Quoted: I first off want to state to everyone in this thread that I do NOT consider myself a weapons expert. I try not to answer any questions that are technical because I only have limited knowledge and experience other than what it takes to fire them as a novice with limited training behind one.  I have taken just ONE class at SIGARMS Academy - Defensive Rifle One.  I do know this, get the mentioned Bushmaster/Colt  ect. simply because they are perfect for learning what really matters in a long arm.  My new BM carbine got scratched, and scuffed up during that training class. If I bought one of the LB's or Wilson's I'd be pretty bent because that nice fiinsh that you pay for would be fucked up by now.   So as one newb to another Brett, start with something simple first, because you're gonna realize whats important and whats not in terms of quality and price. These guys are a little rough around the edges over here, but they just want everyone to be on the same page knowledge wise.  Good luck. J223...

Well, thanks for the advice and whatnot.


But I've been posting at AR15.com for three or four years now...  Do I still qualify as a 'newb'?

Quoted: Quoted: I first off want to state to everyone in this thread that I do NOT consider myself a weapons expert. I try not to answer any questions that are technical because I only have limited knowledge and experience other than what it takes to fire them as a novice with limited training behind one.  I have taken just ONE class at SIGARMS Academy - Defensive Rifle One.  I do know this, get the mentioned Bushmaster/Colt  ect. simply because they are perfect for learning what really matters in a long arm.  My new BM carbine got scratched, and scuffed up during that training class. If I bought one of the LB's or Wilson's I'd be pretty bent because that nice fiinsh that you pay for would be fucked up by now.   So as one newb to another Brett, start with something simple first, because you're gonna realize whats important and whats not in terms of quality and price. These guys are a little rough around the edges over here, but they just want everyone to be on the same page knowledge wise.  Good luck. J223... Well, thanks for the advice and whatnot. But I've been posting at AR15.com for three or four years now...  Do I still qualify as a 'newb'?

TIFWIW, as I mean this in all honesty and sincerity - the knowledge you showed, or lack thereof, made alot of people here think you were a newb, including me.

Fair enough.

Without getting into what brand is the better bargain, lets look at this another way...


1/2 MOA

Ok, what is this rifle being used for?
If it strictly a bench rifle, that will sit on sandbags or a bipod for every shot, with hand loaded match grade ammo....and you only plan to carefully shoot groups on paper targets, then maybe this is your choice.

If this is going to be a multi purpose AR (defense, SHTF, target, etc)...you can save an awful lot of money with a less model in another brand.

For my money, if the goal was complete accuracy, I would go with a bolt gun...not a semi-auto.
1/2 MOA is pretty damn tight...and if the rifle will really do it, and you have the money to spend, no harm done...just consider ALL the reasons you are buying the rifle, and whether or not you handload your own ammo....do you really need that kind of accuracy?

Yes, there are simplier, reliable 2 stage triggers that would improve on a stock trigger - such as a RRA 2 stage.  No screws to loosen up, springs to pop off (yes, it has springs, but they can't go anywhere)

Some might say this is still too much for a self defense gun, but I've found it to be highly reliable and an improvement.   I wasn't as lucky with a Compass Lake 2 stage (parts to loosen) and just sold it off.

Bottom line is you can build a rifle with all of the features of the LB for a good $600 or more less. The only thing you will be missing is the LB name.

So after all of this, no LB rifle owners have come forward.  Brett, my advice would be to take bigbore up on his offer.

Quoted: Yes, there are simplier, reliable 2 stage triggers that would improve on a stock trigger - such as a RRA 2 stage.  No screws to loosen up, springs to pop off (yes, it has springs, but they can't go anywhere) Some might say this is still too much for a self defense gun, but I've found it to be highly reliable and an improvement.   I wasn't as lucky with a Compass Lake 2 stage (parts to loosen) and just sold it off. www.rockriverarms.com/images/nmtrgg.gif

Cool.

Brett

I guess you must reside in the hand gun or other forums on ARFCOM because of your novice questions about Chromed barrels and the like. For having some 400+ posts and been here since 03 that is.  

