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Page AR-15 » Troubleshooting
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Posted: 2/19/2024 7:53:53 PM EDT
Yes, I know that this is not an AR15 but it also sort of is. Z-M Weapons LR300 gen2.






Here you can see the recoil system. The gas tube is shortened, and rides inside the significantly extended carrier gas key. The recoil spring surrounds these parts. The barrel is based off of an AR-15, but uses a somewhat different profile, and a different method of lining up with the gas block.







These last pictures show the bolt carrier assembly. It uses a standard AR-15 bolt, combined with a truncated bolt carrier. There is no reciprocating buffer with this system, and the rear of the carrier bottoms out on a rubberized buffer material inside the cut-off receiver extension.

I'm having a problem with this rifle in that I get frequent light primer strikes due to the bolt failing to return completely into battery after firing. It is fairly overgassed, and ejects brass at approximately the 1:00 position. It appears that this is causing fairly significant bolt bounce, resulting in failures to return to battery. I initially discovered the issue when I replaced the bolt with a new one, fitted with fresh gas rings. I reverted to the old bolt, and the issue seemed to go away, however I noticed that when I fire the rifle with the magazine resting on the shooting platform, the issue returns.

My theory of the issue is that when the bolt closes, the significant velocity causes the carrier to bounce back open. Increased friction, from either the fresh gas rings or upward pressure from the magazine feed lips, prevents The bolt carrier from fully returning into battery. When I fire the rifle, the hammer strikes the partially out of battery carrier, causing a light primer strike.

This rifle currently has a low friction cam pin installed, and a fresh recoil spring. I have no way of reducing the amount of gas in the system without having a new barrel created from a blank. Since it uses a somewhat unique barrel, this would be difficult and expensive.

Besides that, can anyone think of other possible fixes for my issue? I have no way of adding mass to the bolt carrier, as the rear of the carrier must be open to allow the hammer to strike the firing pin. There is no reciprocating buffer, so that portion is out as well.

Please let me know your thoughts, thanks!
Link Posted: 2/19/2024 7:59:29 PM EDT
[#1]
Neat rifle.  I remember when they were released back in 07 or so.

I don't know enough about the design to be helpful unfortunately.
Link Posted: 2/19/2024 8:41:45 PM EDT
[#2]
OP, you might look into a gas port bushing.  That will lower the amount of gas coming into the system.
Link Posted: 2/19/2024 9:59:15 PM EDT
[#3]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By backbencher:
OP, you might look into a gas port bushing.  That will lower the amount of gas coming into the system.
View Quote

I don't know much about these. Would be interested in knowing more.
Link Posted: 2/19/2024 10:20:48 PM EDT
[#4]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Scrapple:


I don't know much about these. Would be interested in knowing more.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Scrapple:
Originally Posted By backbencher:  OP, you might look into a gas port bushing.  That will lower the amount of gas coming into the system.


I don't know much about these. Would be interested in knowing more.


Well, you don't want to weld on the bbl to plug up the gas port & redrill it.

So you use an endmill to enlarge the area around the gas port, then you put a bushing in the new shallow hole, and the bushing has a smaller diameter than the existing gas port.  Commonly used on Mini-14s, we generally have other options for ARs, but clearly you don't.

A replacement bbl actually wouldn't be all that much since you're using a stock AR bolt, which means the bbl is very likely using a stock AR barrel extension.

White Oak barrel extension, your bolt, & Green Mountain barrel blank, send it to these guys w/ your specs:  https://tp555.com/

They did me a beautiful 27" pencil bbl for my oldest's Christmas present one year.
Link Posted: 2/20/2024 10:01:11 AM EDT
[#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By backbencher:


Well, you don't want to weld on the bbl to plug up the gas port & redrill it.

So you use an endmill to enlarge the area around the gas port, then you put a bushing in the new shallow hole, and the bushing has a smaller diameter than the existing gas port.  Commonly used on Mini-14s, we generally have other options for ARs, but clearly you don't.

A replacement bbl actually wouldn't be all that much since you're using a stock AR bolt, which means the bbl is very likely using a stock AR barrel extension.

