hold down the detents and hammered it on my heavy YHM FF with a plastic mallet...easy..well not really

I personally helped a custmer pound the TD VG onto a NEW YHM rail that came on his NEW BM AR. It removed some material (took three of us to get it on there). I used a rubber mallet (non slip). He (the customer) was happy with the solid feel of it and had ZERO intention of taking it off (good thing).

C4

Posted: 7/19/2005 5:44:21 PM EDT

[#4]

I had to send in the upper to YHM to have some timing issued corrected (a kit supplier royally screwed up the FF, flip up gas block, and phantom) with the TD VFG still on it....it ain't ever coming off. I even told them in my letter to disregard it's presence because their FF is so dang tight I didn't dare take it off!

Posted: 7/19/2005 5:53:24 PM EDT

[#5]

Thanks for the tip Tuna.

The first time I put the TD on my rail I was going through all my drawers looking for something to hold the locking pins down with and to think I had what I needed the whole time.

For the record, my instructions didn't give this hint, they just say to use your fingers.

Posted: 7/19/2005 5:54:51 PM EDT

[#6]

Quote form above:
" For the record, my instructions didn't give this hint, they just say to use your fingers. "

Yeah, I was mistaken.

Posted: 7/19/2005 5:58:41 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
Agree that a public forum is not the place for dealers (that don't get along) to have it out, but it happens. I do wish that the dealers on this board had their own private forum to work out their "issues" with each other.

You also state that your not addressing either dealer in this thread, but I would like to point out that I was commentating (based on my experience) that YHM rails and TD grip don't always fit (as the YHM rail doesn't follow the spec all that well). I never said anything about BF and not sure why he thought it was a good idea to go after me in particular.

C4

I can understand that there is a need to dispell certain things, and I do not fault either of you for that. I've seen dealers here badmouth products for the hollow reasons of not selling a particular line, or trash talking something because it was a cheaper version.

I think its pretty obvious that most people would buy top of the line gear if they price was no object.

Again, this was not directed at either of you, and thankyou for not taking it the wrong way.

Please don't let it turn into something that just makes you guys look bad.

Posted: 7/19/2005 6:10:43 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Agree that a public forum is not the place for dealers (that don't get along) to have it out, but it happens. I do wish that the dealers on this board had their own private forum to work out their "issues" with each other.

You also state that your not addressing either dealer in this thread, but I would like to point out that I was commentating (based on my experience) that YHM rails and TD grip don't always fit (as the YHM rail doesn't follow the spec all that well). I never said anything about BF and not sure why he thought it was a good idea to go after me in particular.

C4

I can understand that there is a need to dispell certain things, and I do not fault either of you for that. I've seen dealers here badmouth products for the hollow reasons of not selling a particular line, or trash talking something because it was a cheaper version.

I think its pretty obvious that most people would buy top of the line gear if they price was no object.

Again, this was not directed at either of you, and thankyou for not taking it the wrong way.

Please don't let it turn into something that just makes you guys look bad.

I agree with you. I FULLY understand that not everyone has money to buy the very best. I think the YHM and SF rails are a good choice for the budget minded shooter. I just don't think a TD VG is the best choice (unless you don't mind beating it on). On the other hand if you want that "Never coming loose feel" then they might be the rail for you!

C4

Posted: 7/19/2005 6:14:50 PM EDT

[#9]

what's these SF rails? sounds like something I want to investigate as a budget-minded shooter
I must admit I am cheap, but that hard coat on the YHM just doesn't do it for me

Posted: 7/19/2005 6:29:48 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Agree that a public forum is not the place for dealers (that don't get along) to have it out, but it happens. I do wish that the dealers on this board had their own private forum to work out their "issues" with each other.

You also state that your not addressing either dealer in this thread, but I would like to point out that I was commentating (based on my experience) that YHM rails and TD grip don't always fit (as the YHM rail doesn't follow the spec all that well). I never said anything about BF and not sure why he thought it was a good idea to go after me in particular.

C4

I can understand that there is a need to dispell certain things, and I do not fault either of you for that. I've seen dealers here badmouth products for the hollow reasons of not selling a particular line, or trash talking something because it was a cheaper version.

I think its pretty obvious that most people would buy top of the line gear if they price was no object.

Again, this was not directed at either of you, and thankyou for not taking it the wrong way.

Please don't let it turn into something that just makes you guys look bad.

