Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
BCM
User Panel

Page AR-15 » AR Pistols
AR Sponsor: bravocompany
Site Notices
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 25
Posted: 1/13/2023 6:55:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Cincinnatus]
ATF Bans Braced Pistols & Turns Millions Of Americans Into Felons
Link Posted: 1/13/2023 7:00:44 PM EDT
[#1]
Don't care.
Link Posted: 1/13/2023 7:02:53 PM EDT
[#2]
Link Posted: 1/13/2023 7:18:44 PM EDT
[#3]
Ost
Link Posted: 1/13/2023 8:07:42 PM EDT
[#4]
There will be a tax free amnesty period............120 days...........
Link Posted: 1/13/2023 8:10:47 PM EDT
[#5]
Does this include pistols like the EP9? I haven't checked yet. I thought the EPA decision specifically stated that unelected agencies like the ATF can't make law. What am I missing here?
Link Posted: 1/13/2023 8:22:45 PM EDT
[#6]
I should have bought even more.

Link Posted: 1/13/2023 8:30:08 PM EDT
[#7]
They should waive the finger print thing. Imagine joe blow trying to submit a form 4 on his own. lol.
Link Posted: 1/13/2023 8:31:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: aeroworksxp] [#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TheLASwamp:
Does this include pistols like the EP9? I haven't checked yet. I thought the EPA decision specifically stated that unelected agencies like the ATF can't make law. What am I missing here?
View Quote

They just fake pretend that they are simply enforcing the existing law. And it was you all along that is the criminal.  
Link Posted: 1/13/2023 8:34:47 PM EDT
[#9]
SAF Response:

SAF RIPS ATF 'FINAL RULE' ON ARM BRACES, LAWSUIT WILL MOVE FORWARD

The Second Amendment Foundation today accused the Biden administration of "once again trying to trample the rights of gun owners" by allowing the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives to adopt a "final rule" on arm braces for modern semiautomatic pistols.

While the definition of a rifle in federal law should be clear, noted attorney Chad Flores, who is representing SAF in a federal lawsuit filed two years ago that was stayed by the court in anticipation of this new rule, it is clear the Biden administration's new definition of a rifle ignores tradition. SAF sued ATF and the U.S. Attorney General in 2021 in a case known as SAF et. al. v. BATFE, et. al.

SAF is joined in that case by Rainier Arms, LLC and two private citizens, Samuel Walley and William Green. The lawsuit was filed in U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Texas, Dallas Division.

According to Flores' analysis of the 291-page Final Rule, the definition of a "rifle" now turns on a bewildering six-factor test. This new definition can be controlled not by the firearm's objective characteristics, but instead by what ATF agents in D.C. think of a manufacturer's marketing materials or the firearm's "likely use."  The new rule itself is forced to admit its dramatic result: Under this new definitional regime, "a majority of the existing firearms equipped with a 'stabilizing brace' are likely to be classified as 'rifles.'"

"The Biden administration's new rifle definition overrides the true wish of Congress, to upend the reasonable expectations of stabilizing brace users and makers nationwide," Flores said.

SAF founder and Executive Vice President Alan M. Gottlieb noted the foundation's 2021 lawsuit raised critical points about what has now been adopted by ATF.

"When we started this process," Gottlieb said, "we anticipated where the agency's efforts would lead. With our co-plaintiffs, we will continue to challenge this new arm brace rule."



Link Posted: 1/13/2023 8:53:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: s4s4u] [#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By catcatcher1:
There will be a tax free amnesty period............120 days...........
View Quote


They can pound sand......

This is just a backdoor registration scheme.
Link Posted: 1/13/2023 9:07:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: catcatcher1] [#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By s4s4u:


They can pound sand......