White Oak barrel extension, your bolt, & Green Mountain barrel blank, send it to these guys w/ your specs:  https://tp555.com/

They did me a beautiful 27" pencil bbl for my oldest's Christmas present one year.
View Quote


Interesting information. I suppose that it would be possible to have a custom barrel made.
Any other ideas, just to have options?
Link Posted: 2/20/2024 10:42:57 AM EDT
[#6]
Link Posted: 2/20/2024 10:48:35 AM EDT
[#7]
Another alternative would be to get an adjustable gas carrier, move the proprietary key to that, and chop off the tail.  Not easy, but no barrel work, no disassembly of the gas system on the barrel.  And now you have adjustable gas.

I like the new barrel idea though, you could get a 14.7" pinned & welded pencil, drop some weight.
Link Posted: 2/20/2024 11:06:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Dano523] [#8]
Link Posted: 2/20/2024 12:05:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Scrapple] [#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bfoosh06:
"I noticed that when I fire the rifle with the magazine resting on the shooting platform, the issue returns."

Is it possible, your mags feed lips are "dragging" on the carrier group ?

Maybe a new mag catch could help ?
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Originally Posted By bfoosh06:
"I noticed that when I fire the rifle with the magazine resting on the shooting platform, the issue returns."

Is it possible, your mags feed lips are "dragging" on the carrier group ?

Maybe a new mag catch could help ?

Oh I'm sure that's happening, but the point is that the rifle is so sensitive to both bounce that that is causing an issue, so I'm hoping to mitigate the bolt bounce and over gassing as much as I can.

Originally Posted By backbencher:
Another alternative would be to get an adjustable gas carrier, move the proprietary key to that, and chop off the tail.  Not easy, but no barrel work, no disassembly of the gas system on the barrel.  And now you have adjustable gas.

I like the new barrel idea though, you could get a 14.7" pinned & welded pencil, drop some weight.


I was also thinking about doing that, but I'm not all that familiar with those adjustable carriers. Feel free to post more details, but if you think that there is a version out there that would be compatible with this gas key, then I am very interested.

The idea of creating a new barrel isn't bad, but if I can keep this set up as is and then have adjustable gas through the carrier, that does sound pretty good.

Originally Posted By Dano523:
Is the gas block not adjustable on this rig?

http://i.imgur.com/aXBJMYW.jpg

As for bolt bounce, should not be a problem since not running rig in full auto, and if the bolt is not locking back up after the bounce, then not lubing with CLP to begin with, or something has major binding instead.

Lastly, when was the last time the recoil spring was replaced, since that needs to happen every 4K rounds.  Also if gas block is not adjustable, then may want to thing about going to extra tension recoil springs.
If you run into the problem of not able to find replacement recoil springs, then Brownells sells spring stock, and you can make your own replacement springs.


That adjustable gas block is from an old post on this website, and it was a custom job done by the owner of that rifle. I would consider doing that as well, and would love to hear from him on how he did it, and how it worked out.

Nothing is binding in the action, it feels very smooth, but as I mentioned earlier any added friction such as new gas rings or the magazine feed lips pushing upwards on the bottom of the bolt carrier causes it to fail to return all the way forwards.

The recoil spring is pretty much brand new. I considered asking springco to make me a custom stiffer spring, but this one is already quite stiff. I currently have a spare spring for this as well.
Link Posted: 2/20/2024 4:33:01 PM EDT
[#10]
OP, for a replacement carrier, might look into the Bootleg Inc adjustable gas carrier.  I can't get to their site right now, which is weird.

How does your gas key attach to your existing carrier?  Just 2 normal screws or something else?
Link Posted: 2/20/2024 4:53:23 PM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By backbencher:
OP, for a replacement carrier, might look into the Bootleg Inc adjustable gas carrier.  I can't get to their site right now, which is weird.

How does your gas key attach to your existing carrier?  Just 2 normal screws or something else?
View Quote

Yeah their website is down for me also. I did some digging and that's the one that I found that seems to adjust internally, regardless of the gas key.

The gas key screws in the same way, so it shouldn't be an issue to install it... Might be tough to remove from its current carrier, however.
Link Posted: 2/20/2024 5:18:08 PM EDT
[#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Scrapple:


Yeah their website is down for me also. I did some digging and that's the one that I found that seems to adjust internally, regardless of the gas key.

The gas key screws in the same way, so it shouldn't be an issue to install it... Might be tough to remove from its current carrier, however.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Scrapple:
Originally Posted By backbencher:  OP, for a replacement carrier, might look into the Bootleg Inc adjustable gas carrier.  I can't get to their site right now, which is weird.