I take no pleasure in airing my sentiments but the fact is I deal in YHM on a continual basis and Grant deals with LaRue on a continual basis. To make the vague statement that YHM rails aren't milspec is false, the only issues that folks have had problems is with the TD v.grip, all the other accessories work without problem (except Fobus but virtually every rail system has had a problem with some of their accessories). Yes some have had a tighter fit than others with YHM but there are also reports of LaRue, KAC and others being tight so I don't think the accusation is fair.

My apologies to the board for airing personal sentiments.

Calvin

Posted: 7/19/2005 6:43:40 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
what's these SF rails? sounds like something I want to investigate as a budget-minded shooter
I must admit I am cheap, but that hard coat on the YHM just doesn't do it for me

The SureFire M73 (a non FF rail system). Retail @ $195. BOTH BF and myself are AUTHORIZED dealers for them.

C4

Posted: 7/19/2005 6:47:45 PM EDT

[#12]

can I ask how these engage? set screws hit the barrel like the armalite rails like this or is it a different mechanism? I've been looking at them for my Armalite A4.

Posted: 7/19/2005 6:54:28 PM EDT

[#13]

I take no pleasure in airing my sentiments but the fact is I deal in YHM on a continual basis and Grant deals with LaRue on a continual basis. To make the vague statement that YHM rails aren't milspec is false, the only issues that folks have had problems is with the TD v.grip, all the other accessories work without problem (except Fobus but virtually every rail system has had a problem with some of their accessories). Yes some have had a tighter fit than others with YHM but there are also reports of LaRue, KAC and others being tight so I don't think the accusation is fair.

My apologies to the board for airing personal sentiments.

Calvin

The TD VG is a VERY good tool at measuring rail dims. according to the M1913 spec. This is the ONLY product (that I am aware of) that ACTUALLY requires a mil-spec rail. The TD VG generally do not fit on the YHM rail (50/50 shot) without some pounding. So I am NOT making a "Vague" statement about their ability to CONSISTENTLY follow the M1913 Spec. Of course all other accessories fit as 80% of them screw one!

There is also a difference between a tight fit (which is what you want) and having to use a mallet to pound it on (removing material from the TD VG). This is the part that gets me (when you say that they are "just a tight fit"). I have installed the TD VG onto KAC, TROY, DD and LT rails. They all had a nice tight fit (no pounding required).

C4

Posted: 7/19/2005 6:54:36 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
Agree that a public forum is not the place for dealers (that don't get along) to have it out, but it happens. I do wish that the dealers on this board had their own private forum to work out their "issues" with each other.

C4

The dealers and Industry Partners do have a private forum right at the bottom of the Industry forum board.
It's called the Moderator forum and it's been there longer then you've been here.
If I see any more crap like this from dealers here..your stay will be a short one.
The Mod forum is there for a reason...use it!

Posted: 7/19/2005 6:57:23 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
can I ask how these engage? set screws hit the barrel like the armalite rails like this or is it a different mechanism? I've been looking at them for my Armalite A4.

They use two screws that drive the rail into D Ring by pushing against the HG cap. This gives you a very stable platform, but doesn't FF the barrel.

If your coming to the VA BRD this Saturday I can bring a set for you to look at (if you like).

C4

Posted: 7/19/2005 7:02:29 PM EDT

[#16]

I bought a YMH rail and a TDG that came together on the EE. The original owner filed down the inside of the grip to allow it to fit on the rail. I also have another grip that is NIB. It will not fit on the rail. The grip is great, the rail is great, they just require work to get them to work together.

Posted: 7/19/2005 7:03:16 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
Quoted:
can I ask how these engage? set screws hit the barrel like the armalite rails like this or is it a different mechanism? I've been looking at them for my Armalite A4.

They use two screws that drive the rail into D Ring by pushing against the HG cap. This gives you a very stable platform, but doesn't FF the barrel.

If your coming to the VA BRD this Saturday I can bring a set for you to look at (if you like).

C4

Armalites have the triangular cap, do this work or only for RRA style cirlce caps? I will not be attending the BRD unfortunately but thanks for the offer.

Posted: 7/19/2005 11:41:53 PM EDT

[#18]

Lock this thread already!
When the kids can’t play nice, you need to take the toys away.

Posted: 7/20/2005 7:21:39 AM EDT

[#19]

Holy begesus, I stirred up a storm !

But I do think there's still some things to be discussed... in a decent manner.
I'm in no way an expert in the AR field, but here's my line of thinking.