This is just a backdoor registration scheme.
View Quote

call it what you want.........in 1968 the Feds did a tax free amnesty on machine guns..........no questions asked.............they bring a pretty penny today..............
Link Posted: 1/13/2023 9:29:53 PM EDT
[#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By catcatcher1:

call it what you want.........in 1968 the Feds did a tax free amnesty on machine guns..........no questions asked.............they bring a pretty penny today..............
View Quote


And they KNOW WHERE EVERY ONE OF THEM IS

You don't get it yet????
Link Posted: 1/13/2023 9:38:32 PM EDT
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By catcatcher1:

call it what you want.........in 1968 the Feds did a tax free amnesty on machine guns..........no questions asked.............they bring a pretty penny today..............
View Quote



Can you buy a few hundred stripped lowers to register?
Link Posted: 1/13/2023 9:57:50 PM EDT
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By s4s4u:


And they KNOW WHERE EVERY ONE OF THEM IS

You don't get it yet????
View Quote

who cares...........its still will be legally mine
Link Posted: 1/13/2023 9:59:27 PM EDT
[#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By First-World-Problems:



Can you buy a few hundred stripped lowers to register?
View Quote

I don't see why not..........check with the Feds for further clarification
Link Posted: 1/13/2023 9:59:50 PM EDT
[#16]
Link Posted: 1/13/2023 10:02:04 PM EDT
[#17]
Its form 1
Link Posted: 1/13/2023 10:06:54 PM EDT
[#18]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By catcatcher1:

who cares...........its still will be legally mine
View Quote


That’s true, but as far as value, that’s a much bigger gamble than full auto. Short barrel rifles would be considered by some as a novelty. No where near as useful or desirable as full auto machine guns.

And the fact that they would have to completely close off the sale and registration of sbr’s. that’s highly unlikely given the fact that it’s basically just a neutered rifle in the 5.56 round.
Link Posted: 1/13/2023 10:15:18 PM EDT
[#19]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By s4s4u:


And they KNOW WHERE EVERY ONE OF THEM IS

You don't get it yet????
View Quote


Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 1/13/2023 10:28:13 PM EDT
[#20]
I'll have to have this ready to play in my stereo, at all times!



Link Posted: 1/13/2023 10:40:03 PM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By s4s4u:


They can pound sand......

This is just a backdoor registration scheme.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By s4s4u:
Originally Posted By catcatcher1:
There will be a tax free amnesty period............120 days...........


They can pound sand......

This is just a backdoor registration scheme.

Good news for all you guys submitting form 1s, the wait won’t be nearly as long and backlogged as you think. Most guys won’t even bother.
Link Posted: 1/13/2023 10:55:53 PM EDT
[#22]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By catcatcher1:
There will be a tax free amnesty period............120 days...........
View Quote



I don’t have any braces, but I’m sure as shit gonna SBR everything I’ve been waiting to SBR if the amnesty period is a thing.
Link Posted: 1/13/2023 10:57:13 PM EDT
[#23]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By hellishhorses:

Good news for all you guys submitting form 1s, the wait won’t be nearly as long and backlogged as you think. Most guys won’t even bother.
View Quote


There are a whole bunch of folks that are already on the dreaded List so I imagine since it is 0 cost other than finger prints (get an EFT file and be done with it) that quite a few of 'em will be registering one or more.  I know the two NFA owners I've talked to today have already said they are.

Link Posted: 1/13/2023 10:59:25 PM EDT
[#24]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By cms81586:



I don't have any braces, but I'm sure as shit gonna SBR everything I've been waiting to SBR if the amnesty period is a thing.
View Quote
The amnesty is for pistols with braces attached that you possess before the rule is published.

I suggest reading the following info

https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/docs/undefined/faqfinalrule2021r-08f-correctedpdf/download

And the full 291 page rule change

https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/docs/undefined/factoringcriteriaforfirearmswithattachedstabilizingbracespdf/download
Link Posted: 1/13/2023 11:04:55 PM EDT
[#25]
Sadly, and it's something that was said for years:

ATF was simply wrong in the way back when they approved pistol braces.