I ask what articles have you been reading and what publications are they in?
If they are in a truly unbiased publication I might consider them 50% accurate at best.
No publication will bite the hand that feeds them to hard.

Another thing you should know is this. The accuracy reports on any rifle are also half truths. They take the stats of the worlds best competitive shooters and this is what they use. These  people do not use an off the shelf made weapon. The ones they get to use  have been practically hand made through the entire process. Special attention to every possible detail. I bet they would only pick one or two barrels out of a thousand to install on the competition weapon. The weapon you would/will have bought would never be as accurate. Why you might ask, because it would have been built on the factory line with hundreds of others just like everybody else’s.
   
Just as an example in a completely different area but one that I have first hand knowledge
Of. Remote Control car racing. Sounds silly but true none the less. The battery’s they sell for big dollars to all us eager laymen that want the best for our R/C Cars are not better than any other. I will not get into the technical stuff here about them.
However the battery’s that the top champs use, have been carefully built inspected and tested by hand far away from the factory floor, as well as all the other components.
The mass produced battery’s can only do 65% of what the hand built ones can do.
You will not find this information on the printed page for the public to read.

The point I am driving home here is do not believe every thing you read.

Do not get me wrong here. I am not kicking the Les Baer AR in the teeth or anything.
I have never even seen one. I am sure it is a fine weapon in every aspect. Just not as great as they want you to believe.

Another point you might consider is this. There is a lot of chest thumping in this forum about who makes the best AR and the whys and why knot’s. I have yet to see anyone mention the L/B in any favorable way. Unlike yourself, I have read the AR threads almost every day and have done so since I joined.  

This is without a doubt one of those thread where the original poster has an opinion already, is only looking for validation of that opinion, and is going to cry when that opinion is contradicted (regardless of how factual or logical the contradiction is).

Les Baer ARs are a waste of money if you're looking for a functioning tool.  The function they have that other ARs don't is getting to take it to the range and brag that you dropped $2k+ on the rifle.  If that is what you're looking for, have at it.

I have shoot a few LB rifles- I was very impressed,the most accurate AR I have ever shoot.

LB makes excellent SS barrels-wish they would make a chrome lined barrel.

Quoted: This is without a doubt one of those thread where the original poster has an opinion already, is only looking for validation of that opinion, and is going to cry when that opinion is contradicted (regardless of how factual or logical the contradiction is). Les Baer ARs are a waste of money if you're looking for a functioning tool.  The function they have that other ARs don't is getting to take it to the range and brag that you dropped $2k+ on the rifle.  If that is what you're looking for, have at it.

I was getting a little bit tired of people saying this before, but at this point it's just plain ridiculous.  Reading comprehension is an amazing thing, and with all due respect, I believe that if you had read the entirety of the proceedings, you would readily understand that despite my initial impressions, I have been rather convincingly disuaded from considering the aforementioned rifle.

I don't mean to sound like a b'jackass or anything, but seriously...  Did you not read this post of mine?

Alright, in brief summation (as requested by Scott)... It sounds as though the Thunder Ranch rifle isn't really the way to go. The sights, barrel, and trigger don't sound to be all they're cracked up to be. While I'm certain that the firearm is highly accurate and a joy to shoot, the input from most of the users has been fairly definitive: It's an awful lot of money for a rifle that probably won't do quite what I would like as well as I would like. I think I'll save my pennies for something else (like a decent flashlight mount for the existing rifle or a California-legal firearm to take the place of my Bushmaster while I'm in this state). Maybe if I trip over a pile of platinum next time I'm hiking or something I'll look more seriously at investing in a Les Baer, but I think my wants would be better suited by talking to the Bushmaster custom shop. Thanks, all.

The rapidity and adamantness that I "already had my mind made up" and would "cry" when dissenting opinion is falacious.  What is getting old is that even when I point-blank state that this is not the case, I am lambasted by fellows such as yourself that apparently know better than I do what I'm actually thinking about something.