1) For building a nice carbine with a limited budget, nothing comes close to YHM.
But as anything (just like with computers, cars, ...), you get what you pay for and I was prepared to see some compatibility/quality issues.
At least, YHM parts are made in the USA and are very serviceable.
The 300-400 $ this FF rail saved me is well worth the small invisible scratches it caused on my TD grip.

2) What is preferable between a tight or loose fit ? I choose a tight fit.
The YHM rail - TD VG combination ENSURES you'll get a tight fit, although some effort is needed to put them together...
I would have been very pissed off if I had bought an expensive KAC rail and then feel my TD grip wobbling on it.

3) I'm no machinist, but my intuition is that is easier to machine metal parts to high tolerances, but less so for plastic parts. Also, given the fact that the TD grip is supposed to be a "quick-release" that the user will slide off / put back several times on a sharp metal rail, hence getting scratched each time more & more, are you guys really sure that the engineers at TangoDown didn't intentionally make the TD VG a tiny bit off-spec to compensate this wear ?

Posted: 7/20/2005 7:42:29 AM EDT

[#20]

How did the TD VFG replace a set of calipers or a micrometer as the standard by which we measure things...does that not sound a bit backwards?

Matt

Posted: 7/20/2005 12:36:14 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
How did the TD VFG replace a set of calipers or a micrometer as the standard by which we measure things...does that not sound a bit backwards?

Matt

Because there is a dealer on this board who would rather criticize people for the gear that they have than try to add something constructive to the issue at hand

Posted: 7/20/2005 2:35:27 PM EDT

[#22]

.

Posted: 7/20/2005 8:45:06 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
How did the TD VFG replace a set of calipers or a micrometer as the standard by which we measure things...does that not sound a bit backwards?

Is it that much different than using a headspace gage rather than a micrometer?

Grant does like to bag on YHM rails a lot and there's no real reason for it. Yes, they're not as good as more expensive rails but they are a great deal for the money and they are much better than he seems to give them credit for. The TD grip is not any more difficult to install on YHM handguards that it is on Troy, Surefire or Daniel Defense rails that I've tried them on. And as for using TD on an ARMS rail...

Posted: 7/21/2005 5:36:56 AM EDT

[#24]

For one a headspace gage is a certified standard, as were the TD VFG is not, it is a rail accessory.

If you are going to make the claims that something is out of spec and possibly damage a companies reputation, you better have a good way to check it to 1913 print...hmmm....like a set of calipers. So YES there is a difference.

I do not own any YHM products, so I do not have ulterior motives here.

Matt

Posted: 7/21/2005 6:33:09 AM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
can I ask how these engage? set screws hit the barrel like the armalite rails like this or is it a different mechanism? I've been looking at them for my Armalite A4.

They use two screws that drive the rail into D Ring by pushing against the HG cap. This gives you a very stable platform, but doesn't FF the barrel.

If your coming to the VA BRD this Saturday I can bring a set for you to look at (if you like).

C4

Armalites have the triangular cap, do this work or only for RRA style cirlce caps? I will not be attending the BRD unfortunately but thanks for the offer.

Currently, there is only one SF rail system that uses the triangle HG cap and it if for rifle length rail. The Carbine and Mid-Length rails have to use round HG caps.

Sorry to hear you won't make the shoot.

C4

Posted: 7/21/2005 6:36:26 AM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
Holy begesus, I stirred up a storm !

But I do think there's still some things to be discussed... in a decent manner.
I'm in no way an expert in the AR field, but here's my line of thinking.

1) For building a nice carbine with a limited budget, nothing comes close to YHM.
But as anything (just like with computers, cars, ...), you get what you pay for and I was prepared to see some compatibility/quality issues.
At least, YHM parts are made in the USA and are very serviceable.
The 300-400 $ this FF rail saved me is well worth the small invisible scratches it caused on my TD grip.

2) What is preferable between a tight or loose fit ? I choose a tight fit.
The YHM rail - TD VG combination ENSURES you'll get a tight fit, although some effort is needed to put them together...
I would have been very pissed off if I had bought an expensive KAC rail and then feel my TD grip wobbling on it.

3) I'm no machinist, but my intuition is that is easier to machine metal parts to high tolerances, but less so for plastic parts. Also, given the fact that the TD grip is supposed to be a "quick-release" that the user will slide off / put back several times on a sharp metal rail, hence getting scratched each time more & more, are you guys really sure that the engineers at TangoDown didn't intentionally make the TD VG a tiny bit off-spec to compensate this wear ?

