.

Quoted: if the XM110 program was KAC's to lose they wouldn't have held a solicatation. Fact is that everyone knows there are good systems out there which actually work.

Every Big Army contract over a certain number of units requires a tendered solicitation.

Pics?

coldblue-
it's about time the Army called for a 7.62mm semiauto sniper rifle requirement.  Best of luck to you all's submission.   Now, can you squeeze out a few hundred URX's for us civilians?  





As for the caliber issue-

7.62 NATO is really the only logical choice from a regular military perspective.  I've never been a sniper and my knowledge of the subject is limited to a few articles in MC Gazette and a few conversations.  But, I'm told that shooting ball ammo out of M40s it very common, especially in combat.

It really not that illogical.  Let's say your scout/sniper team was deployed to the little Fallujah clean up op of a few months ago.  You're going house to house and are basically shooting 24/7.  

- How long will it be before you use up the ammo you can carry?  My guess: no more than 6 hours

- How long will it take you to get ammo from your supply chain? My guess: the highest echelon of command I have any interaction with is a company commander.  I'm lucky to get water and would LOVE to munch on even the infamous (and discontinued) egg omlette MRE.    

- How often do you run into  tanks and company weapons platoons and how much better supplied are they?  My guess: all the time and much better.  

- What's the range of most of your targets?  My guess:  90% are no more than 100m.  Occasionally there's a 500m shot, and maybe 2-3 times a day a 1000m shot.   I can shoot 4-5 ball rounds at the 1000m target and then I'll either hit it or it'll move.  


So, my choice is 7.62.

tag

Quoted: coldblue- it's about time the Army called for a 7.62mm semiauto sniper rifle requirement.  Best of luck to you all's submission.   Now, can you squeeze out a few hundred URX's for us civilians?   As for the caliber issue- 7.62 NATO is really the only logical choice from a regular military perspective.  I've never been a sniper and my knowledge of the subject is limited to a few articles in MC Gazette and a few conversations.  But, I'm told that shooting ball ammo out of M40s it very common, especially in combat. It really not that illogical.  Let's say your scout/sniper team was deployed to the little Fallujah clean up op of a few months ago.  You're going house to house and are basically shooting 24/7.   - How long will it be before you use up the ammo you can carry?  My guess: no more than 6 hours - How long will it take you to get ammo from your supply chain? My guess: the highest echelon of command I have any interaction with is a company commander.  I'm lucky to get water and would LOVE to munch on even the infamous (and discontinued) egg omlette MRE.     - How often do you run into  tanks and company weapons platoons and how much better supplied are they?  My guess: all the time and much better.   - What's the range of most of your targets?  My guess:  90% are no more than 100m.  Occasionally there's a 500m shot, and maybe 2-3 times a day a 1000m shot.   I can shoot 4-5 ball rounds at the 1000m target and then I'll either hit it or it'll move.   So, my choice is 7.62.

Delivering a steady supply of the special match ammo to the 8 snipers/M40's at the infantry battaliions was a challenge from the get-go, even during decades of "peacetime."  Often the Bn S-4's lacked the T/O required Ammo Tech, or the Ammo tech was busy helping the S-4 supply other types of ammo by the "10-thousand round" count, food rations and water to the 1,000+ guys.
Of course, this concept worked well at Quantico where the doctrine was formulated, enshrined, and now worshipped.

I remember using de-linked M80 ball all the time for practice and even zeroing (knowing the off-set for the Special Ball we used in those days).

The best thing about snipers and 7.62 today is the newer M118LR 175 gr. fodder.  In our (KAC's) Mk 11 Mod 0 20" Obermyer barrels, the velocitiy at 1,000 meters is 1, 099 fps.  This makes the bullet "super-sonic" over its effective range (i.e., ability to hold 1 MOA or less).  The former 169 gr ammo (M856) gave this up at about 850 meters.  This twist had to change from 1:11.25" to 1:11, but this was a small price to pay for re-attaining the 1,000 meter effective range.  Especially since the 169 seems to be as accurate in the 1:11.

In my experience, a human hit (torso, head, stomach, leg) by a bullet of such weight at a velocity of 1,000 fps is highly unlikely to continue the battle for the next 990 meters to attain hand grenade effective range against your position.  (Note: I was always more afraid of bad guys within hand grenade range.)

Also, urban snipers surely work at closer ranges than we learned at school, least that is what snipers armed with Mk 11's are telling me about Iraq.

