User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 6/13/2005 7:39:05 PM EDT
[#1]
Looks like it adds about a pound.
The price is ok though. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/13/2005 10:53:53 PM EDT
[#2]
48thHighlander, Thank you. Frank |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/13/2005 10:57:18 PM EDT
[#3]
Variablebinary,
We hope to retail our gas piston flat top upper using M4 plastic hand guard, for around $850.00. This is an estimate. We will have better info. in 3-4 weeks. Best regards, Frank Patriot Ordnance Factory (POF-USA) |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/14/2005 12:17:07 AM EDT
[#4]
Thanks for the info. Please post in EE when you final products and pricing |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/14/2005 3:56:48 AM EDT
[#5]
Frank, i am still trying to figger out the FSB area, is the FSB a replacement ? is the FSB drilled out to accept the gas tube, how is that done ? the FSB don't seem wide enough to accept a tube that large ??
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/14/2005 4:21:48 AM EDT
[#6]
Shooting this with a M16, how critical is the buffer, in say the OCC shorty version. Having no experience with a non-gas upper, I don't know if a shorty POF upper is as sensitive to the right spring, buffer?
Just curious? Still think this is a great idea. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/14/2005 5:00:16 AM EDT
[#7]
yep, I need to get one of these.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/14/2005 7:03:55 AM EDT
[#8]
Hi all........
Just wanted to drop in and say hi. and add a few things. hope nobody minds. As far as these selling in the EE. That will be happening very soon. There will be a nice forum in the Industry Partners section for all of your questions on this very soon. As far as the last question about the OCC......back off...there all mine...hahahahahaha.....just kidding. That is actually the newest addiction to the lineup. Still doing a few tweaks to it, but it is running great. we will try it on different lowers that hopefully have different minor variations in the spring and piston....but, don't think that will be a problem. Buttplate, what part of AZ are you in? maybe we could get togethere....you bring your LW and I'll Bring one of the POF models and we can spend some time playing and evaluating them. and before anyone gets jumping up and down........I do not work for POF, I have a relationship with them that will become clearer shortly. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/14/2005 7:55:44 AM EDT
[#9]
Wow, those new models look like just the ticket. I agree with many, and feel I'd rather not have the Predator railsystem due to its size and bulk. But the new models look sweet......
I look forward to having a chance to check one of these out, might have to open the wallet on this. L-W? They have such a fine history, I'm sure that given enough rope they will remove any doubt... |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/14/2005 8:32:09 AM EDT
[#10]
POF just seems to have it more tegether than LW. LW got all tangled up in that conversion mess for one, and then there were the insane delays. I'd like both companies to succeed, but LW just doesnt come across as an organized company based the negative feedback that has come up on numerous occasions. Only time will tell, and I'm hoping LW steps up actually starts manufacturing uppers to sell at a reasonable price. For now though, if I were buying a piston system today, POF would get my money Furthermore the POF is $850 est. while LW is $1071.00. EDIT: LW recently posted that they were finally starting to manufacture complete rifles and uppers as of the 8th |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/14/2005 9:53:23 AM EDT
[#11]
There have been some comments about not liking the Predator rail system because of its size and bulk. I, personally, like rails only at the 12 o'clock position, and detachable ones at the other positions. To each his own.
Having said that, here's a quick comparison of the POF Predator carbine rail and, for example, the ARMS S.I.R. carbine rail. ARMS #45 CV S.I.R. System weighs 16.4 oz and costs $399. See www.armsmounts.com/catalog.php?action=124&item_id=42 POF 4X weighs 11.2 oz and costs $244. See www.pof-usa.com/P-416/P-416pricelist.htm John |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/14/2005 10:38:30 AM EDT
[#12]
I don't care if the rail is free. I won't buy one with that thing. As far as the ARMS, I don't care for it either, the looks or the price.
I think POF is really onto something with the polymer handguards. I know that's what I want. I'd also like an answer, please to: 1. How sensitive are these to requring buffer/spring changes in shorty barrels in an M16? 2. Will it be possible to get a two piece rail system to work, such as the YHM? I looked at the pictures and realize that some removal would be required, but.............how much? how difficult? Please could a knowledgeable person answer, someone with actual handon's experience/knowledge. One final question: How hard is it to change a barrel? If one gets shot out in my M16, what is necessary to change it? Does it require something special besides the regular tools? |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/14/2005 12:57:06 PM EDT
[#13]
POF's new models do look good. As for the Predator rail system, I have to wait and see if it really is too bulky when I get the DSA Z4-GTC upper. It appears to be the same general size as the ARMS SIR system. Also, kudos for the informative article you wrote on the topic in the Book of the AR-15. Good reading. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/14/2005 3:36:17 PM EDT
[#14]
That's a good point. POF is licensing their technology to other AR15 makers, which brings up one step closer to piston uniformity. That's for sure a long lasting strategy. I dont think any piston system will survive if the patent holding company tries to run solo with the technology. That shows some clever business savvy on POF's part, which is also very encouraging for potential customers |
||
|
|
|
Posted: 6/14/2005 4:25:30 PM EDT
[#15]
I have talked to both POF and Leitner-Wise through email and by phone. Both companies impressed me. Both companies answered any questions that I had and replied to me in a very prompt manner. I like both designs. They will be great for the ar15 and will carry it into the future.