DD and LT rails are not $200-$300 hundred more than YHM rails (so you didn't save that much). These two rail companies make their rails in the USA (not that should matter though as your in Canada).

Other way around. It is easier for them to make a precise mold and cut the slots (when cold) to get the proper fit. The Picatinny Arsenal guys gave TD the rail they wanted them to make the grip for. It doesn't get any more precise than that!

C4

Posted: 7/21/2005 6:39:20 AM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
Quoted:
How did the TD VFG replace a set of calipers or a micrometer as the standard by which we measure things...does that not sound a bit backwards?

Matt

Because there is a dealer on this board who would rather criticize people for the gear that they have than try to add something constructive to the issue at hand

That's a big negative. First off, the TD VG does NOT replace calipers. It is however a good go/no go gauge. I have NEVER critized anyone for buying a YHM rail. The only thing I have said is that they (YHM) do not consitently follow the M1913 rail spec. This matters not if your NOT going to run a TD VG which requires a rail to follow the spec closely...

C4

Posted: 7/21/2005 6:41:28 AM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
Quoted:
How did the TD VFG replace a set of calipers or a micrometer as the standard by which we measure things...does that not sound a bit backwards?

Is it that much different than using a headspace gage rather than a micrometer?

Grant does like to bag on YHM rails a lot and there's no real reason for it. Yes, they're not as good as more expensive rails but they are a great deal for the money and they are much better than he seems to give them credit for. The TD grip is not any more difficult to install on YHM handguards that it is on Troy, Surefire or Daniel Defense rails that I've tried them on. And as for using TD on an ARMS rail...

Once again, I do not bag on the the YHM rails. They are a good low cost rail system. My only point is that they do not always fit well with the TD VG.

C4

Posted: 7/21/2005 6:44:21 AM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
For one a headspace gage is a certified standard, as were the TD VFG is not, it is a rail accessory.

If you are going to make the claims that something is out of spec and possibly damage a companies reputation, you better have a good way to check it to 1913 print...hmmm....like a set of calipers. So YES there is a difference.

I do not own any YHM products, so I do not have ulterior motives here.

Matt

Agree. I have been present when calipers were put to a YHM rail. The ones we had did not follow the M1913 spec. Are they all like that? Nope, but I do see (on this board) a consistant issue with them and the TD VG fitting. My whole point is that the buyer needs to be aware that they MAY run into an issue them working with the TD VG. If your NOT going to buy a TD VG then don't worry about it and buy them.

C4

Posted: 7/21/2005 7:10:16 AM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Got my TD from Grant.....used the cable ties to hold down the detents and hammered it on my heavy YHM FF with a plastic mallet...easy..well not really

I personally helped a custmer pound the TD VG onto a NEW YHM rail that came on his NEW BM AR. It removed some material (took three of us to get it on there). I used a rubber mallet (non slip). He (the customer) was happy with the solid feel of it and had ZERO intention of taking it off (good thing).

C4

I've got two of the NEW YHM rails and a TD grip. The first time I tried putting it on, yes it was very tight. Yes it did shave just a tiny amount of plastic from the inside of the TD grip as I worked it onto the rail. BUT if you put it on and take it off a couple of times it gets much easier. Certainly by the second time I was easily able to do it by myself (probably would have been able to do it myself the first time if I had known the zip tie trick). Third time it was a piece of cake.

For the casual AR15 enthusiast such as myself, the 15 minutes of getting the TD on the rail the first time was well worth the $100-$200 or so difference between the YHM and the Top'O'the line rail. YMMV

BTW THREE of you AND a rubber mallet?????? My wife just had to help keep the gun steady the first time.

Posted: 7/21/2005 7:17:12 AM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Got my TD from Grant.....used the cable ties to hold down the detents and hammered it on my heavy YHM FF with a plastic mallet...easy..well not really

I personally helped a custmer pound the TD VG onto a NEW YHM rail that came on his NEW BM AR. It removed some material (took three of us to get it on there). I used a rubber mallet (non slip). He (the customer) was happy with the solid feel of it and had ZERO intention of taking it off (good thing).

C4

I've got two of the NEW YHM rails and a TD grip. The first time I tried putting it on, yes it was very tight. Yes it did shave just a tiny amount of plastic from the inside of the TD grip as I worked it onto the rail. BUT if you put it on and take it off a couple of times it gets much easier. Certainly by the second time I was easily able to do it by myself (probably would have been able to do it myself the first time if I had known the zip tie trick). Third time it was a piece of cake.

