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Posted: 4/11/2006 2:48:55 PM EDT
[#1]
Talked to my favorite gunsmith after I posted this morning. He likes Poly barrels, but says their biggest downside is that they are a pain in the ass to chamber. The reamer has to be made a little longer so that it stays stable in the bore and doesn't cut an oval chamber.
That said, I am all for using the same reamer on barrel that are identical except for rifling, and then firing them over a chrono to see what we come up with. The problem is that I would be into the project for a few grand by the time I was done. I was discussing this with a friend the other night, by the way. Bottom line from Wes' testing is that a Noveske Crusader is adequate for every role that the M4 barrel is used in, weight aside. Steve, my comment that you have an axe to grind with Noveske is directly linked to the amount of opposition you have shown to his barrels and muzzle devices. As for the argument that Poly barrels last longer and produce higher velocities; this is not a new argument. Gale McMillan and David Tubb are on the record in support of polygonal rifling, as well as Heckler and Koch. There is also a large amount of anecdotal evidence for increased lifespan, and I have read a lot of good things on Poly rifles since I began investigating them 5 years ago. I am about to order one, although I haven't decided if it will be a 5.56 or a 6.8 yet. |
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Posted: 4/11/2006 3:09:28 PM EDT
[#2]
I will draw this conclusion..I MUST see the 6.8 chrono results at 12.5"! It seems that will prove to be VERY interesting. I am guessing around 2400fps based on what I'm seeing with your 18". Thanks for the input Wes. |
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Posted: 4/11/2006 3:24:06 PM EDT
[#3]
VIC,
I THINK I MAY HAVE DONE THE LAST CHRONOGRAPH WORK FOR BARF15.COM. I'LL SHARE WITH YOU, THOUGH. HOW DOES THIS SOUND: REMINGTON WHITE BOX 115 GR OTM REMINGTON GREEN BOX 115 GR OTM "NOT FOR SALE" REMINGTON GREEN BOX 115 GR OTM REMINGTON GREEN BOX 115 GR SMK NOVESKE 12", 16", AND 18", PLUS A DOUGLAS 16". WE MAY HAVE A MIKE ROCK 16" AROUND HERE, TOO ... MAYBE WE'LL HAVE 16" C/L MRP BARRELS BEFORE YOU KNOW IT, TOO. WES GRANT M.S.T.N. |
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Posted: 4/11/2006 3:52:13 PM EDT
[#4]
Wes, after a few other threads here in the past couple of days and this one, I am about ready to call it no longer worth it. I starting to beleive Raptor and Micelle have more brain matter than most people on ARFDOM.  For those that don't have a clue, Raptor (Inspector #1 from a post about a year ago) and Micelle (Inspector #2) are two Bengals cats. They can watch you do something and then figure out as a team how to do it themselves. Yes, it's challeging.
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Posted: 4/11/2006 4:08:11 PM EDT
[#5]
I feel a triple dog dare coming on soon. |
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Posted: 4/11/2006 4:17:27 PM EDT
[#6]
I find the whole thing interesting from the technical aspects of barrel manufacturing to the dealer vs. dealer - manufacturer vs. manufacturer. Anyway, I ordered a 16.1 Noveske Recon and 13.2 LaRue tube from Denny Monday. It should be here tomorrow and the CMT upper is already in the vise ready for it.  |
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Posted: 4/11/2006 4:23:53 PM EDT
[#7]
Very good info Wes. It would appear that Noveske barrels run pretty close to barrels that are 2" longer. You wouldn't happen to have any chrono info on the Noveske 10.5???
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Posted: 4/11/2006 4:27:52 PM EDT
[#8]
Wes, Bigbore. Thanks for the testing. I know you worked your butts off to get that info. Some people don't know how to keep their own opinions for themselves. You provided data, and for some reason, people had to find every way to fault you for it. Your data proves something though...that you can gain some benefits and loose others by the choices you make in barrel type (chamber type, etc). Having that information is more valuable to those that actually listen to the message, versus trying to dispel it on whatever grounds possible.
