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Posted: 3/13/2024 6:25:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: caduckgunner]
I have a (Midwest Ind. I think) hand guard. It has been sliding forward after about 5 round, no matter how much I torque down the bolts. MI recommends 35 in lbs. I went up to 65 and it was still sliding forward. It was then notice 2 of the ears were bent. I have no idea how this happened, but I bought it used and must not have noticed it. It is also cerakoted. Would had that anything to do with it sliding off the barrel nut? Am I missing a spacer that goes between the bolt ears? I have seen some stocks with a black piece between the ears. Any ideas?
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Posted: 3/13/2024 6:46:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Molon]
[#1]
Originally Posted By caduckgunner: MI recommends 35 ft lbs. I went up to 65 and it was still sliding forward. LOL. No they don't. There's a good chance that you exceeded the elastic limit of the rail. "17.) Torque the 10-32 x ½” socket head cap screw to 40 in/lbs. Check the receiver and hand guard rail alignment once you reach the torque setting." Originally Posted By caduckgunner: Am I missing a spacer that goes between the bolt ears? Yes you are. It's called a "torque plate" and it's intended to help prevent over-torqueing. ... |
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Posted: 3/13/2024 6:49:24 PM EDT
[#2]
Dude you over torqued it. Also is that a newer model? Did you not install the anti slip plate?
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Posted: 3/13/2024 6:53:05 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Molon: LOL. No they don't. There's a good chance that you exceeded the elastic limit of the rail. 17.) Torque the 10-32 x ½” socket head cap screw to 40 in/lbs. Check the receiver and hand guard rail alignment once you reach the torque setting. Yes you are. It's called a "torque plate" and it's intended to help prevent over-torqueing. ... .... Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Molon: Originally Posted By caduckgunner: MI recommends 35 ft lbs. I went up to 65 and it was still sliding forward. LOL. No they don't. There's a good chance that you exceeded the elastic limit of the rail. 17.) Torque the 10-32 x ½” socket head cap screw to 40 in/lbs. Check the receiver and hand guard rail alignment once you reach the torque setting. Originally Posted By caduckgunner: Am I missing a spacer that goes between the bolt ears? Yes you are. It's called a "torque plate" and it's intended to help prevent over-torqueing. ... .... There is no way he got 65 FOOT-LBS on a 10-32 fastener. That is el-snappo. |
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Posted: 3/13/2024 6:54:40 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By FALARAK: There is no way he got 65 FOOT-LBS on a 10-32 fastener. That is el-snappo. He said it, not me. .... |
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Posted: 3/13/2024 7:05:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: caduckgunner]
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Capt_Destro: Dude you over torqued it. Also is that a newer model? Did you not install the anti slip plate? |
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Posted: 3/13/2024 7:19:22 PM EDT
[#6]
I have two MI hand guards. Neither have the same anti rotation teeth like your picture shows. I agree you are missing the plate but also some of their hand guard models require a thread locker application on the barrel nut to lock in the hand guard from slipping. You might want to post over in the Industry forum to see if they can id your model.
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Posted: 3/13/2024 7:23:47 PM EDT
[#7]
That rail is toast I had the same one mine gave up the ghost on one of the index tabs and started shifting when I would pick it up. You can see if MI will warranty it but it needs to be replaced it is done RIP! The newer combat rail fixed the issues that rail had.
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Posted: 3/13/2024 7:28:01 PM EDT
[#8]
That looks like one of the older rails when they recommended green Loctite on the barrel nut, before the torque plate that prevents forward slippage.
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Posted: 3/13/2024 7:33:16 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Luny421: That looks like one of the older rails when they recommended green Loctite on the barrel nut, before the torque plate that prevents forward slippage. |
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Posted: 3/13/2024 7:34:54 PM EDT
[#10]
What’s the barrel nut look like? If that is a MI handguard and is their CR or SLH series the barrel nut has a knurled pattern on it to help hold the rail in place. Make sure the knurled pattern has not smoothed out from all the movement.
