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Now where's my popcorn?

Dave_Hineline- you weren't saying that when you opened your mouth the first time.  "If you are worried about ballistic performance, then you should choose something bigger than a poodle shooter." is exactly what you said.  You were inferring that he's asking a stupid question and deserves a stupid answer.  He has a valid question and there are REAL answers to that question.  

The easy thing to do with an AR15 to increase terminal ballistics is NOT upsize the caliber.  From what I know, it's fairly difficult to fire a larger caliber through an AR15.  So, we've got barrel length and ammo choice to influence terminal ballistics.  Your NEW suggestion of getting a larger rifles is bullshit.

Quoted: Just as an FYI, there is NO MAGIC BULLET. I can shoot you dead with a .22 just as I can with a 308. It is 100% about shot placement. C4

Actually, this is far from true... the lethality of a bullet wound depends on shot placement naturally, but lethal means that the person will die from the principle mechanics of the wound... this could take minutes, hours, days.

The effect that we look for to bring closure to a situation is the ZeroKill or rapid incapacitation shot, this is achived through destruction of the brain stem or a sizeable percentage of the brain itself; through a KO round, that just phyically knocks the person out (but may not be permanent); ot the phenomenon of "mind set survival".

I wrote an article on this about 10 years ago, and had quite a few cases to study, but the impetus was the first fatal shooting that I was ever really close to, and then seeing this same thing happen a few more times in my life...

Often people will drop in their tracks from a wound that should not be fatal, while others will defy all all logic and ramain not only alive but alert after a GSW that should have shut them off like a light. Many people that I talked to (with lots of letters after their name) credit this to quite simply what a person believes will happen to them when they are shot, and the individual will to survive.

So, to be sure that if you have to get ZK response, then it is ALL about shot placement and choice of a round that will exact the predicited damage... but for most cases, unless you are plugging the MO, never be so sure about anything (I still look at the legs!).

Quoted: Actually my opinion is pretty accurate. Shot's fired to the 2" slot in your head should turn the lights out.  There are always variables and no one should ever just ASSUME anything. If you would like to test this experimate out, I will shoot you in the head with 5.56 and you shoot me in the belly with a 308. C4

...this is not grade school or some wannabe "carbine class" Grant, you can not base your information on the fact that head shots score three times more damage in Halflife2.

I ain't coming down there, save your bait

Quoted: Actually, this is far from true... the lethality of a bullet wound depends on shot placement naturally

These two points are contradicting one another.

Probabilities of lethality drop when the shots are placed in extremities, non-vital superficial torso shots, etc.

This has got nothing to do with a carbine class.

My several years of hunting game animals, combined with reading quite a bit on the subject of killing say that shot placement is one of the most vital aspects of shooting AND KILLING something -- human OR game animal.

The probability of death or immediate incapacitation relies on the placement of the shot.

100% of the equation?  Probably not.  It does garner the lion's share though....

JosephR,

Keep it up, your making my day.   I have not laughed so hard in a long time and it feels good.

Actually my opinion is pretty accurate. Shot's fired to the 2" slot in your head should turn the lights out. There are always variables and no one should ever just ASSUME anything. If you would like to test this experimate out, I will shoot you in the head with 5.56 and you shoot me in the belly with a 308. C4

Hey C4 if you don't make it after being shot can I have your business.

To...SD...I did not realize that was you. When I first saw that I said what a cold MF. Shooting people and talking in a normal conversation like people were not falling out there. I liked your attitude and wanted to say Thanks to the guy in the Vid....

So now I know who it is I say THANK YOU for getting some A-Holes who took out some of my close friends on 911.....I hope you are doing ok and wish I was there with you or could go with you next time.

SD - I get the impression that author you're quoting is trying to say that FPS of a bullet 5 yards into flight from an 11 1/2" barrel is the same as FPS of the same bullet 150 yards into flight when fired from a 20"?

If so, I agree it would be very interesting to see a ballistic chart and FPS for a round fired from such a short barrel. I'm sure someone's got such a thing, somewhere.

Quoted: Actually my opinion is pretty accurate. Shot's fired to the 2" slot in your head should turn the lights out. There are always variables and no one should ever just ASSUME anything. If you would like to test this experimate out, I will shoot you in the head with 5.56 and you shoot me in the belly with a 308. C4 Hey C4 if you don't make it after being shot can I have your business. To...SD...I did not realize that was you. When I first saw that I said what a cold MF. Shooting people and talking in a normal conversation like people were not falling out there. I liked your attitude and wanted to say Thanks to the guy in the Vid.... So now I know who it is I say THANK YOU for getting some A-Holes who took out some of my close friends on 911.....I hope you are doing ok and wish I was there with you or could go with you next time.

Off topic.

He was in Najaf, Iraq, not Afghanistan fighting the Taliban who sponsored Bin Laden's boys responsible for 911.  But that's ok, you are confused just like Cheney, et al. would like you to be.

Quoted: Accuracy beats firepower everytime.

Accuracy with larger bullets = even better.

Quoted: quote from a article about barrel lengths and ammo verses velocity... 11.5 inch barrel at 5 yards can end up with no more terminal effectiveness than a 20in barrel would have at 150 yards. 1: So im curious now to what the velocity of a 55grain FMJ bullet would be at 300yards out of a   10.5 in barrrel...anyone heard or tested? 2:  So if this is true, would a 14.5 in barrel be a more all around effective barrel length even in a CQC enviornment?