For every poster that gave you hell on this post, there were probably 10 that read it, and said "wow" that's good to know. Keep up the good work, and thanks. (BTW....this wasn't a ass-kiss post. I'm not getting paid to say it, nor did I gain anything except a reassurance that the choices you make in barrel chamber etc must be paid attention to. They did the work so I didn't have to...much appriciated). |
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Posted: 4/11/2006 4:45:53 PM EDT
[#9]
So do I. In an unrelated link on a 1-4 Meopta Scope (Optics Forum), threefeathers reports he's getting a ArmsTech rifle with a 14" gain twist, poly-rifled barrel in June. I've asked him to post some chrono data if he can when he gets it. It will be good to get another data point from an "unconventional" barrel to see if the advertised merits really are there. Even if they aren't there as much as I would hope, Joe reports the barrel's a tack driver. Much like the Noveske. |
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Posted: 4/11/2006 4:47:33 PM EDT
[#10]
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Posted: 4/11/2006 6:03:08 PM EDT
[#11]
I think the really interesting information is that the sound suppressor (whichever it is) is adding nearly as much velocity to the 11.5 as corresponding barrel length would, (I'm sure that statement isn't entirely accurate [barrel length to suppressor length] but I deffinitely see that as a serious plus for anyone agonizing over additional length with a suppressor.
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Posted: 4/11/2006 6:30:26 PM EDT
[#12]
I don't blame you. Fact of life: The few always ruin it for the many. Happens almost everytime. The environment around here seems to be getting worse as time goes on. |
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Posted: 4/11/2006 6:36:24 PM EDT
[#13]
I can see 30-40 fps, but that is a lot. Maybe it is like the enedine buffer that added 200 fps. 
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Posted: 4/11/2006 6:38:29 PM EDT
[#14]
I spoke to John Noveske on Monday. Noveske is supplying the steel to PAC-NOR and PAC-NOR is making the blanks to Noveske's specs. Noveske is then turning the barrels. I have a custom18" on order that should be shipping any day now. Not trying to start any Poo just making a clarification to what I read on page 1. Noveske has been very cooperative in this process. They even called SRT to make sure my new barrel mates up to my new Hurricane XL supressor corectly. I got the flame option on the dangerous end too.
I would also like to add I have had several conversations with Casandra and she is awesome. If she can't answer a question she gets John or one of the other guys to answer my questions. They are very professional and very patient. I have been waiting several months for my barrel. Mostly because of the custom order, the supressor fit, and I have made a few changes along the way. Super people to work with I can't say enough good about their customer service. |
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Posted: 4/11/2006 6:42:15 PM EDT
[#15]
In a nutshell from one who used to collect accurate data samples: it is similar to voting. It matters not who votes, but who counts the votes. Get it??? All variables must be under strict control, logged, and published with the report, or the data means nothing more than a game of pick-up sticks. I have no dog in this fight, but I can say that there is mud slinging going on here. This mud slinging is a very poor form of marketing, and not sales. Marketing is where you try to establish your market, sometimes out of thin fucking air.
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Posted: 4/11/2006 6:54:59 PM EDT
[#16]
Any idea what alloy he's providing them? |
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Posted: 4/11/2006 6:57:09 PM EDT
[#17]
Lets say this three times. Polygonal rifling is not the same as a polygonal bore. Again. Polygonal rifling is not the same as a polygonal bore. One more time. Polygonal rifling is not the same as a polygonal bore. Now are you talking about polygonal rifling or polygonal bores? PacNor has polygonal rifling. HK has a polygonal bore. Totally different. PacNor polygonal rifling is traditional land and groove rifling. HK has a bore the shape of a polygon that "turns" its way down the tube. |
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Posted: 4/11/2006 6:58:30 PM EDT
[#18]
No idea I will ask next time I talk to him. I ordered a stainless steel barrel. I was unaware of the changes when I ordered it but I am glad I caught them after the changeover. Dumb luck!