You can probably bang those tabs back in alignment. Once you can get the torque tab and as long as the barrel nut and bolt threads are still good you should be fine. |
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Posted: 3/13/2024 8:06:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Stowe]
[#11]
That looks like one that came on a PSA upper I got years ago. It didn't come with a plate (and would slide off). I tried degreasing things and tightening it more and bent the tabs just like that. The (now) ex I bought it for can choke on it. Not my problem. The new MI offerings that have the little lock plate are vastly improved. I'd never buy one of those older style ones again, but I have bought a couple of the new ones. They've proven to be quite good
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Posted: 3/13/2024 8:23:48 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BSOL: Once you can get the torque tab and as long as the barrel nut and bolt threads are still good you should be fine. This is correct the TORQUE PLATE keeps the rail from moving forward....  |
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Posted: 3/13/2024 8:32:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Luny421]
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Colt653: This is correct the TORQUE PLATE keeps the rail from moving forward.... https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-bnjylkrvq1/images/stencil/320w/products/827/1845/MI-CRBK-2__56090.1648653811.jpg?c=1 The older MI barrel nuts lacked that groove and the interfacing torque plate. MI recommended applying green loctite between the barrel nut and rail. The newer rails use the barrel nut in your photo. If OP could show us a photo of his barrel nut it would help. |
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Posted: 3/13/2024 8:41:39 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Luny421: The older MI barrel nuts lacked that groove and the interfacing torque plate. MI recommended applying green loctite between the barrel nut and rail. The newer rails use the barrel nut in your photo. If OP could show us a photo of his barrel nut it would help. This, but I’d bet it is a newer slip plate model based on it sucking in the anti rotation tabs to the point of bending. |
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Posted: 3/13/2024 9:12:27 PM EDT
[#15]
It looks like this. The one that was on the gun is kind of smoothed out. I have more with more "grip" cut into them. I can install one of those and use the green loctite and see how it does.
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Posted: 3/13/2024 9:15:29 PM EDT
[#16]
Does anyone know which green loctite? There seems to be a few different ones.
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Posted: 3/13/2024 9:22:45 PM EDT
[#17]
Yep. That's the old one. Buying the tab won't help you. Someone will be long with green loctite recommendations. I dont know what you have into it, but id be looking at other options. Not saying you can't make it work, but id have a hard time trusting it (assuming to get the tabs straightened out without snapping them off. But for a few bucks I guess it can't hurt to try.
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Posted: 3/13/2024 9:36:18 PM EDT
[#18]
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Posted: 3/13/2024 9:50:19 PM EDT
[#19]
Yep. New and improved version is GTG.
 
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Posted: 3/13/2024 11:15:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: -OdieGreen-]
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By caduckgunner: It looks like this. The one that was on the gun is kind of smoothed out. I have more with more "grip" cut into them. I can install one of those and use the green loctite and see how it does. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/83781/IMG_3128_jpeg-3158348.JPG As someone else called out that is the old style. It must have warped over time. I’d be curious to see how the barrel nut matches up to the rail inside. Guessing the rail is egg shaped in comparison even when tightened. Controversial opinion: I’m pretty open about my dislike of pinch tab rails. Relying on two little extensions to force the now split extrusion into clamping evenly without excess stress is asking a lot. Something that exerts force directly on the uncompromised extrusion against the barrel nut is much better and rails like CMT and BCM don’t cost much at all. |
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Posted: 3/13/2024 11:23:19 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By -OdieGreen-: As someone else called out that is the old style. It must have warped over time. I’d be curious to see how the barrel nut matches up to the rail inside. Guessing the rail is egg shaped in comparison even when tightened. Controversial opinion: I’m pretty open about my dislike of pinch tab rails. Relying on two little extensions to force the now split extrusion into clamping evenly without excess stress is asking a lot. Something that exerts force directly on the uncompromised extrusion against the barrel nut is much better and rails like CMT and BCM don’t cost much at all. As someone who's been there, I don't think anything warped. It was just a poor design with very little to hold it on. The nuts texturing wasn't even enough to make any reasonable purchase on the handguard and when you overtorque it to compensate for it wanting to slip off, you bend those stupid tiny tabs. Don't get me wrong, I like MI now, but that was a poor design. |
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Posted: 3/13/2024 11:40:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: -OdieGreen-]
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Stowe: As someone who's been there, I don't think anything warped. It was just a poor design with very little to hold it on. The nuts texturing wasn't even enough to make any reasonable purchase on the handguard and when you overtorque it to compensate for it wanting to slip off, you bend those stupid tiny tabs. Don't get me wrong, I like MI now, but that was a poor design. It’s a good work around but it’s still facing some of the same issues. They have something to keep it from slipping forward but the clamping contact is still likely reduced significantly. It’s still also forcing aluminum tabs without structural rigidity to stress warp into forcing the rest of the rail to follow suit. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying everyone should go replace their pinch tab rails or worry. Breakage isn’t common, but there are better designs I would consider at equal cost. ETA: The warping comment was based on the anti rotation tabs pressing into the receiver hard enough to be bent. Not sure how that could happen without something moving in a way it’s not supposed to. Almost all rails have to warp to an extent to apply friction to the barrel nut. |
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Posted: 3/14/2024 7:26:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: reelserious]
[#23]
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Posted: 3/14/2024 9:04:00 AM EDT
[#24]
What length is your rail?
