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MA, USA
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Posted: 12/29/2023 9:53:03 AM EDT
For a home defense/duty rifle, is an AGB a bad idea? The instagram bros say they’re essential but everyone who actually uses their rifle hard says to stay away from them. Im planning a 11.5” carbine length build and want to keep recoil to a minimum for faster follow ups, so I want to use a standard buffer instead of the recommended H2.. but then I’ll very likely be too overgassed considering most barrels are a little overgassed to begin with. Does anyone know if a tube from Black River Tactical is durable/reliable enough for use in an “OH SHIT” setup? |
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SC, USA
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Posted: 12/29/2023 10:02:00 AM EDT
[#1]
Personally I wouldn't try to modify a "duty rifle" to the ragged edge of performance in this way. I'd stick to well proven and tested configurations.... Ymmv, but I would go none of the above for this application.
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Posted: 12/29/2023 10:04:38 AM EDT
[#2]
Concur with first post.
No need to tune/tweak any correctly spec’ed/built weapon, especially a “duty” weapon. |
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MA, USA
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Posted: 12/29/2023 10:12:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Nicky9283]
[#3]
Originally Posted By KILLERB6: Concur with first post. No need to tune/tweak any correctly spec’ed/built weapon, especially a “duty” weapon. How does one know if their setup is correctly spec’d/tuned? I’ve read endless articles showing even top tier barrels from Noveske and Daniel having oversized gas ports. From my understanding, purposely over gassing is to prevent callbacks about a “malfunctioning rifle” when the customer uses inadequate or low quality ammunition. |
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Posted: 12/29/2023 10:47:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: WUPHF]
[#4]
I’ll second the “don’t tune your defensive rifle to the ragged edge of function” advice. I’ve also used enough AGBs to know I wouldn’t want one on a serious use gun., at least not a standard spring and detent set screw one.
I’ve got a BRT tube in one of my 10.5” guns that has a fairly large gas port (.080) that was pretty overgassed suppressed. I spec’d a tube that would get me down in the range of the Crane .070 spec for carbine gas barrels of that length. Still have an H2 in it and I verified function both suppressed and unsuppressed before I trusted it, but the BRT tube works as advertised. There’s also the benefit that as it wears it’ll be adding more gas to the system, thereby not potentially decreasing reliability. |
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SC, USA
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Posted: 12/29/2023 10:51:08 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Nicky9283: How does one know if their setup is correctly spec’d/tuned? I’ve read endless articles showing even top tier barrels from Noveske and Daniel having oversized gas ports. From my understanding, purposely over gassing is to prevent callbacks about a “malfunctioning rifle” when the customer uses inadequate or low quality ammunition. It is also said to allow it to run in very dirty/adverse conditions. For a "duty rifle", I would buy a complete rifle, or complete upper from a company known for building such (any of the well known usual suspects)... if complete upper, I would start with a lower identical to the factory spec and then test with full power 5.56 ammo. If it's ejecting forward, bump up one step in buffer weight and try again, repeat until it is ejecting at 3-4:00. Done. This should give you a good wide range of function and you should still run with weak ammo, hot ammo, with/without can, clean, dirty, etc. I do find the 11.5 to be a bit more forgiving overall than the 10.3. I'd just be worried about constricting down the gas too far chasing a tiny shooting performance gain, on a rifle that already has a short dwell time... just seems like you're asking for problems as soon as any variation in ammo comes along. |
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Posted: 12/29/2023 10:51:40 AM EDT
[#6]
Do you want your weapon to function with a wide range of ammo, or do you want to tweak it to run on ammo “this good” (whatever that is) or better?
Do you already have a stockpile of 20k+ of said ammo? Do you know what you will be able to find in the future? Manufactures gas their guns to function reliably with a wide range of ammo under a wide range of conditions…if that isn’t what you are shooting (  ) for, then the tune/tweak route is the alternative.
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Posted: 12/29/2023 3:31:52 PM EDT
[#7]
BRT tubes are solid, provided the correct one is chosen.
What is your current GP diameter? How does it shoot currently? Guessing rarely ends well. |
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Posted: 12/29/2023 6:01:36 PM EDT
[#8]
TGELDR reinforces my point to a degree: you’re guessing at one dimension (gas port dia.) vs. another (which BRT).