How does your gas key attach to your existing carrier?  Just 2 normal screws or something else?


Yeah their website is down for me also. I did some digging and that's the one that I found that seems to adjust internally, regardless of the gas key.

The gas key screws in the same way, so it shouldn't be an issue to install it... Might be tough to remove from its current carrier, however.


All screws must yield to a drill press.
Link Posted: 2/20/2024 5:19:41 PM EDT
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By backbencher:
OP, for a replacement carrier, might look into the Bootleg Inc adjustable gas carrier.  I can't get to their site right now, which is weird.

How does your gas key attach to your existing carrier?  Just 2 normal screws or something else?
View Quote

On the ZM the key is pocketed into the carrier.

Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 2/20/2024 5:30:16 PM EDT
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By RDTCU:


On the ZM the key is pocketed into the carrier.

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/173511/1000003781_png-3135755.JPG
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By RDTCU:
Originally Posted By backbencher: OP, for a replacement carrier, might look into the Bootleg Inc adjustable gas carrier.  I can't get to their site right now, which is weird.

How does your gas key attach to your existing carrier?  Just 2 normal screws or something else?


On the ZM the key is pocketed into the carrier.

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/173511/1000003781_png-3135755.JPG


 So he's gonna need a mill.

New barrel might be the simplest, and allows you to drop some weight up front as well, OP.  14.7" P&W pencil!

Is the external diameter of the barrel extension 1"?
Link Posted: 2/20/2024 5:49:38 PM EDT
[#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By backbencher:
 So he's gonna need a mill.

New barrel might be the simplest, and allows you to drop some weight up front as well, OP.  14.7" P&W pencil!

Is the external diameter of the barrel extension 1"?
View Quote

Some of us have mills
Link Posted: 2/20/2024 6:06:14 PM EDT
[#16]
OP, what gas rings are you using?
Did you scrape and clean the bore in the carrier?
New rings in a dirty bolt chamber will drag.
1-piece rings are garbage and should never be used IMO...

I had similar issues with my own bufferless build early on and found that headspace was on the tight side.
If your issues started with a new bolt that's where i'd start.
Link Posted: 2/20/2024 6:49:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: KarlSG1] [#17]
Fabricate a new gas tube, with the rear part tapped for set screws  with various sized holes bored through them, to act as replaceable gas jets?
Link Posted: 2/20/2024 8:02:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Scrapple] [#18]







I'm not seeing it, to me it still looks like a standard bolt carrier

Edit:


Here's what the bootleg BCG looks like with the gas key removed.
Link Posted: 2/21/2024 3:01:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: RDTCU] [#19]
I'll see if i can find it in the parts bin but the carrier i have has a shallow pocket milled to accept the key footprint.
The pocket takes the shear loads so you don't snap the key bolts.
On my build i keyed the key to the shortened standard carrier with a hollow bushing around the gas port.
Link Posted: 2/21/2024 1:23:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Dano523] [#20]
Link Posted: 2/21/2024 1:59:04 PM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Dano523:
https://i.ibb.co/MMQ7SGN/20240220-190526.jpg
Not able to add an adjustable gas bolt to key since gas tube is welded to top of carrier, gas passage in front of the bolts,and adjuster would  have to go through the bolts, unless threaded channel to front side of key isntead.

http://i.imgur.com/aXBJMYW.jpg

So would be easy to intercept the gas passage at the front block, drip and tap it for set screw shown above

Hence figure out size of gas passage on block, to come up with a set screw that is wider than it, drill the intercept channel for set screw to other side of passage void, go in with 90 degree drill bit to V channel the other side, shorten and 90degree the end of the set screw, and you now have a gas adjuster that can not only close off the gas passage in the block, but backed off to open the gas port as needed to reduce the amount of pressure out of the barrel port to B/C, so bolt is not opening too soon to cause the rig to over function.

Also to point out, front channel as also been drilled and taped, for a jam screw to hold the adjustment set screw in place.  So front jam set screw is loosened, side gas screws is set to just allow the bolt to lock back on last round out of mag, turned out another 1/8" for good messure to add just a touch more gas, and then jam screw is tighen into side of set screw, to retain in in place.

If machining is beyond our skill level, then check with the local guys, since one may be a machinist to do the work for you.  It a 5 min job if you know what your doing, and really just paint by numbers using the DRO.