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Posted: 3/14/2024 9:31:38 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By -OdieGreen-: ETA: The warping comment was based on the anti rotation tabs pressing into the receiver hard enough to be bent. Not sure how that could happen without something moving in a way it’s not supposed to. Almost all rails have to warp to an extent to apply friction to the barrel nut. Those tiny little tabs get bent when you over tighten it. If you think about it. Squeezing the tube to try and make it clamp harder is going to put lateral pressure on them, since they're trapped in grooves in the barrel nut and can't move as the base of the rail contracts, they bend instead. |
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USA
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Posted: 3/14/2024 10:11:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10-8DoWork]
[#26]
We’ve had problems with older MI rails and Combat rails doing that and/or rotating slightly with use. Ended up phasing those out and going to Geissele.
Some of the rails were fine, others would walk. For those that have these rails and haven’t had an issue, I wouldn’t worry about. |
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Posted: 3/14/2024 10:13:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Big-Bore]
[#27]
First, you horribly over torqued it as other have said. I torque mine to no more than 35 INCH Pounds with blue Lock-Tite between the barrel nut and handguard, NOT between barrel nut and receiver. That is the Gen 1 handguard and I can tell you for certain, at this point it is screwed. I did the same thing with my very first MWI handguard when they did not have the torque value on the package. They replaced it NQA in a matter of days. On my next one, the torque value NOT TO EXCEED was clearly written on the package along with the recommendation of using the enclosed bonding agent. I never had a problem with them after that.
Second. Before doing anything else, contact MI. They are great to work with and if you accept full responsibility for damaging the handguard by grossly over torquing it due to it slipping and more importantly, don't act like an ass, they MIGHT replace it with a current model. Might not too, but ask first before doing anything else. Third. There is nothing wrong with using a little blue Lock-Tite on them. I have a couple of these on .458 SOCOMs and a couple of drops of blue Lock-Tite keeps them in place. If you need to remove the handguard, you reverse the clamp screws, insert a small piece of metal between the two clamp halves, screw the two screws down on the piece of metal slightly and VERY SLIGHTLY spread the clamp apart and the bond will break. Then you slip off the handguard. Make sure you remove oil from the barrel nut and inside the handguard before applying the Lock-Tite. At this point though, if you try to straighten the tabs they will likely break off, so again, contact MWI before doing anything else. The old Gen 1 were great handguards at the time, but the new versions are many times better with the recoil torque plates, no need for timing the barrel nut, and no real need for a bonding agent. However, even with the new handguards, YOU MUST FOLLOW DIRECTIONS. Go at them with a 24" cheater bar and several beers in you and all bets are off. |
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Posted: 3/14/2024 10:52:52 AM EDT
[#28]
As soon as I read the title I knew exactly what handguard it was going to be.
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VA, USA
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Posted: 3/14/2024 11:34:11 AM EDT
[#29]
I totally understand the frustration and trying to over tightening it after you applied to correct torque limits per instructions and it's still slipping off.
I think yeah you should try to get a newer one. Perhaps call MI and explain the situation and maybe they can sell it at a discounted price to you. |
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Posted: 3/14/2024 12:26:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: funnelcake]
[#30]
I could be wrong but I don't remember MI making an M-Lok version of their Gen 2 handguards & I haven't seen any later versions w/ the two tabs per side deal nor were the barrel nuts fully knurled. E.g. looks like a knock-off to me. Still, the Gen 2 "torque plate" may work. It has the added benefit of hooking behind the barrel nut to prevent the handguard from slipping forward.
https://midwestindustriesinc.com/mi-gen2-torque-plate/ |
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Posted: 3/14/2024 2:28:01 PM EDT
[#31]
I had a similar issue with an older MI rail a few years ago, but went away from the split clamp type rails and never had another problem.
Go with a Geissele, BCM, or Aero rail and avoid any split clamp-on rail. |
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OK, USA
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Posted: 3/14/2024 3:04:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TonyRumore]
[#32]
I have a couple tubes of the green loctite that Midwest Industries shipped with their older hand guards. MI called it "Bedding Compound".