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Posted: 12/29/2023 6:03:08 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TGWLDR: BRT tubes are solid, provided the correct one is chosen. What is your current GP diameter? How does it shoot currently? We’re talking about tweaking a gun that hasn’t been built yet. Guessing rarely ends well. |
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Posted: 12/29/2023 6:25:05 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By KILLERB6: Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By KILLERB6: Originally Posted By TGWLDR: BRT tubes are solid, provided the correct one is chosen. What is your current GP diameter? How does it shoot currently? We’re talking about tweaking a gun that hasn’t been built yet. Guessing rarely ends well. Yeah, that’s not the best way to go about it. OP, if you don’t have the barrel yet, just buy a barrel that doesn’t come with a hogged out gas port. |
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Posted: 12/29/2023 7:23:30 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WUPHF: Yeah, that’s not the best way to go about it. OP, if you don’t have the barrel yet, just buy a barrel that doesn’t come with a hogged out gas port. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WUPHF: Originally Posted By KILLERB6: Originally Posted By TGWLDR: BRT tubes are solid, provided the correct one is chosen. What is your current GP diameter? How does it shoot currently? We’re talking about tweaking a gun that hasn’t been built yet. Guessing rarely ends well. Yeah, that’s not the best way to go about it. OP, if you don’t have the barrel yet, just buy a barrel that doesn’t come with a hogged out gas port. Missed the "planning " comment. My bad. |
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Posted: 12/29/2023 7:27:03 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TGWLDR: Missed the "planning " comment. My bad. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TGWLDR: Originally Posted By WUPHF: Originally Posted By KILLERB6: Originally Posted By TGWLDR: BRT tubes are solid, provided the correct one is chosen. What is your current GP diameter? How does it shoot currently? We’re talking about tweaking a gun that hasn’t been built yet. Guessing rarely ends well. Yeah, that’s not the best way to go about it. OP, if you don’t have the barrel yet, just buy a barrel that doesn’t come with a hogged out gas port. Missed the "planning " comment. My bad. So did I 
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Posted: 12/29/2023 7:40:30 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WUPHF: Yeah, that’s not the best way to go about it. OP, if you don’t have the barrel yet, just buy a barrel that doesn’t come with a hogged out gas port. This. Start out right, no need to bandaid/reverse engineer things. |
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Posted: 12/29/2023 8:15:19 PM EDT
[#14]
When i first started carrying a duty rifle we couldnt carry optics so i picked up a Bushy A1 Patrolman. SWAT guys that taught the patrol carbine course (i was in the 2nd class offered after BoA incident) told me i had the smartest gun at carbine school bc the A1 sights wouldnt get knocked off zero in the trunk and that gen of Bushmaster were considered exceptionally reliable. Remember K.I.S.S.
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MA, USA
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Posted: 12/29/2023 8:37:57 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WUPHF: Yeah, that’s not the best way to go about it. OP, if you don’t have the barrel yet, just buy a barrel that doesn’t come with a hogged out gas port. Can you make a suggestion on a manufacturer? I’ve read that most modern barrels are overgassed so I don’t know how to identify a properly gassed barrel before buying it. |
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Posted: 12/29/2023 9:12:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: WUPHF]
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Nicky9283: Can you make a suggestion on a manufacturer? I’ve read that most modern barrels are overgassed so I don’t know how to identify a properly gassed barrel before buying it. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Nicky9283: Originally Posted By WUPHF: Yeah, that’s not the best way to go about it. OP, if you don’t have the barrel yet, just buy a barrel that doesn’t come with a hogged out gas port. Can you make a suggestion on a manufacturer? I’ve read that most modern barrels are overgassed so I don’t know how to identify a properly gassed barrel before buying it. Many manufacturers don’t advertise their gas port sizes but I’m sure a few emails would yield the answers you’re looking for. I believe a good all around combo suppressed/unsuppressed point to look for in an 11.5” barrel is around the .068 range, but I’d do a little research to verify. If you’re unsuppressed only, I’d step up a little more. |
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Posted: 12/29/2023 9:24:10 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Nicky9283: Can you make a suggestion on a manufacturer? I’ve read that most modern barrels are overgassed so I don’t know how to identify a properly gassed barrel before buying it. Supressed? Unsurpressed? 50/50? |
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MA, USA
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Posted: 12/29/2023 10:20:56 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TGWLDR: Supressed? Unsurpressed? 50/50? Unsuppressed, unfortunately. Suppressors Not legal in my state 😞 |
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Posted: 12/29/2023 10:32:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TGWLDR]
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Nicky9283: Unsuppressed, unfortunately. Suppressors Not legal in my state 😞 Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Nicky9283: Originally Posted By TGWLDR: Supressed? Unsurpressed? 50/50? Unsuppressed, unfortunately. Suppressors Not legal in my state 😞 High .06X GP diameter should be perfect for what you seek. I'd stick to full power ammo. BRT and Sionics are 2 that I'd look at in 11.5" with appropriate GP diameter. ETA: Regarding the BRT tubes....there are several options. Email BRT directly and they'll walk you through it based on your setup. Clint (BRT) has stated round counts of +10k rds on tubes during testing. Kind of mind blowing to me. I wouldn't dismiss an H1 right put of the gate. Definitely give it a try. Another consideration is your intended action spring choice. If going std CAR buffer, you may want a spring with a bit more ass behind it. I wouldn't go heavy on both spring and buffer though. |