This will at least resolve the bolt opening too soon for the ammo in play, and may slightly help with the bolt bounce.  I say slightly, since will reduce the amount of carrier slamming into the back buffer too cause the carrier to be sling shoot off it, but without a buffer in play as the bolt does go to lock up, still going to have the carrier bouncing back off the face of barrel extension at lock up.

As for carrier on the rig, it just a cut standard AR10 carrier, and you can tell that its a AR10 carrier, since the hammer for it uses is the narrow type, while a DPMS/stoner carrier uses the wide type hammer isntead (wider hammer will bind in the ar-10 lower carrier opening).
https://i.ibb.co/MGB1pzy/20240219-175756.jpg
View Quote


Wait, what?  It's a chopped AR-15 carrier.
Link Posted: 2/21/2024 2:07:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Dano523] [#22]
Link Posted: 2/21/2024 2:11:13 PM EDT
[#23]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Dano523:
Yep, and just different type gas key.  
Take a close look and can see the standard ramps for the FA, when the standard carrier was cut to shorten it to work without an receiver extension void area. Hence back FA receiver as cut in half, and you would never machine a carrier from scratch, to have the back half of FA detent still in play.
https://i.ibb.co/JdQWjgw/20240220-190103.jpg

So only thing special on the carrier, is just welded on long tube key.
View Quote


Looks like the long gas key is bolted to an adapter that is bolted to a standard chopped carrier, Dano.
Link Posted: 2/21/2024 2:24:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Dano523] [#24]
Link Posted: 2/21/2024 9:56:37 PM EDT
[#25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Dano523:
https://i.ibb.co/MMQ7SGN/20240220-190526.jpg
Not able to add an adjustable gas bolt to key since gas tube is welded to top of carrier, gas passage in front of the bolts,and adjuster would  have to go through the bolts, unless threaded channel to front side of key isntead.

Also to point out, if dead blow effect device was to be added to keep the carrier from bouncing off the back of barrel extension, it would need to be added to the extended key.  With it not solid, front tube welded to top of carrier, such a device on the extended from end of the key front end, would just cause the weld to break in time.

http://i.imgur.com/aXBJMYW.jpg

So would be easy to intercept the gas passage at the front block, drill and tap  for set screws shown above

Hence figure out size of gas passage on block, to come up with a set screw that is wider than it, drill the intercept channel for set screw to other side of passage void, go in with 90 degree drill bit to V channel the other side, shorten and 90degree the end of the set screw, and you now have a gas adjuster that can not only close off the gas passage in the block, but backed off to open the gas port as needed to reduce the amount of pressure out of the barrel port to B/C, so bolt is not opening too soon to cause the rig to over function.

Also to point out, front channel as also been drilled and taped, for a jam screw to hold the adjustment set screw in place.  So front jam set screw is loosened, side gas screws is set to just allow the bolt to lock back on last round out of mag, turned out another 1/8" for good messure to add just a touch more gas, and then jam screw is tighen into side of set screw, to retain in in place.

If machining is beyond our skill level, then check with the local guys, since one may be a machinist to do the work for you.  It a 5 min job if you know what your doing, and really just paint by numbers using the DRO.

This will at least resolve the bolt opening too soon for the ammo in play, and may slightly help with the bolt bounce.  I say slightly, since will reduce the amount of carrier slamming into the back buffer too cause the carrier to be sling shoot off it, but without a buffer in play as the bolt does go to lock up, still going to have the carrier bouncing back off the face of barrel extension at lock up.

As for carrier on the rig, it just a cut standard AR carrier, and you can tell that its a AR10 carrier, since the hammer for it uses is the narrow type, while a DPMS/stoner carrier uses the wide type hammer isntead (wider hammer will bind in the ar-10 lower carrier opening).
https://i.ibb.co/MGB1pzy/20240219-175756.jpg

As why it never caught on (even with it being a folder that should have sold like hotcakes for para use), it was due to lack of buffer to control bolt bounce for full auto fire in the first place. Hence sear release gap will grow as the hammer rear tab and auto sear wear, with to much service time to keep that in check at .083" so you don't have problems with fail to fire in full auto to start with, and semi with the carrier not fully returning to be tight against barrel extension at trigger pull.

With buffer system, you can have an auto sear gap grow well into the .100" range, and since the buffer will keep the carrier from bouncing off the barrel extension, don't run into  fail to fire problems with FP being block/bolt staying locked up at feed to begin with.