I chose the POF system for now because I liked the simplicity of the gas system and becasue the overall package that you get with the topend is a real deal. A fluted barrel, the vortex flash hider and the predator rail ( in which I like alot) for that price is a bargain. Not to mention all of these components are hard chromed!! In the next few months I will hopefully be getting the LW upper too. I dont think that one can have enough gas piston uppers for their ARs! This sytem is well thought out and will probably function equally to the POF. So I think that instead of bashing either company, we should all be greatful that we are finally getting some decent options to help enhance the reliability of our weapons! |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/14/2005 7:52:08 PM EDT
[#16]
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/14/2005 8:04:06 PM EDT
[#17]
i am certain the following is your OPINION ?? right ? needless to say my friend i have a totally opposing opinion, see inserted opposing view.......
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/14/2005 8:07:23 PM EDT
[#18]
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/14/2005 8:10:43 PM EDT
[#19]
GOOD NOTE !! i agree !! now show some photos of this system broken down , OK ? |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/14/2005 9:10:59 PM EDT
[#20]
buttplate....chill dude. I don't think they're claiming battle tested at LW yet AFAIK.
As for the pricing.....there's no reason to crank the shiznit out if you can't make money. If POF can do it at 850 and are happy...all power to them. The market is big enough for a number of players and you can see how there is a spread of products and prices on the standard gas actions. I realise that you have a vested interest in seeing the company take market share etc. but generally things are moving forward and that's the important thing. I really like the supershorty POF supeershorty. SHould be a real blast. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/15/2005 3:21:24 AM EDT
[#21]
there is nothing to "chill" about my friend, i keep asking posters to show some photos of the POF unit broken down with parts clearly visible, i even asked Frank for more info but no one seems to want to back up their claim as to how simple it is.., just show me the parts OK ??
i have my L-W unit here for comparison, the FSB on the POF unit with that bulbous tube below appears to be susceptible to damage in combat situations, whereas the L-W unit is completely enclosed under the hand guards. this is just an OPINION !!! but just from what i can see, the L-W unit is combat tested & wanted by our military & the POF unit will satisfy the the weekend warriors & plinkers if you do not believe me, just call L-W and ask for the 4 minute "Tradeshow DVD", they will be more than happy to send you a FREE copy......., and tell them ol "Buttplate" sent you OK ?? |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/15/2005 3:35:26 AM EDT
[#22]
Here's my OPINION! Pompous know-if-all internet asses that represent competing businesses (LW) that do nothing but complain on a post dedicated to a different manufacturer (POF), do their business (LW) little good, and quite frankly in this instance, Buttplug, you've convinced me, to not purchase LW products. That's a pretty fine job. You're sounding like another fabulous salesman also from AZ, that highly touts his products, Toad Bailey.
LW would be better served muzzling you. That's my opinion. This thread is about POF, not your porduct. Is LW used in combat? Don't know, I retired from the Army after 20 years, and I use my M16's for fun, as I don't anticipate any combat situations. So,...............inquiring minds want to know, are YOU ready for combat? Being an internet mall ninja commando really doesn't count. Go away! 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/15/2005 4:03:53 AM EDT
[#23]
"Buttplug" how quaint !! did you know that personal insults are not permitted on this BB ?? well i am glad that you will not be buying any L-W products as you play ground ninjas prefer boys toys, L-W is a mans tool for a mans job & is mmilitary tested & approved for further purchase, can you say that about you favorite toy ?? 20 years ???? that's all ?? i have 25 years under my belt from dedicated service in the U.S. Navy !!!!!! another thing i noticed.., they don't teach spelling in the Army do they ?? have a great day my friend & enjoy your toy & post a range report OK ?? |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/15/2005 5:10:08 AM EDT
[#24]
I agree with V188.....