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Posted: 12/30/2023 2:38:42 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TGWLDR: Clint (BRT) has stated round counts of +10k rds on tubes during testing. Link? ... |
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Posted: 12/30/2023 2:51:42 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Molon: Link? ... Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Molon: Originally Posted By TGWLDR: Clint (BRT) has stated round counts of +10k rds on tubes during testing. Link? ... I can't find the exact reference currently. But if you look at his webpage "~ 10k service life" is stated. https://blackrivertactical.com/WP/BRT-EZTUNE-Gas-Tube-Configurable-Midlength-p103167236  Attached FileWhich actually surprised me as the earlier tubes in testing were just starting to show erosion at the GP at 4-5k. I'll look for the citation, I just came across it recently. |
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Posted: 1/1/2024 6:16:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Gordo556]
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Molon: Link? ... @molon last post, page 16 then go to page 17, second post. |
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Posted: 1/1/2024 6:37:38 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryThe tube in that picture is from 5k rounds, not 10K. That post doesn't say anything about BRT having done testing to 10K rounds. In that post, BRT quotes a member that claims he got to ~10K, no picture, no documentation and the person making the claim doesn't even know for sure what diameter tube he had. If anyone has actual documentation to 10K, including beginning and ending measurements of the tube as well as pictures, it would be great to see. ... ... |
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Posted: 1/1/2024 6:45:12 PM EDT
[#24]
Nothing wrong with BRT for a duty rifle. My 11.5 duty rifle has a DT suppressor and an H3 buffer. Got a BRT gas tube with those specifications and the thing has ran like a dream ever since. many thousands of rounds.
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Posted: 1/1/2024 6:48:05 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Molon: The tube in that picture is from 5k rounds, not 10K. That post doesn't say anything about BRT having done testing to 10K rounds. In that post, BRT quotes a member that claims he got to ~10K, no picture, no documentation and the person making the claim doesn't even know for sure what diameter tube he had. If anyone has actual documentation to 10K, including beginning and ending measurements of the tube as well as pictures, it would be great to see. ... ... I agree, but atleast its something... there might be more in that thread, but I did a quick google search for that thread because I remember some pictures, and thats what I came up with. that thread has the most info about these tubes than anywhere else.
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Posted: 1/1/2024 7:13:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TGWLDR]
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Gordo556: I agree, but atleast its something... there might be more in that thread, but I did a quick google search for that thread because I remember some pictures, and thats what I came up with. that thread has the most info about these tubes than anywhere else.Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Gordo556: Originally Posted By Molon: The tube in that picture is from 5k rounds, not 10K. That post doesn't say anything about BRT having done testing to 10K rounds. In that post, BRT quotes a member that claims he got to ~10K, no picture, no documentation and the person making the claim doesn't even know for sure what diameter tube he had. If anyone has actual documentation to 10K, including beginning and ending measurements of the tube as well as pictures, it would be great to see. ... ... I agree, but atleast its something... there might be more in that thread, but I did a quick google search for that thread because I remember some pictures, and thats what I came up with. that thread has the most info about these tubes than anywhere else.And my statement may have been in error. I hadn't really followed the thread for quite awhile. Last I had checked, Clint had stated on pg.15: Theory aside, we've had Carbine length tubes tested over 5000 rounds without significant erosion. Seeing the posted round counts by users may have been what I recall, along with the info on the BRT page. Still looking.... |
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Posted: 1/11/2024 3:18:47 PM EDT
[#27]
I wouldn’t try brt on ar10.
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Posted: 1/11/2024 3:50:59 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NTXGlocker: I wouldn’t try brt on ar10. I'm not real well versed in the AR10 platform, but I'm fairly certain that you couldn't. IIRC, the gas tube length/GP location differ from AR15s. |
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Posted: 1/11/2024 4:45:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: NTXGlocker]
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TGWLDR: I'm not real well versed in the AR10 platform, but I'm fairly certain that you couldn't. IIRC, the gas tube length/GP location differ from AR15s. I tried it on one. My first one to be exact (AR10). Yes, the tube was where it was supposed to be. I had the smith pull it off. There was cycling issues with barrel lockup. So, my first experience: It did NOT work. Could have been barrel lockup, but, it was not needed for that particular gun as I found out. I still have it (the tube add: and the gun lots of laughs ). Maybe it can be used on an AR15 platform but, I already have plenty that work as is. Maybe it’ll become a project at a later date. Add: my large frames all have rifle gas. If their suppressed, They need AGB. Not like ar15’s, no way. When I ordered that tube, I spoke with rep at BRT, they sent me what he thought I needed. In hindsight, money wasted. But I wanted to know how it would work. I did a thread on this, but a few years have passed. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 2/10/2024 7:17:12 AM EDT
[#30]
BRT
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