Just shoot me an e-mail to [email protected] if you need it. Just pay freight. It will be $4.00 shipped USPS First Class/Ground Advantage. Tony Rumore Tromix  |
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Posted: 3/14/2024 3:05:09 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 10-8DoWork: We’ve had problems with older MI rails and Combat rails doing that and/or rotating slightly with use. Ended up phasing those out and going to Geissele. Some of the rails were fine, others would walk. For those that have these rails and haven’t had an issue, I wouldn’t worry about. This can't happen with the combat rail, it uses a different barrel nut and the torque plate prevents forward movement. It was designed to address the deficiencies in MI's older barrel nut design. |
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Posted: 3/14/2024 4:09:01 PM EDT
[#34]
If you call MI they will help you. Their customer service is second to none.
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USA
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Posted: 3/15/2024 9:15:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10-8DoWork]
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Luny421: This can't happen with the combat rail, it uses a different barrel nut and the torque plate prevents forward movement. It was designed to address the deficiencies in MI's older barrel nut design. Correct, the combat rails would not move forward. The combat rails would rotate over time. Yes there are tabs that prevent it from rotating too far however with most uppers, there is play between the receiver and the tabs. Some combinations had more space than others. If you have a good fit between the receiver and antirotation tabs, I'm sure it would be just fine. Our receivers did not. You could zero an IR laser, use the rifle for awhile and notice that the zero has changed slightly. I have used witness marks on multiple units and they do indeed rotate some over time. |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 12:48:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Big-Bore]
[#36]
Never mind.
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Posted: 3/21/2024 7:04:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: caduckgunner]
[#37]
This arrived in the mail today. I will update on how it works after I get a chance to install the handguard and get to the range.
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Posted: 3/30/2024 8:41:55 AM EDT
[#38]
@OP
Any update? |
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Posted: 4/17/2024 1:55:29 PM EDT
[#39]
Finally got it installed. I'm not really sure what it does as it doesn't look like it makes contact anywhere where it would help. Am I missing something? And yes I know the barrel but is fucked up. This design is stupid, and apparently they make shims now for this style, but none of the 3 different rails I have with style nut came with shims. I have a new barrel nut on the way.
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Posted: 4/17/2024 2:18:37 PM EDT
[#40]
can you not see how the part they sent you is hooked on the barrel nut, preventing the handguard from sliding forward????
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Posted: 4/17/2024 2:51:57 PM EDT
[#41]
I've never done this, but has anyone tried the locktite in addition to a couple of set screws drilled through the handguard and the portion of the barrel nut forward of the threads?
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SC, USA
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Posted: 4/17/2024 3:20:46 PM EDT
[#42]
Someone did an impressive job on that barrel nut.
Personally I'd trash it and move on. Hopefully the barrel nut has enough teeth left to be removeable. I have a couple of the newer Midwest rails and have no issues with the lockup to the barrel nut, it is solid and specifies a torque value on the fasteners. I used no loctite or anything between the barrel nut and rail. Also the one time I dealt with Midwest CS, they were awesome, as mentioned. I wouldn't hesitate to go with one of their current production rails. Many other good options out there too. |
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Posted: 4/17/2024 3:24:14 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Colt653: can you not see how the part they sent you is hooked on the barrel nut, preventing the handguard from sliding forward???? |
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Posted: 4/17/2024 4:56:04 PM EDT
[#44]
What in the shit did that barrel nut do to you to deserve that kinda treatment?
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Posted: 4/17/2024 7:01:07 PM EDT
[#45]
You destroyed that thing.
 I’d suggest getting a handguard that’s not made with a priority on cheap manufacturing costs and having someone else install it. 
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Posted: 4/17/2024 8:58:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Strikefirst]
[#46]
If saving money is the game Buy this.
I bought one for my Dad. They work great. Similar to what Primary Arms expo arms brand sells and the bad Workhorse rail. They make shorter and longer. It's finished nice. Locks up solid and doesn't move. It's not Gucci. But it works. |
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Posted: 4/17/2024 11:24:46 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By -OdieGreen-: You destroyed that thing. I'd suggest getting a handguard that's not made with a priority on cheap manufacturing costs and having someone else install it. |
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Posted: 4/17/2024 11:42:57 PM EDT
[#48]
RIP to that poor barrel nut lol.
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Posted: 4/18/2024 12:57:38 AM EDT
[#49]
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Posted: 4/18/2024 12:48:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Colt653]
[#50]
sledge hammer is not the correct tool for setting barrel nut torque
LOL |
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