I was initially drawn to the Thunder Ranch rifle because it appeared to combine most of the features I thought would be desirable without the need to send the bloody thing off to Joe Schmuckatelli Gunsmithing Inc.™  But in spite of the fact that two out of the three questions I asked were never addressed, I have been talked out of being interested in the rifle.


Rollyman:

I think that the majority of my posts have been in the Springfield Armory forum.  Back when the XD was just starting its popularity upswing, and discussed the weapon at length with people fairly regularly.  Since I owned one and many didn't, I answered many questions regarding the weapon and things of that nature.

That said, I've spent a reasonable amount of time in the AR15 forum, but mainly just reading and occasionally asking a question and moving on.  In the past, asking a simple question would get you a simple answer, you see.


Anyways, I've always known that a chrome-lined bore and barrel was more desirable "because it's more durable" or "it's more reliable", but I still don't think that if someone were to ask me why it's "more durable" I would be able to produce a real answer.  I'm assuming it's because hard chrome has greater lubricity than plain or stainless steel, you see.  But it's one of those things that one doesn't really ask--especially on this message board--for fear of being roundly laughed at and ridiculed without actually getting an answer.  That is neither here nor there though.

As for where I read my reviews, one was a publication from Guns & Ammo entitled, "The Book of the AR15", and the other was an issue of Guns magazine from a while back that I only just now got around to reading.  Interesting perspective on reading such things in magazines, though.  I wouldn't have looked at it that way.  I wonder exactly how much truth there is to it.

Anyways, thanks for the input, as usual.

Quoted: falacious

Are you allowed to use that word on a public internet forum.

Quoted: I was initially drawn to the Thunder Ranch rifle because it appeared to combine most of the features I thought would be desirable without the need to send the bloody thing off to Joe Schmuckatelli Gunsmithing Inc.™ But in spite of the fact that two out of the three questions I asked were never addressed, I have been talked out of being interested in the rifle.

Let's see - I have $2,000 to spend. I want a professional grade AR-15 assembled by a knowledgable expert. I want it to have features customized to my personal preferences. I don't want to touch a damn part on it, I want it to be ready to roll out of the box. Who could do such a thing, perhaps Denny's or MSTN? Les who were we talking about again?

The rapidity and adamantness that I "already had my mind made up" and would "cry" when dissenting opinion is falacious. What is getting old is that even when I point-blank state that this is not the case, I am lambasted by fellows such as yourself that apparently know better than I do what I'm actually thinking about something.

Rapidity, adamantness, falacious, lambasted! Seriously, you better loosen up that tie and get laid before you explode...

Quoted: Quoted: Their SVR rifles have been getting rave reviews lately, and the fit, finish, and overall appearance of these firearms is decidedly impressive, if the photographs are to be believed. Rave reveiws by who, some gun writer in a gun rag that doesn't know shit?

Oh they know shit.

They know that advertising by purveyors of said products brings in mucho dinero.
Hence all the full-color gun spam pages in your gun rags. If they paid your salary, wouldn't you say nice things too?

ETA Not saying Les Baer isn't good, just saying you can't trust gun rag reviews at all.

"Tulare Ace" is a gun shop in the central valley of CA (Tulare, CA) that is a CA assault weapons dealer.  an LEO friend of mine buys his stuff there.  or at least he did, i haven't been in CA for a little over a year now.  not sure if they will have what you are looking for, but you may want to give him a call and see.  don't  know how far that is from you, but it should be in the phone book.  

Quoted: As for where I read my reviews, one was a publication from Guns & Ammo entitled, "The Book of the AR15", and the other was an issue of Guns magazine from a while back that I only just now got around to reading.  Interesting perspective on reading such things in magazines, though.  I wouldn't have looked at it that way.  I wonder exactly how much truth there is to it. Anyways, thanks for the input, as usual.

You should know better than to look to those two items as trustworthy if you've been here as long as you have.

I don't think anyone ever answered his question about barrel twist.

1/8 will stabilize any bullet you could fire through an AR15 up to 80 grains.  Guaranteed.