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Posted: 4/11/2006 7:22:56 PM EDT
[#19]
First off it's not imposable for a barrel to shoot faster than another with all other factors being equal (same chamber reamer, same barrel length, and same ammo). The real question should be why. It's as simple as this, pressure and velocity are proportional, if one goes up so did the other (it's roughly a 2 to 1 ratio pressure to velocity, but this ratio can change with different conditions). Now how pressure is increased if the chamber and ammo are constants is where people just tune out because it is not intuitive. Increasing barrel to bullet friction will increase pressure there by increasing velocity. That is just how smokeless powder works, the more pressure you build the faster the powder burns and to build pressure you have to have the friction of the bullet being squeezed into the rifling. An example of this is Krieger's 22 center fire barrels, they have a bore diameter of .218" where most barrels are .219", with this increased friction they shoot ~ 100 fps faster. An example of how decreasing friction will lower velocity can be seen with moly bullets, take a given load with the same bullet construction but 1 being moly coated and you'll see a velocity drop off with the moly bullets by approximately .5-1.5%.
bonepickerx that's very interesting. That makes me wonder if he's moving to a 410 alloy or something other than 416R. |
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Posted: 4/12/2006 8:53:47 AM EDT
[#20]
I'm implying the same thing as you. Look at the raw data and draw your own conclusions. Some folks would take what you said as Noveske barrels as being magic when that was never what you said, just what they thought you said.
Thanks. |
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Posted: 4/12/2006 9:15:26 AM EDT
[#21]
I'VE SAID FROM THE INITIAL POST TO DRAW YOUR OWN CONCLUSIONS. MANY HAVE POSTED THEIRS. I FEEL IT IS ONLY FAIR THAT I DRAW MY OWN.
FAQ PAGE FROM NOVESKERIFLEWORKS.COM: www.noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/cart2/display.cgi?cat1=20 IN HERE, NOVESKE'S CHAMBER DESIGN IS DISCUSSED. IT IS NOT A TIGHT MATCH CHAMBER. THEREFORE, WE CANNOT ATTRIBUTE VELOCITY PERFORMANCE IN NOVESKE BARRELS TO A TIGHT MATCH CHAMBER; INDEED, NOVESKE'S CHAMBERS ARE ACTUALLY LARGER THAN TYPICALLY ENCOUNTERED IN AN M4 BARREL. NOVESKE'S OWN CHRONOGRAPH DATA IS SIMILAR TO WHAT I RECORDED: A NOVESKE 12.5" BARREL PRODUCES VELOCITIES SIMILAR TO A NEW 14.5" CHROME LINED M4 BARREL. MY OWN DATA COMPARING A NOVESKE 16" TO ANOTHER 18" BARREL OF KNOWN EXCELLENT QUALITY PRODUCED SIMILAR RESULTS. WHILE THE NUMBER OF BARRELS COMPARED IS SO LOW AS TO RENDER THE DATA COLLECTED MERELY ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE, IT IS AT LEAST A POINT OF DEPARTURE. I'VE ALREADY HAD TWO P.M.C.'S WHO USUALLY ORDER ONE TRICKED OUT LMT 10.5" UPPER PER TOUR (NO, THEY CANNOT BRING THEM BACK.) ORDER 12.5" NOVESKE'S, INSTEAD, WITHOUT MY SO MUCH AS MY MAKING THE SUGGESTION TO THEM. THESE GUYS ARE TIER ONE PROS AT WHAT THEY DO, AND APPARENTLY HAVE DONE THEIR HOMEWORK. THE EVIDENCE COLLECTED SO FAR IS GOOD ENOUGH FOR THEM, IT APPEARS. THEY'RE WILLING TO PUT UP WITH TWO MORE INCHES OF BARREL TO GET FOUR MORE INCHES OF BARREL PERFORMANCE. THESE TWO GUYS VOTED WITH MORE THAN THEIR WALLETS, TOO. FLAME AWAY. WES GRANT M.S.T.N. |
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Posted: 4/12/2006 9:30:14 AM EDT
[#22]
Personally, I simply viewed the data as exactly that...data. Like anything else in this world from the data on number of handgun deaths to will apples reduce cholesterol...its data and can be used in a variety of ways. The puddle gets muddy when opinions are being tossed around as though they were facts. :) Thanks for the data posted MSTN and bigbore. |
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Posted: 4/12/2006 9:30:21 AM EDT
[#23]
Wes,
Thanks for sharing the link to John's FAQ...I've been all over that website, but never did come across that info. BTW, I think that some people are just plain NOT HAPPY to see John's products do so well since it takes away attention and sales from other available products. |
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Posted: 4/12/2006 9:50:12 AM EDT
[#24]
Wes, thank you again for sharing this data and thank you for answering my question as to the chamber type Noveske uses. Please do not be deterred from sharing this kind of information in the future, many of us appreciate it very much.