A pistol with a brace was always an SBR or AOW by the definitions in the NFA.  Especially a pistol which is made from a rifle design.

We didn't really object because it worked in our favor for a change, but...

Things working in our favor never stand for long, and here we are today.
Link Posted: 1/14/2023 12:23:12 AM EDT
[#26]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By chumpmiester:
The amnesty is for pistols with braces attached that you possess before the rule is published.

I suggest reading the following info

https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/docs/undefined/faqfinalrule2021r-08f-correctedpdf/download

And the full 291 page rule change

https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/docs/undefined/factoringcriteriaforfirearmswithattachedstabilizingbracespdf/download
View Quote


The only part I'm seeing where previous ownership proof is needed is for a Trust in that FAQ section:
12. CAN I REGISTER MY FIREARM WITH A “STABILIZING BRACE” TO MY TRUST?
• Yes, however, the firearm would have needed to be owned by the trust prior to the date the
final rule is published in the Federal Register. Evidence that the firearms was in trust should be
provided with the registration document.

Is there anywhere else in the full document that says otherwise for an individual? Or is there something else I'm overlooking?
Link Posted: 1/14/2023 12:28:50 AM EDT
[#27]
Glad i owned 2 of them before the ruling both same psa 10.5 upper and sb4 brace.

gonna sbr them and good thing i got pics with dates posted before to prove so.LOL
Link Posted: 1/14/2023 12:31:00 AM EDT
[#28]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TheRat:


The only part I'm seeing where previous ownership proof is needed is for a Trust in that FAQ section:
12. CAN I REGISTER MY FIREARM WITH A "STABILIZING BRACE" TO MY TRUST?
 Yes, however, the firearm would have needed to be owned by the trust prior to the date the
final rule is published in the Federal Register. Evidence that the firearms was in trust should be
provided with the registration document.

Is there anywhere else in the full document that says otherwise for an individual? Or is there something else I'm overlooking?
View Quote
Did you read all 291 pages of the rule change? It is buried in there.
Link Posted: 1/14/2023 12:36:11 AM EDT
[#29]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By chumpmiester:
Did you read all 291 pages of the rule change? It is buried in there.
View Quote


I haven't found it yet, still making my way through the text. Which page is it on, for reference?
Link Posted: 1/14/2023 12:41:50 AM EDT
[#30]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TheRat:


I haven't found it yet, still making my way through the text. Which page is it on, for reference?
View Quote
I don't remember what page I found it on.
Link Posted: 1/14/2023 1:35:58 AM EDT
[#31]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By chumpmiester:
The amnesty is for pistols with braces attached that you possess before the rule is published.

I suggest reading the following info

https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/docs/undefined/faqfinalrule2021r-08f-correctedpdf/download

And the full 291 page rule change

https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/docs/undefined/factoringcriteriaforfirearmswithattachedstabilizingbracespdf/download
View Quote


What they don’t know won’t hurt them.
Link Posted: 1/14/2023 1:40:34 AM EDT
[#32]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By chumpmiester:
The amnesty is for pistols with braces attached that you possess before the rule is published.

I suggest reading the following info

https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/docs/undefined/faqfinalrule2021r-08f-correctedpdf/download

And the full 291 page rule change

https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/docs/undefined/factoringcriteriaforfirearmswithattachedstabilizingbracespdf/download
View Quote


This brings up a good point.  Their rule makes it sound like even a pistol buffer tube will be considered an SBR going forward, but amnesty is only for braces?

Are we sure that’s how it’s gonna work?
Link Posted: 1/14/2023 2:35:24 AM EDT
[#33]
They are going to be sued in every circuit and lose in most of them causing the supreme court to kick them in the nuts again. They will lose this on multiple angles. We might even get lucky and the NFA will get tossed too.
Link Posted: 1/14/2023 3:12:51 AM EDT
[#34]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BhamAR:


This brings up a good point.  Their rule makes it sound like even a pistol buffer tube will be considered an SBR going forward, but amnesty is only for braces?