Buttplug why don't you go play in the road..... this thread is about POF.....go start your own thread on how L-W wonderguns are currently in use by the Coast Guard Special Reserve Spetsnaz Forces of Uzgrokia (or did they have problems and lose that contract.....). You are just coming off making them look bad. You like the product fine, run with it. This thread is about something else, don't be a troll in it. ANYONE in the industry knows the military has looked at just about everything out there when it comes to weapons, optics and gear. Just because the military has looked at something doesn't mean squat. More 10x42 Super Sniper scopes from SWFA will see combat than anything L-W makes. They are at least actually fielded by the 10th Mountain. Your rant about why POF won't send you a gun or detailed pics? Why should he when its obvious your only intent is to be an asshat and run his product down. Basically you're doing nothing but making yourself, and L-W for that matter, look like an ass..... and anyone who would make snide comments towards a man with 20 years service in serving his country will never see any of my money......... |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/15/2005 5:15:55 AM EDT
[#25]
Buttplate, do you know what else isn't allowed? You now represent a competing manufacturer, you are ALL OVER this thread. You were the last person to post to it last night when I left the computer, you're the last person to post to it as I look in this morning. Before you posted that you were financially invested in LW this type of posting would hardly be tolerable. Now that you posted your affiliation, it is completely untolerable.
I am not saying you can not post. I am not saying you can not ask questions. As an investor of a company, I am saying you need to do either in a professional and courteous manner. I am also saying you have not been professional or courteous. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/15/2005 6:03:53 AM EDT
[#26]
Book of the AR15 did an extensive write up on the POF system. Just 3 parts added. They put it though the paces and their impressions were positive |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/15/2005 6:21:27 AM EDT
[#27]
Where do you get the "three parts added" from? There are more parts and mods than that. HFG |
||
|
|
|
Posted: 6/15/2005 6:25:02 AM EDT
[#28]
quoting this to the new page because it needs to be seen. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/15/2005 6:31:29 AM EDT
[#29]
Once Again: Book of the AR15, page 58 there is a photo of the gas system taken apart. Looks like 3 parts Book of the AR15 on page 59, in big black letters: "ADDS ONLY 3 PARTS TO CURRENT SYSTEM" I recommend buying an issue of Book of the AR15 and reading up the POF system. Very informative |
|||
|
|
|
Posted: 6/15/2005 6:37:19 AM EDT
[#30]
Wow, what did I start!
 I think POF has a great system based on the reviews and I have seen pics on their website that show the individual parts. Regarding the gas tube it is just as robust and maybe more so than the FAL that it was modeled after and it does sit under the handguards. If it gets damaged then your FSB will probably be F upped as well. Admitedly most of us will never be that hard on our equipment so I would save the what ifs for the military. By the way I just sent my upper to LW for conversion and will also be buying a POF in the near future. Only way to compare is to shoot them both and live with them for a while. T 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/15/2005 6:41:33 AM EDT
[#31]
So what did it say about the weight?
HOW MUCH MORE weight does it add? |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/15/2005 6:55:06 AM EDT
[#32]
Dont know for sure, the magazine didnt say I dont think. Complete DSA rifle is 7.75lbs with Pred Rail. Minus the Pred Rail, figure about 6.25-6.75lbs. Call POF to be sure |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/15/2005 7:18:37 AM EDT
[#33]
Okay, thanks.
Previously it was stated the pred rail is 11.2 oz (.7lbs) that's 7.05lbs without handguards (add standard M4 handguards and barrel nut 0.5lbs). I'll safely wager that this will be this system's major short coming (It probably runs like a champ). |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/15/2005 12:48:11 PM EDT
[#34]
Interesting, the LW is 5.75lbs, the 10.3" being 5.25lbs - from a military standpoint weight is a major issue, from a civilian standpoint I guess it's moot. IIRC from my inspection, there were more than three additional parts. HFG |
||
|
|
|
Posted: 6/15/2005 2:56:49 PM EDT
[#35]
HFG,
You mentioned on a previous post in this thread that the POF system "wasn't for us", or something to that effect. What things about it didn't make the grade? Weight? Obviously altered FSB? Don't get me wrong---I love my L-W upper but I'd sure like to have a POF too! I'm curious as to what types of gigs it had in your eyes as an "end-user" in real life. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/15/2005 3:15:45 PM EDT
[#36]
HipFiredGun, you could say the POF uses more than three parts, but it depends how you define "parts." You also need a dedicated bolt carrier (which is slightly heavier than standard). But doesn't the LW system also require a new bolt carrier? At any rate, every AR needs a bolt carrier, so I wouldn't call it an "extra" part.