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Posted: 4/12/2006 10:04:46 AM EDT
[#25]
Body diameter has almost nothing to do with pressure rise but on the other hand throat design does significantly alter the pressure curve. That FAQ does say there is a "specially designed lead and freebore section" but it doesn't say what the freebore length is, the throat angle or the throat diameter, just that it's special. So your assumption that the chamber can not attribute to any gain in velocity is flawed IMO. I was reading a report off of DTIC called Rifling Profile Push Tests: An Assessment of Bullet Engraving Forces in Various Rifling Designs and found some very interesting information and conclusions. I just have to quote a two:
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Posted: 4/12/2006 10:17:51 AM EDT
[#26]
+1 |
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Posted: 4/12/2006 11:41:54 AM EDT
[#27]
Thanks Wes! Interesting data. Don't let the technotrolls bug you. They never see the complete picture anyways. lol
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Posted: 4/12/2006 12:46:18 PM EDT
[#28]
From Noveske's website: After months of research, development, and testing, we are happy to announce our new Extreme Duty Barrels. The barrel is made of 17-4 H1075 Stainless with a rockwell hardness of 36-38. This is 30% harder than mil-spec 4150 barrel steel. The barrel is harder, tougher, and more resistant to erosion than other barrels. Benefits: Sub MOA accuracy Minimal to NO Fouling Extended Barrel Life Higher operating tempatures The 5.56mm 17-4 barrels Feature: 1 in 7" twist rifling 5.56 Noveske Match Mod 0 chamber carbine length gas system extended feed ramps 1/2x28 TPI muzzle threads Bead blasted finish The 17-4 barrels are very expensive to manufacture. For less expensive 5.56mm barrels, please see the 416R barrels listed in the products section. These barrels are designed and intended for the professional |
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Posted: 4/12/2006 12:55:00 PM EDT
[#29]
John wont wrestle in the pig pen. Too busy making barrels.
Did you know he used to work at PAC NOR? |
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Posted: 4/12/2006 1:03:03 PM EDT
[#30]
While I have no problem with a 17-4PH barrel, the differences in material are overstated.
MIL-B-11595E shows 4150 for barrels @ Rc30 to Rc35. Three points on the rockwell "C" scale is not 30% in my book. 17-4 is good material, and offering it as a choice is fine. The best thing about 17-4 is the ability to age harden it after most of the machining is done. This makes it easier on tools, and faster to work. In many instances, 17-4 parts may be completely finished before heat treating. Lem |
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Posted: 4/12/2006 6:13:12 PM EDT
[#31]
OK, I'm confused now...  Anyone have a picture of POLYGONAL RIFLING? I know what a polygonal BORE looks like from my HK's... According to Wikipedia they are the same thing...  Rmpl 
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Posted: 4/13/2006 9:45:47 AM EDT
[#32]
It looks just like convention land and groove rifling unles you look at it with a bore scope. I actually called PacNor about this when I saw mine and was suprised to not see the HK style polygonal gore I wa s accustomed to and they said it is a common question for them to receive. They also mentioned it was more difficult to clean the barrel as it has to be "mopped" as the rifling does not catch the patch as easily. Thats anohter common call/concern they get.
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Posted: 4/15/2006 9:09:34 AM EDT
[#33]
Recent crono data on NOVESKE barrels all at 2000’ 80 F.