Try this Sir; Open Load - NT Innovations . That is a fully customizable web based load program. You can change all aspects of the load data, the rifle, barrel length and twist, sight height etc etc etc. Oh, and fully customizable POI data, with graphs, from 1 foot to infinity. There is also some preset 5.56mm NATO data too, like the M855 and mk262. And last but not least, you can register for free, and then save the profiles you like and or create.

Hope that helps!

Cyclic

*edit =>>* By the way, that is Java based and likes Internet Explorer a lot better. Firefox will not let the mouse click the colum headers to "sort"....

Quoted: He was in Najaf, Iraq, not Afghanistan fighting the Taliban who sponsored Bin Laden's boys responsible for 911.  But that's ok, you are confused just like Cheney, et al. would like you to be.

WOW, thanks for the education

But that's ok, you are confused just like Cheney, et al. would like you to be.

Go over to the general discussion.

Quoted: Quoted: He was in Najaf, Iraq, not Afghanistan fighting the Taliban who sponsored Bin Laden's boys responsible for 911.  But that's ok, you are confused just like Cheney, et al. would like you to be. WOW, thanks for the educationhinking.gif

yea, it's common knowledge, just commenting on the poster's stretched sense of vengeance.

Quoted: yea, it's common knowledge, just commenting on the poster's stretched sense of vengeance.

Lots of plausible ties to AQ.

Quoted: Quoted: yea, it's common knowledge, just commenting on the poster's stretched sense of vengeance. Lots of plausible ties to AQ.

Of course there are ties NOW, but I've got to agree with James' statement - though I would have put it more politely perhaps.

Quoted: JosephR, Keep it up, your making my day.   I have not laughed so hard in a long time and it feels good.

eh?  I don't understand if you are being a dick or making a compliment.  

Quoted: Quoted: Actually, this is far from true... the lethality of a bullet wound depends on shot placement naturally These two points are contradicting one another. Probabilities of lethality drop when the shots are placed in extremities, non-vital superficial torso shots, etc. This has got nothing to do with a carbine class. My several years of hunting game animals, combined with reading quite a bit on the subject of killing say that shot placement is one of the most vital aspects of shooting AND KILLING something -- human OR game animal. The probability of death or immediate incapacitation relies on the placement of the shot. 100% of the equation?  Probably not.  It does garner the lion's share though....

Please allow me to explain... I had took Grant's statement:

Just as an FYI, there is NO MAGIC BULLET. I can shoot you dead with a .22 just as I can with a 308. It is 100% about shot placement.

to read that there was no difference between a .22 and a .308, that the lethality of any shot was 100% dependant on shot placement -- I talked to Grant today about this and understand this is not what he meant to say... he was saying that either of the two can do the job, if the shooter does his part. Naturally, the .308 allows for more error on the shooters part...

Trust me, I am the first to jump on the "accuracy" is important train... but there are a few things that the shooter can control that are important: shot placement and terminal ballistics being the two biggest. I still argue however that completely out the shooters hands is the individual reaction of the target... and you never, ever know what that is going to be. The effect of the shot is a combination of many things, no one thing is 100% of it.

The reason I took such exception to this is that for the last few days we have spent a great deal of time talking about the amount of bad information that we are seeing in the field. I have asked kids going through my training where they learned some bonehead thing and they say "I read it on the internet" -- well, maybe a few of their frineds might want to hit the internet and look up how to fold a flag too... There are hundreds of tactical schools and consulting firms that sprung up overnight, every time three or more cops get together they start a consulting firm... but we see this.

Sadly, there are thousands and thousands of *experts* on the internet that jump on and give their self formulated opinion, pass on bad info or just flat out make shit up... but in the case of some of the guys that use this stuff, we are talking peoples lives. There are dozens of good sites that require you are invited and are bonafide, but even at that, unless you are on the secret internet, you have no clue about that person at all...

So, I guess I am was just filled up with internet wisdom at this point... not to impune Grant, he is a sharp guy and knows that equipment well, but as we talked today, on the two-way range shit's different, your performance can drop pretty fast... and the critics are really rough there.

I am a Doom3 junky (I just started playing PC games, it rocks!) and I know exactly how many of what type of hit it takes to bring down whatever monster is digitized in front of me... I also know that there is no such formula in real life...

oh, btw Grant, you would be surprised at how many people do not realize they have been shot, untill they see the blood... or, those that swear they are shot, but cant find a hole.

.

Quoted: So, I guess I am was just filled up with internet wisdom at this point... not to impune Grant, he is a sharp guy and knows that equipment well, but as we talked today, on the two-way range shit's different, your performance can drop pretty fast... and the critics are really rough there.

It's a shame some folks don't go and do the training to LEARN what they need to know FIRSTHAND, but that's the way it is -- right?

I hope I NEVER have to pull my gun in anger, ever.  However, I feel that I can't help but get more and more and more training from the TOP minds in the gun business.

I'm nearly as obsessed with the next class as I am with the next machine gun to buy...

I just train so that my natural reactions will be good, solid, decisive and accurate shots under pressure.

All we can do is train for the worst and hope for the best.

Least that's where MY head is...

damn!  I go away for a day and missed all the fun!  



thanks for the support and info guys!