Quoted: Thanks.  My big concern is that since I've no tools for assembling anything more complex than a buttstock (and by 'assembling', I mean 'screwing into the back of the receiver'), I wouldn't be able to properly put together something correctly.

Tools are easy to get and you don't need very many of them. Some drift punches, a hammer, an armorers wrench, receiver block, and some headspace gauges, off the top of my head. They'll pay for themselves through all the gunsmithing work for which you won't have to pay because you can do it yourself.

Quoted: All of the people in the professional firearms training ciruit that I've seen online have warned against non-factory rifles,

The parts you can buy are the exact same parts that go into factory rifles. Look at at Bushy or RRA parts catalog for example: all those parts are what Bushy and RRA use to built their factory rifles. The difference is that with factory rifles the building work has already been done for you.

Sure, there might be a little bit something to the notion that it is not a good idea to mix and match parts from different manufacturers, because, this not being a perfect world, different parts from different manufacturers are not always 100% compatible, but enough people have built rifles with a barrel from Brand X, an upper from Brand Y, and a lower from Brand Z, and put thousands of rounds through them without any problems.

You're only really going to run into problems with Frankenguns if you cut corners and put cheap crap into them. Buy quality parts and your rifle should be as reliabile as a factory rifle, and probably more reliable than a fancy Les Baer.

Quoted: I don't think anyone ever answered his question about barrel twist. 1/8 will stabilize any bullet you could fire through an AR15 up to 80 grains.  Guaranteed.

1/8 is my favorite AR twist rate. Works great with 55gr and even a bit lighter and also with up to 80gr like SWO said.

Quoted: Quoted: falacious Are you allowed to use that word on a public internet forum.

Hey, I may have been in the military, but it was as a college boy with more words in my vocabulary than points in my PFT score.  And yes, using arcane terminology did get me into some interesting situations during my fantastically short stint.  There was this one time I used 'nebulous' and a fellow officer candidate (and former lance corporal) literally burst into laughter while pointing at me...  In the middle of a class on maritime affairs...


Good times.

As for if big words are allowed on ARFCOM...  Jeez, I don't know.  It was okay on a radically different board, but we were prone to often weeks-long and, in hindsight, disturbingly long barely-civil debates about stuff.  Logical debate terminology was flying back and forth with wild abandon.  I think this one guy got hit in the head with an errant argumentum ad nausium and had to go to the hospital for a couple of days...


EDIT:

By the way, thanks for all the pointers, guys.  Despite having lurked and posted here for so long, I've only ever owned the one rifle, and all of the customization stuff that results in such awesome-looking firearms in the pictures thread is totally Greek to me.  As an aside, I did some communing with the good folks at Bushmaster, and found that I could put together a very similar rifle for something like half the price of the Thunder Ranch rifle, and the factory would assemble it all to spec.  Very stand-up folks at BFI--almost as impressive as my experiences with the genuinely amazing customer care I've received from Springfield Armory in the past.

What's even cooler is that I could actually do a similar setup but with the full-sized government-profile rifle barrel for about the same price, which is decidedly cool.  I much prefer the longer sight radius--it's substantially easier to use, in my opinion, even though until you actually sit down and look at both the carbine and rifle sighting planes, the exact differences aren't immediately apparent.

Brett,
It's good to see you're actually taking some of the advice here.  The LB rifles, while pretty, seem to end there.  I would be inclined to take Steve up on his offer.  His rifles make it through Pat Rogers classes, and get sent to guys in the sandbox (look at his forum in the industry section and check out his customers).  I'm not so sure about LB.  For the money you're considering dropping, Steve (or Denny, or Grant, or JTAC, or Wes) can build you a rifle that will do everything the LB can and more.

FWIW,
in regards to the Jewel trigger, if you're the kind of person that does NOT like to "dick around" with his equipment, don NOT get the Jewel.  When they work, they're great, but they are high maintenance.  Put it this way, if it can go "T.U." in a hi power match, what do you think the chances are of it going "TU" in a "class"?  The RRA triggers are great.


Rich

Hunt around, get the best quality parts, call Adco, put parts in box and ship to Adco. You will have a better rifle, for less money.