16” NOVESKE 1/7 POLY 69gr BLACK HILLS BLUE BOX LOT# 0720113015 2663 2651 2611 2663 2608 AVG: 2639 SD: 28 77gr MK262 MOD1 LOT # BLH03G026-001 2767 2797 2805 2805 2796 AVG: 2794 SD: 16 14.5” NOVESKE 69gr BLACK HILLS BLUE BOX LOT# 0720113015 2592 2582 2527 2565 2513 AVG: 2556 SD: 34 77gr MK262 MOD1 LOT # BLH03G026-001 2716 2735 2735 2729 2728 AVG: 2729 SD: 8 20” Production 1/7 CL 77gr MK262 MOD1 LOT # BLH03G026-001 2916 2934 2934 2926 2937 AVG: 2929 SD: 9 Out. 2011BLDR |
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Posted: 4/15/2006 1:01:54 PM EDT
[#34]
GOOD, MORE INFO. THANKS FOR POSTING.
WES GRANT M.S.T.N. |
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Posted: 4/15/2006 4:18:59 PM EDT
[#35]
At the same time I also shot 2 other 16” NOVESKE barrels with MK262 MOD1, while I don’t have all their exact shot velocities (the owners kept their data) I did notice that the high of 2805 and low of 2767 was duplicated by all 3. The 3 16” barrels have the following round counts.
5,000 1,000 50 I built all 3 uppers so I know all 3 barrels were from different production runs , 2 have Miculek comps and the other has a Vortex. So for the theory on their being a huge amount of variance from barrel to barrel, in my experience the NOVESKE barrels have proven to be vary consistent. Out. 2011BLDR |
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Posted: 4/15/2006 7:10:02 PM EDT
[#36]
Thanks for the data.
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Posted: 4/16/2006 3:26:37 PM EDT
[#37]
MORE STUFF:
NOVESKE S/S POLYGONAL 1X7" 7.5".............MIKE ROCK 1X7" 7.5" M193:.............2462 FPS...............................................2364 FPS MK 262:..........2142 FPS...............................................2053 FPS SAME LOTS OF AMMO, SAME LOCATION, BUT THE MIKE ROCK BARREL DATA WAS TAKEN ON A 20 DEGREE COOLER DAY.  WES GRANT M.S.T.N. |
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Posted: 4/16/2006 4:38:13 PM EDT
[#38]
MORE STUFF:
NOVESKE S/S POLYGONAL 1X7" 18".............KRIEGER 1X7.7" 20" MK 262:..........2760 FPS...............................................2795 FPS YET, LAST WEEK, AN 18" MRP BARREL DID 2744 FPS WITH MK 262 ON A SIMILAR DAY. THIS IS NOT SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT THAN WHAT THE NOVESKE 18" BARREL DID. ANOTHER 1X7.7" 20" KRIEGER I TESTED A FEW MONTHS AGO DID 2818 FPS WITH MK 262. AGAIN, VERY CLOSE TO WHAT THIS KRIEGER DID, SO I THINK THE DATA IS ACCURATE. WES GRANT M.S.T.N. |
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Posted: 4/16/2006 10:47:52 PM EDT
[#39]
"NOVESKE S/S POLYGONAL 1X7" 7.5".............MIKE ROCK 1X7" 7.5" M193:.............2462 FPS...............................................2364 FPS MK 262:..........2142 FPS...............................................2053 FPS" That's where it sounds like you are being ambiguous. You talk about a loose chamber but don't mention the bore spec- as someone previously mentioned a tighter bore should produce higher velocity. When you are talking about two 7.5's and one is producing 100FPS more velocity, there has to be something different in the specs and I don't believe it can be polygonal rifling. Too many inteligent people have stated that the polygonal rifling cannot change velocity for me to believe it can. How a tighter bore spec affects function I don't know (is it increased barrel heat and reduced bullet core to jacket strength?) If that were a side-effect it would be important to suppressor users. It would just be nice to be painted a more complete picture where the merits and shortcommings of whatever the hell is causing the claimed increase in velocity, or drop in velocity of another barrel are laid out. |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 4:53:19 AM EDT
[#40]
I DO NOT KNOW THE BORE SPECS, OR THE SPECIFICS OF THE RESPECTIVE CHAMBER SPECS, BOTH OF WHICH ARE PROPRIETARY. I REALLY DON'T CARE WHAT THEY ARE.