Of course, there is a sniper role for larger more potent calibers like .338 and .50 BMG.  However, my opinion is the sniper's "ultimate weapon" is a radio in contact with Marine Artillery or Marine Close Air Support.

Quoted: Of course, there is a sniper role for larger more potent calibers like .338 and .50 BMG.  However, my opinion is the sniper's "ultimate weapon" is a radio in contact with Marine Artillery or Marine Close Air Support.

You and I both, however it appears that there is much less of that occurign these days - even the eyes of the ground are doing less observation work and getting more trigger time.

So when can we expect pics?

***Armalite, Bushmaster, Remington/DPMS, KAC, DSA should all be there (at least said they would).

So, does anybody know if the DSA submission for the "SASS" is a FAL??

Quoted: ***Armalite, Bushmaster, Remington/DPMS, KAC, DSA should all be there (at least said they would).

So, does anybody know if the DSA submission for the "SASS" is a FAL??




***What else?   :)

BTW, count Bushmaster out of that earlier quote - word is they sat this one out.  I forgot to list CheyTac and a two other manufacturers before that had mentioned their plans to get in, so again, we shall see how crowded it is at the trough this go-round.


Kel

.

There is also a curve ball coming out of left field that is being considered but is not an item that was submitted in direct response to the solicitation.  Interesting riddle, no?  Sorry...that would be telling.

anything new on this?

Quoted: anything new on this?

***SASS testing has started, and is ongoing/progressing.  There *shouldn't* be any news during this period, as testing is supposed to be confidential.  I'm sure someone knows something, but at this stage, I'd consider any gossip-nuggets probably of questionable origin.

We await patiently...


Kel

.

Quoted: the MK11 photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=19831 I am guessing the FH off the SR25K Battle Rifle system was used, and potentially URX as a rail? Dave any pics?  Inquiring kit sluts need pics

t

Quoted: So, does anybody know if the DSA submission for the "SASS" is a FAL??

Here's a funny one. I posted a detail and picture request for the DSA entry, on the DSA forum, over on the FAL Files. At first, there was a reply from DSA, saying that they had submitted an entry, but they would not be posting any picture's. I checked back two days later, and they had disapeared the whole post.

Quoted: Quoted: So, does anybody know if the DSA submission for the "SASS" is a FAL?? Here's a funny one. I posted a detail and picture request for the DSA entry, on the DSA forum, over on the FAL Files. At first, there was a reply from DSA, saying that they had submitted an entry, but they would not be posting any picture's. I checked back two days later, and they had disapeared the whole post.

Wow, that is strange.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So, does anybody know if the DSA submission for the "SASS" is a FAL?? Here's a funny one. I posted a detail and picture request for the DSA entry, on the DSA forum, over on the FAL Files. At first, there was a reply from DSA, saying that they had submitted an entry, but they would not be posting any picture's. I checked back two days later, and they had disapeared the whole post. Wow, that is strange.

================
Well, heck...let's see the pic here!

tag

Quoted: Of course, there is a sniper role for larger more potent calibers like .338 and .50 BMG.  However, my opinion is the sniper's "ultimate weapon" is a radio in contact with Marine Artillery or Marine Close Air Support.

God Bless the USS New Jersey................'83.

Semper Fi, Kopfjaeger.

Dave S

I was a "4" in Europe and in the states.  I can only imagine the challenge of getting that munition out of the ASP and to the end user somewhere.  It is not at all unusual to submit the requistion to the ASP and find that they are out of what you need until "later".  I got an 02 priority req approved for LAWs when my company in Vietam was expecting an Armor attack (that did not occur fotunately).  The ASP had no problem saying no we're out.  We got them flown in the next day though.

 As you said, ammo is delivered by the case to the units, not by the bullet.  In the Army with a Task Force (Combined Arms), it is interesting to resupply an Infantry unit attached to an Armor unit and visa versa.  The same us true of the other classes of supplies.

Someone talk......please!

It is odd - no leaks

Okay, time to bring out the "Comfy Chair", to borrow a line from Monty Python.  Yes, the lack of leakage is intriguing...and frustrating.  

My source tells me there are two favorites.  Armalite, and Remington with a stronger lean toward Remington.  Keep in mind, who ever gets the nod, another request for bid will be submitted to build to the awarded companies spec.  "Big Green" has the political walk and talk, within our military.  They have been doing business with them a long time.

Jim

TAG FOR LATER READING

this is killing me....