Moreover, under the current system, the tappet (the piston "head") and the piston rod are two separate parts, but they could be machined as one, I would think, like an AK piston, to simplify the system yet again. I think we don't have all the data on the table yet to make a weight comparison. For example, the POF has a heavy barrel, though fluted, under the handguards. If all other parts of the rifle were comparable to those used in the LW, I would still think the POF would weigh slightly more because of the longer length of the piston tube, the beefier gas block needed to fit the tube, and the gas plug. So I suppose the question is: Is the easy accessibility, for maintenance, of the piston parts via the gas plug worth a few ounces? Other than that, what are the real differences between the two? Like the HK G36, the HK 416, and the FN SCAR, both use short-stroke piston mechanisms. I see it as a Ford vs. Chevy issue. To each his own. John |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/15/2005 6:50:15 PM EDT
[#38]
There are some differences that should account for the weight difference. The POF uses some real beefy looking metel in their piston components, while the metal in the LW system looks thinner, yet more complex. The LW uses a 14.5" M4 profiled barrel, while the POF is a fluted HBAR 16" with Vortex. That too will make a significant weight difference as well. It's hard to tell anything about either based purely upon photos. It looks as if POF gives more for the money though. Pred rail, Vortex, fluting, chrome lined bolt and piston parts. All for a really good price, while LW is more standard M4 style, yet costs more. Only time will tell I dont know why so many LW fans are so prepared to beat the hell out of POF every which way, but I'm inclined to think SRTM4 has a point. There are sure to be potential customers that have turned away from LW because of the pushy relentlessness of certain LW supporters          |
|||
|
|
|
Posted: 6/15/2005 7:17:14 PM EDT
[#39]
Okay, putting a standard M4 barrel with A2 flash suppressor will save you .26 lbs over a 14.5 inch fluted barrel with vortex.
Which brings you to 7.3 lbs. We're getting closer.  |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/15/2005 8:32:23 PM EDT
[#40]
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/15/2005 9:03:38 PM EDT
[#41]
Very nice. Thanks I especially like the way the whole piston assembly can be removed through the FAL gas plug for maintenance. No need to dismantle the hand guards. Very simple. This could put a dent in my XCR ambitions... Wait a second...I see a trend  
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/15/2005 9:38:04 PM EDT
[#42]
.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/15/2005 11:22:47 PM EDT
[#43]
new-arguy,
Thank you. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/15/2005 11:44:11 PM EDT
[#44]
Variablebinary,
Thank you for the nice pictures. Here's a couple of pictures of how we protect our gas piston operating system from being damaged from the environment. Our Predator tactical rail system has been tested and will hold over 600 lbs static weight for 1.5 hours.  To date we have never seen a plastic hand guard hold this type of weight, nor have we seen any data from the military or manufactures testing rail systems like we have. I'll let the pictures speak for itself. Best regards, Frank Patriot Ordnance Factory (POF-USA) www.POF-USA.com [email protected]   |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/16/2005 3:47:01 AM EDT
[#45]
how come the tires are not indented from sitting on those chunks of metal ?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/16/2005 7:11:38 AM EDT
[#46]
Buttplate, look closer, they are, and if some don't appear to be, it's just the camera angle. You callin' Mr. DeSomma a liar?
Please chill out, it's just guns and gun parts. You've got your LW system; be happy! It's not like someone's trying to teach terrorists to detect our stealth fighters using simple cell phone networks. Now that would be something to get worked up about. Why so emotionally involved over some gun parts? You don't have significant amounts of money riding on the commercial success of a particular system, do you? John |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/16/2005 7:34:10 AM EDT
[#47]
+1 |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/16/2005 8:00:45 AM EDT
[#48]
Make your own minds up on this. The POF system was too heavy and basically a commercial product, not suited to the intended role - whether it strips easy or not is hardly relevant, in point of fact, LW recommends against dismantling the system as it is self cleaning and we saw no reason to doubt that.
All in all, pay your money and make your choice - it's whatever makes you happy that matters. As for being turned off of something because someone supports it really harks back to a school playground mentality - make up your own mind. HFG |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/16/2005 8:42:20 AM EDT
[#49]
HipFiredGun wrote: "Make your own minds up on this. The POF system was too heavy and basically a commercial product, not suited to the intended role."
Making up our own minds requires hard data to make a good decision. Sound like you've got some hard data. You say the POF system was "too heavy." What, exactly, did it weigh versus the LW system, the weights of which you've already noted? And I know you're smart enough to know when an apples to apples comparison is or is not being made, right? Different barrel contours and all? You say it's "basically a commercial product," implying it's not a military-grade product. Details, please. You say it's "not suited for the intended role," that is, as a military-grade replacement upper for combat weapons. Details, please. I don't think of you as a guy who makes vague hints denigrating a competing product, but doesn't offer objective data to back up his assertions. So you're a friend of LW. I can handle that. We adults here can certainly have a reasonable discussion about gas-piston systems, their differences and their pros and cons. So please give us the details to back up your vague criticisms. Tell us why, exactly, you're saying what you're saying. John |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/16/2005 9:02:34 AM EDT
[#50]
Thanks Buttplug! I am definately not buying a LW product just out of spite! Oh...did they not teach grammar in the Navy? The POF is looking better and better. No offense to any Navy guys, just Buttplug. |
||
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