ALL I AM DOING IS REPORTING CHRONOGRAPH DATA. I DO SEE A TREND. I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THE CAUSE IS. AS I STATED IN THE FIRST POST, DRAW YOUR OWN CONCLUSIONS. NOW, IF YOU FEEL THE DATA IS INSUFFICIENT TO DO SO, DON'T DRAW ANY CONCLUSIONS. WHAT IS AMBIGUOUS ABOUT THAT? WES GRANT M.S.T.N. |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 6:03:21 AM EDT
[#42]
AT 435 FT MSL, 58 DEGREES, I GOT 2244 FPS WITH M855 OUT OF MY MIKE ROCK 7.5" ... PRETTY CLOSE!
WES GRANT M.S.T.N. |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 9:15:36 AM EDT
[#43]
How do you account for the 5 fps delta?  [BORROWED TYPING STYLE]JUST KIDDING!!![/BORROWED TYPING STYLE] Sincerely now, thanks again for posting the data. |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 11:01:16 AM EDT
[#44]
AS I WAS SCROLLING DOWN, READING YOUR REPLY, I FELT MY JAW DROP. THEN I READ THE LAST TWO LINES.
YOU GOT ME ON THAT ONE! WES |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 11:16:08 AM EDT
[#45]
I guess that's a part of a problem. If we compare to a Rock5r and don't have specs for either that makes it difficult to tell where the performance is comming from and make a comparison.
It's like comparing two engines with different compression ratios. I guess it's nice to see that there exist ways other than barrel length to manipulate muzzle velocity, it would just be nice to know what they were, how to obtain them, and the drawbacks of different methods in order to seek out the best product for the application. When everyone is guarding the information they are making it difficult to formulate an opinion of what is right for an application. |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 11:57:55 AM EDT
[#46]
AGREED - WE'LL NEVER KNOW EVERYTHING THE BARRELMAKERS KNOW. THEY'VE PROBABLY FORGOTTEN MORE THAN I'LL EVER REALLY UNDERSTAND ABOUT THEIR CRAFT.
I THINK WE CAN, HOWEVER, LOOK AT ANY GIVEN BARREL AS A "SYSTEM" OF SORTS, AND COMPARE ONE WITH ANOTHER. THE VARIABLES MIGHT INCLUDE: LENGTH MATERIAL TWIST RIFLING TYPE COST LONGEVITY ACCURACY WEIGHT AVAILABILITY VELOCITY OBTAINABLE WITH A GIVEN LOAD WES |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 12:12:10 PM EDT
[#47]
Good stuff, Wes and fellow data contributers. Thanks for sharing.
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Posted: 4/17/2006 12:43:44 PM EDT
[#48]
Perhaps CHAMBER could be added to this list (for the purpose of velocity comparison)? |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 4:42:07 PM EDT
[#49]
BLACKSHEEP 25,
I USED TO BE BLACKSHEEP 07 .... PROBABLY BEFORE YOU WERE BORN. AGREE - CHAMBER DIMENSIONING IS ANOTHER VARIABLE. WES |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 10:26:57 PM EDT
[#50]
Like I said, velocity is great and a good way for a user to measure the merits of a barrel, but if the user is a suppressor user and the barrel is getting velocity through decreased bore diameter and increased friction imparted to the bullet, the bullet jackets may be weakened and even more given to jacket seperation that Gemtech mentions all over their site; so I guess it might mean that some of these barrels aren't as lent to those users.
This is a thought of mine. The fact that barrel makers are playing with bore dimensions is new to me. Another potential issue could be excessive barrel heating. I guess when someone decides to do something new and different it suggests testing to develop information on wether anything other than the desired velocity is affected. Don't get me wrong it's cool to hear what kind of velocity people are getting with a given barrel. I just think that it would be nice to know what was interacting to make that happen. Chamber used, bore dimensions, materials, lapping/not lapping, bore plating and type of plating I guess those would seem to be some of the more important variables. |
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