Quoted: First off and most importantly, I hope who ever has the best system wins. Our guys deserve the best and that's all that matters Assuming KAC is only one of a number of entries that meets the requirements, works as needed and is completely reliable then no offense but I hope it isn't KAC that is selected. I say that because if they win, you can forget about being able to buy it or any of the parts made specifically for it if you have any desire to make your own clone. If you look at KAC's history with civilian sales of AR\M16 parts they already make, you either can't buy them or their availability is so bad that you might as well say you can't buy them. When you can find them in the civilian market, they are over priced and are often out-of-spec and\or factory seconds that are not identified as such. No thanks Just my joy-killing $.02 worth

Just like HK

I would rather see Remington or Armalite get it!

Quoted: Quoted: First off and most importantly, I hope who ever has the best system wins. Our guys deserve the best and that's all that matters Assuming KAC is only one of a number of entries that meets the requirements, works as needed and is completely reliable then no offense but I hope it isn't KAC that is selected. I say that because if they win, you can forget about being able to buy it or any of the parts made specifically for it if you have any desire to make your own clone. If you look at KAC's history with civilian sales of AR\M16 parts they already make, you either can't buy them or their availability is so bad that you might as well say you can't buy them. When you can find them in the civilian market, they are over priced and are often out-of-spec and\or factory seconds that are not identified as such. No thanks Just my joy-killing $.02 worth Just like HK Screw them both!

The original statement was moronic enough, but you actually agreeing with it boggles the mind. You don't see a difference between HK refusing to sell to civilians and KAC's backlog due to the war effort? Do you remember that little event that happened on 9/11?  Maybe we can call off the War on Terrorism so a few guys can have more toys collecting dust.  Would that make you happy?

Quoted: The original statement was moronic enough, but you actually agreeing with it boggles the mind.

+1.   I don't know if I'd necessarily say "moronic", but I completely disagree with the sentiment expressed.  

I'm amazed at the number of people on this board who think that getting ARs and related items is like going shopping - it should always be there instantaneously for whoever might want it.  I gtuess that works for civilian-only companies, but for a company with significant LE (to say nothing of military) contracts that's just not possible.  

The fact is, KAC has only limited shop space (a situation made worse by its recent troubles) and can only produce so many items at a given level of quality.  It's not like Colt or the big european companies that can make 1000s of rifles a day.   Despite this, I've seen Stoner rifles of various kinds in civilian hands - including one at a recent gunshow.   I could have made it mine.  I also think MSTN can get you just about any KAC item you might want.  

As for HK, I see HK items (USP) in every gunshop in this area.  P7s and Benellis aren't uncommon either.  Yes, they don't sell semiauto G3s or G36s, but you've got to remember that they make their stuff in Germany.  There's such a thing as an import ban which prohibits foreign semiauto military knockoffs.  And I also know that JLD makes a (very nice) G3 clone.  The fact is however that these rifles aren't up to HK factory specs and that making a factory-spec US G3 receiver and parts with factory-spec assembly would jack up the price of a US HK91 to a point where it wouldn't be competitive with the JLD.  Remember, putting together a Bundeswehr spec G3 is not like ripping up a (non-HK?) G3, putting in replacement US parts, and throwing it onto a reverse-engineered receiver.   There MUCH more quality and care that goes in to the HK G3's assembly.   And unfortunately I just don't think it's economical to make it in the US.  

So, the point is that KAC and HK do sell firearms to civilians despite internet opinion to the contrary and I don't think the fact that you can't get whatever you might want from them whenever you want at prices that match (say) Model 1 sales is a fair reason to wish those companies to lose a contract.  Sheesh!

KoAT
[who's pissed that Remington won't sell its PSS or M24 to civilians and doesn't think it should win the SASS contract ]

[edited to clarify some things and make an undeservedly harsh post a bit softer]

This reminds me of the situation at Smith Enterprise.  They are getting more and more military work, foreign and domestic.  Yet, there are people out there crabbing becausing they can't have a M14SE Crazy Horse SASS in a week or even a month because of the evolving  Global War on Terror. We are at war -- period.  Sorry for any inconvenience.  Admittedly, you can just forget about ever getting an SEI suppresor -- no civilian sales under any cicumstances.    If you call Smith right now they'll tell you to take a number and they'll get to in time, but our Servicemembers and our Allies come first.  I'm sure it's the same situation with KAC and others.  

Now, back to the real issue at hand.  Remington/DPMS, eh?  Interesting.  Why are they favored?  My guess is price point, assuming functionality is comparible to KAC.  Still, I'm just a blackbord on a fence...

I didn't necessarly agree with the original statement but I just think companies like KAC & HK have gotten alittle too full of themselves!