Are we sure that’s how it’s gonna work?
View Quote


Actually there are braces that will pass the worksheet.  But, it is their little disclaimer that they can rule a qualifying gun an SBR if the feel like it that muddies the water.  That is also what is going to get it tossed when the first judge with a right mind views the cases coming before them.
Link Posted: 1/14/2023 9:23:44 AM EDT
[#35]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By s4s4u:


Actually there are braces that will pass the worksheet.  But, it is their little disclaimer that they can rule a qualifying gun an SBR if the feel like it that muddies the water.  That is also what is going to get it tossed when the first judge with a right mind views the cases coming before them.
View Quote

Ummm, somebody wanna tell him?
Link Posted: 1/14/2023 10:02:04 AM EDT
[#36]
Fuck the ATF and there made up shit. How many years has it been legally sold and boom change their mind.
Unconstitutional,  disregard their B/S
Link Posted: 1/14/2023 10:35:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: wanderson] [#37]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By s4s4u:


Actually there are braces that will pass the worksheet.  But, it is their little disclaimer that they can rule a qualifying gun an SBR if the feel like it that muddies the water.  That is also what is going to get it tossed when the first judge with a right mind views the cases coming before them.
View Quote



I haven't read all 290 something pages, but someone posted that there is no worksheet. So this applies to ALL braces, period.

And someone also posted that this new ruling declared AR pistols with bare buffer tubes as NFA/SBR because they're 'shoulderable'.

OK, they can argue all they want that they 'misclassified' braces, but bare tube pistols have been legal as long as they've existed.

And if they admit they made a mistake, then they admit they're not qualified to regulate anything.

edit: I was wrong on bare buffer tubes, if required for function as on an AR pistol they're allowed but cannot be modified 'for shouldering'. Someonequoted that part of the new rulingin the General discussion thread. So assuming that if you have an SB brace on an empty buffer tube mounted to something like a Scorpion Evo you not only have to remove the brace, but the empty buffer tube as well.


Link Posted: 1/14/2023 10:50:04 AM EDT
[#38]
A bare short/pistol buffer tube on an AR pistol is still legal with the new rule change. In fact removing the brace IS one option on how to make your braced pistol compliant.

Attachment Attached File


https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/docs/undefined/faqfinalrule2021r-08f-correctedpdf/download
Link Posted: 1/14/2023 10:55:45 AM EDT
[#39]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By s4s4u:


Actually there are braces that will pass the worksheet.  But, it is their little disclaimer that they can rule a qualifying gun an SBR if the feel like it that muddies the water.  That is also what is going to get it tossed when the first judge with a right mind views the cases coming before them.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By s4s4u:
Originally Posted By BhamAR:


This brings up a good point.  Their rule makes it sound like even a pistol buffer tube will be considered an SBR going forward, but amnesty is only for braces?

Are we sure that’s how it’s gonna work?


Actually there are braces that will pass the worksheet.  But, it is their little disclaimer that they can rule a qualifying gun an SBR if the feel like it that muddies the water.  That is also what is going to get it tossed when the first judge with a right mind views the cases coming before them.


They kicked the “worksheet” (even though they referenced it a few times) and basically said “99.9% of braces are stocks.”  With the worksheet there were workarounds and an objective, relatively clear set of criteria that would leave the door open for clever manufacturers to design something that met all criteria but still functionally did the same thing as existing braces.

The new criteria is “does it have a flat surface on the rear that can be rested against your shoulder?”  By what’s written, even an AR pistol without any brace installed (just a bare pistol tube) is now viewed as an SBR.
Link Posted: 1/14/2023 10:58:01 AM EDT
[#40]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By chumpmiester:
A bare short/pistol buffer tube on an AR pistol is still legal with the new rule change. In fact removing the brace IS one option on how to make your braced pistol compliant.