For the casual AR15 enthusiast such as myself, the 15 minutes of getting the TD on the rail the first time was well worth the $100-$200 or so difference between the YHM and the Top'O'the line rail. YMMV

BTW THREE of you AND a rubber mallet?????? My wife just had to help keep the gun steady the first time.

For those of you that have never handled a DD or LT rail you also gain some other things for the price difference (less weight, smaller diameter, higher fit and finish and a anti-rotation system). Some of these comments are PURELY subjective and will NOT apply to everyone.

Yeah it was a cluster F* trying to get that thing on there. It didn't help when my hand got hit with the rubber mallet.

C4

Posted: 7/21/2005 7:22:44 AM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
Quoted:
For one a headspace gage is a certified standard, as were the TD VFG is not, it is a rail accessory.

If you are going to make the claims that something is out of spec and possibly damage a companies reputation, you better have a good way to check it to 1913 print...hmmm....like a set of calipers. So YES there is a difference.

I do not own any YHM products, so I do not have ulterior motives here.

Matt

Agree. I have been present when calipers were put to a YHM rail. The ones we had did not follow the M1913 spec. Are they all like that? Nope, but I do see (on this board) a consistant issue with them and the TD VG fitting. My whole point is that the buyer needs to be aware that they MAY run into an issue them working with the TD VG. If your NOT going to buy a TD VG then don't worry about it and buy them.

C4

Thats all I wanted to know.

Matt

Posted: 7/21/2005 7:19:18 PM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:
For one a headspace gage is a certified standard,

No, a headspace gage is not a standard. It is a device made according to a known standard and you are supposed to verify the calibration of the gage using a micrometer from time to time. In the absence of a purpose built gage for measuring rails, the TD is a good measureing device for at least the first few uses before plastic gets worn away. Even then it is still a good gage so long as you use a micrometer to verify the calibration. Other grips or accessories can also be used as gages so long as he 'gage' itself is first verified to be accurate to the spec. Sure you can use micrometers to measure the rail, but you'll be at it half the day when you could simply spend a few minutes using the micrometers to verify the grip then try the grip on each rail. In fact, the grip is better than micrometers in this case because not only does it check the dimensions of the rail but it also may detect any lack of straigtness in the rail while micrometers can only measure the dimensions at a specific point on the rail. By sliding a grip or other suitable accessory along the full length of the rail you are checking the rail at every point along the rail.

Posted: 7/21/2005 8:19:48 PM EDT

[#34]

Zip ties? Golf tees? Am I the only one who just put the rifle's butt on the floor, put 2 fingers on each side of the TD VFG, pulled the buttons down, and slid it down the rail?

Nice snug fit, BTW.

Posted: 7/21/2005 9:14:33 PM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:

Zip ties? Golf tees? Am I the only one who just put the rifle's butt on the floor, put 2 fingers on each side of the TD VFG, pulled the buttons down, and slid it down the rail?

That's how I did it. On a Troy and later on a YHM.

Posted: 7/21/2005 10:59:53 PM EDT

[#36]

BrightFlashlights
C4iGrant

I've received nothing but stellar goods & services from the both of you. You guys really have more in common than you think. You both are very passionate about your business and manage them ethically with outstanding customer service.

Posted: 7/22/2005 7:59:14 AM EDT

[#37]

The important thing now is that my YHM-TD vfg setup is solid and I really enjoy shooting with it.

Now, I just afraid that the YHM FF rail will loosen up some day.
I heard that the solution would be to drill & tap one or two set screws thru the locking ring, to block it onto the barrel nut...
As anybody done this ?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v517/Sniper918/AR4.jpg

(BTW, the Canadian liberal gov forces us to block mags to 5 rds for all semi-auto centerfire guns, hence the stupid rivets you see in the picture... )

Posted: 7/22/2005 8:07:44 AM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:

Zip ties? Golf tees? Am I the only one who just put the rifle's butt on the floor, put 2 fingers on each side of the TD VFG, pulled the buttons down, and slid it down the rail?

members.cox.net/drmark/TDandLT.JPG

Nice snug fit, BTW.

Have done this with all my TD VG and LT Rails.

C4

Posted: 7/22/2005 8:08:15 AM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:
BrightFlashlights
C4iGrant

I've received nothing but stellar goods & services from the both of you. You guys really have more in common than you think. You both are very passionate about your business and manage them ethically with outstanding customer service.

Thank you for your comments!

C4

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - How to install a TD grip on a YHM rail ? (Page 2 of 2)

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