Neither company have the best products available, although both make great products. It's not like our manufacturing plants are being bombed by the enemy that they cannot keep production up to the demand. Gee, Do they run a 2nd or 3rd shift? Isn't KAC moving to a new facility?

One of my local dealers carry HK & KAC products & says KAC polocies towards dealers is one of the worst he has ever had to deal with.

Quoted: I didn't necessarly agree with the original statement but I just think companies like KAC & HK have gotten alittle too full of themselves! Neither company have the best products available, although both make great products. It's not like our manufacturing plants are being bombed by the enemy that they cannot keep production up to the demand. Gee, Do they run a 2nd or 3rd shift? Isn't KAC moving to a new facility? One of my local dealers carry HK & KAC products & says KAC polocies towards dealers is one of the worst he has ever had to deal with.

Dont know much about mass production do you?

Tag for later.

Quoted: Quoted: I didn't necessarly agree with the original statement but I just think companies like KAC & HK have gotten alittle too full of themselves! Neither company have the best products available, although both make great products. It's not like our manufacturing plants are being bombed by the enemy that they cannot keep production up to the demand. Gee, Do they run a 2nd or 3rd shift? Isn't KAC moving to a new facility? One of my local dealers carry HK & KAC products & says KAC polocies towards dealers is one of the worst he has ever had to deal with. Dont know much about mass production do you?

No I guess not! Just worked for a major firearms mfg in CT for 2 years! Hardest part of the job was finding qualified CNC operators!

The rest is monkey work!

Sounds like your set of problems may be do to other issues...  Calling, or feeling like your operators / employees are monkeys or treating people poorly might be one of the reasons you were having problems keeping (or getting) people working for you.

Your two years working for a company is not really that much to go by. Owning a company is another world all together. In the big picture, machines only can produce so many items in a day. Buying new machines to produce more product is all fine and well but the thing you have to remember is that this war is not going to last forever and eventually their supply will exceed the demand. When that happens you have unnecessary equipment and employees to deal with. If the company does the math and the overall cost is more than the gain they are not going to do it. If a company can make money off of something they probably will (if the reward is greater than the risk) but that is a decision up to the owners, board members and/or bankers. Not a floor hand (employee) or a bunch of guys hunkered around their computer as they simply do not know all of the facts / issues involved.

It is simple math.

Your point is understood & well taken! One of the problems the company had to deal with is that they had to pay union wages to their workers & once in the union, many would slack off & there wasn't much the company could!( They started giving basic math & reading tests) then there was a cry of discrimation. The monkey work comment was that you could take someone with no more than an 8th grade education & have them assemble firearms. While there I had my ear to the wall & personal input from many in management (Plant Director,Mfg Director & Customer Service Mgr) the union with it's grip was a major problem.

The old school workers (10-25yrs) were the only ones that they didn't have problems with.

As far as mfg costs :

Total costs per rifle :$145-175 If my memory is correct (early 90's)

Wholsale to distrubutors was much more.

Back to the topic though, I still think KAC & HK are still too full of themselves!

I like Colt too but I also think they are too full of themselves too!

I just hope the best product is selected whoever made it!

I know KAC is backlogged from both US and Allied mil units.

Trying to get M4 and M5 RAS's for Afghan we where given a 6 month ETA.

IRRC they pump out 1500 M5 RAS to FN for M16A4's a month - plus M4 RAS orders.

Add in M4 suppressors - Mk11 production, SR16E3 carbines to gov't and foreign sales you get the idea.

yup, the gun industry is very busy now, thats for sure

.

Tagged.

I really like Armalite's products and I hope they get the contract if they meet the requirements. If they get the contract or whomever gets it the same compalaint that you have with KAC will be the same with that company...
It's just a fact of life. You'll have to deal with it or buy from a company who did not get the contract.

well i agree with those who think Knights needs to pull there head out of there butt.

yes they do have a commitment to the military but that does still not explane why the awful customer service prior to 9/11, and the reports of the ultra expensive MK11's that are in civy hands are all seconds,

now i have heard this a number of times.  coincidence? maybe, but it still does not come across too well when you start to see people trying to track down new bolts for 800 dollars for the Mk11 on Biggerhammer.net because there last one crapped the bed and knights can not send one out in a resonable amount of time

personally from all the SR25/Mk11's that i handled, all were military and felt and work good.  i dont have any personal expierience on the Civy models but i have heard and seen enough to send me to the armalite camp where parts are as reliable and much more availible.

Interesting mag release.