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/101824/Screen_Shot_2023-01-14_at_8_47_00_AM_png-2671619.JPG

https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/docs/undefined/faqfinalrule2021r-08f-correctedpdf/download
View Quote


They’re saying that, but what they wrote in the rest of the document could very easily be applied to a bare pistol receiver extension.

If there’s a window for abuse to occur, someone with the authority to do so will use it to try and make an example out of someone.
Link Posted: 1/14/2023 11:21:01 AM EDT
[#41]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By WUPHF:


They're saying that, but what they wrote in the rest of the document could very easily be applied to a bare pistol receiver extension.

If there's a window for abuse to occur, someone with the authority to do so will use it to try and make an example out of someone.
View Quote

There has been a window for abuse since the ATF first proposed a rule change on braces back in 2020. Not to mention all of the flip flopping they did on determination letters.

I am in no way telling people what or what not to do with my posts here. I am only trying to help clarify things as best we can.
Link Posted: 1/14/2023 11:56:45 AM EDT
[#42]
So we just put a stock on it and go about our business? Curious what the future brings.
Link Posted: 1/14/2023 12:15:22 PM EDT
[#43]
dont use a brace on your ar pistol. i remember the olden days when we did it this way on here.

Link Posted: 1/14/2023 12:29:47 PM EDT
[#44]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By pc-ops:
dont use a brace on your ar pistol. i remember the olden days when we did it this way on here.

View Quote



Many of us had little to interest in AR pistols then either.
Link Posted: 1/14/2023 12:52:03 PM EDT
[#45]
not true, there where lots.
Link Posted: 1/14/2023 12:53:18 PM EDT
[#46]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By WUPHF:


They kicked the “worksheet” (even though they referenced it a few times) and basically said “99.9% of braces are stocks.”  With the worksheet there were workarounds and an objective, relatively clear set of criteria that would leave the door open for clever manufacturers to design something that met all criteria but still functionally did the same thing as existing braces.

The new criteria is “does it have a flat surface on the rear that can be rested against your shoulder?”  By what’s written, even an AR pistol without any brace installed (just a bare pistol tube) is now viewed as an SBR.
View Quote


Well ain't that a bitch?!?  I guess I will wait and watch for the lawsuits and subsequent spank down.
Link Posted: 1/14/2023 12:56:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: j3_] [#47]
Brace rules.
Link Posted: 1/14/2023 12:59:23 PM EDT
[#48]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By j3_:

This one maybe for after the knock.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l12iPj-TQrM
View Quote


Almost certainly since I'd rather die free than become enslaved to the JBT's.  Sad thing is so many on this site would see a news clip about some guy getting killed by the ATF & who knows whatever story they tell the press & call him all kinds of things.  It's OK to be a coward, maybe just stop belittling those who are willing to fight for all our rights.
Link Posted: 1/14/2023 2:25:08 PM EDT
[#49]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By s4s4u:


They can pound sand......

This is just a backdoor registration scheme.
View Quote


They stated in the ruling they consider guns sold with braces as illegally transferred. There is no guarantee they will approve any eForn 1 submissions. Last years presumptive guilt/presumptive use of illegal parts denial of Form 1 suppressors indicates their mindset and capability. They have not been regulating in good faith.
Link Posted: 1/14/2023 2:48:01 PM EDT
[#50]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By cms81586:



I don’t have any braces, but I’m sure as shit gonna SBR everything I’ve been waiting to SBR if the amnesty period is a thing.
View Quote

That'll come in handy when they pass the assault weapons ban, they'll know right where to find em.
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 25
Page AR-15 » AR Pistols
AR Sponsor: bravocompany
Close Join Our Mail List to Stay Up To Date! Win a FREE Membership!

Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!

You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.


By signing up you agree to our User Agreement. *Must have a registered ARFCOM account to win.
Top Top