View Quote

This sounds very complex, and I have no machining capability.
That said, I am interested in improving the performance of this rifle somehow, and reducing the gas flow would accomplish that.
Link Posted: 2/22/2024 10:11:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: backbencher] [#26]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Scrapple:


This sounds very complex, and I have no machining capability.
That said, I am interested in improving the performance of this rifle somehow, and reducing the gas flow would accomplish that.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Scrapple:
Originally Posted By Dano523:
https://i.ibb.co/MMQ7SGN/20240220-190526.jpg
Not able to add an adjustable gas bolt to key since gas tube is welded to top of carrier, gas passage in front of the bolts,and adjuster would  have to go through the bolts, unless threaded channel to front side of key isntead.

Also to point out, if dead blow effect device was to be added to keep the carrier from bouncing off the back of barrel extension, it would need to be added to the extended key.  With it not solid, front tube welded to top of carrier, such a device on the extended from end of the key front end, would just cause the weld to break in time.

http://i.imgur.com/aXBJMYW.jpg

So would be easy to intercept the gas passage at the front block, drill and tap  for set screws shown above

Hence figure out size of gas passage on block, to come up with a set screw that is wider than it, drill the intercept channel for set screw to other side of passage void, go in with 90 degree drill bit to V channel the other side, shorten and 90degree the end of the set screw, and you now have a gas adjuster that can not only close off the gas passage in the block, but backed off to open the gas port as needed to reduce the amount of pressure out of the barrel port to B/C, so bolt is not opening too soon to cause the rig to over function.

Also to point out, front channel as also been drilled and taped, for a jam screw to hold the adjustment set screw in place.  So front jam set screw is loosened, side gas screws is set to just allow the bolt to lock back on last round out of mag, turned out another 1/8" for good messure to add just a touch more gas, and then jam screw is tighen into side of set screw, to retain in in place.

If machining is beyond our skill level, then check with the local guys, since one may be a machinist to do the work for you.  It a 5 min job if you know what your doing, and really just paint by numbers using the DRO.

This will at least resolve the bolt opening too soon for the ammo in play, and may slightly help with the bolt bounce.  I say slightly, since will reduce the amount of carrier slamming into the back buffer too cause the carrier to be sling shoot off it, but without a buffer in play as the bolt does go to lock up, still going to have the carrier bouncing back off the face of barrel extension at lock up.

As for carrier on the rig, it just a cut standard AR carrier, and you can tell that its a AR10 carrier, since the hammer for it uses is the narrow type, while a DPMS/stoner carrier uses the wide type hammer isntead (wider hammer will bind in the ar-10 lower carrier opening).
https://i.ibb.co/MGB1pzy/20240219-175756.jpg

As why it never caught on (even with it being a folder that should have sold like hotcakes for para use), it was due to lack of buffer to control bolt bounce for full auto fire in the first place. Hence sear release gap will grow as the hammer rear tab and auto sear wear, with to much service time to keep that in check at .083" so you don't have problems with fail to fire in full auto to start with, and semi with the carrier not fully returning to be tight against barrel extension at trigger pull.

With buffer system, you can have an auto sear gap grow well into the .100" range, and since the buffer will keep the carrier from bouncing off the barrel extension, don't run into  fail to fire problems with FP being block/bolt staying locked up at feed to begin with.


This sounds very complex, and I have no machining capability.
That said, I am interested in improving the performance of this rifle somehow, and reducing the gas flow would accomplish that.


Don't say no machining capability.  You have a drill & a Dremel, no?  

It would seem your fancy gas key would bolt right on to a Bootleg carrier.  Their website is back up:

https://bootleginc.com/

That would give you the most control, and you can always have a pencil barrel to drop weight later.
Link Posted: 2/22/2024 10:28:24 AM EDT
[#27]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By backbencher:

Don't say no machining capability.  You have a drill & a Dremel, no?  

It would seem your fancy gas key would bolt right on to a Bootleg carrier.  Their website is back up:

https://bootleginc.com/

That would give you the most control, and you can always have a pencil barrel to drop weight later.
View Quote

It won't just bolt up.
The ZM key is keyed into the carrier.
Link Posted: 2/22/2024 11:21:14 AM EDT
[#28]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By RDTCU:


It won't just bolt up.
The ZM key is keyed into the carrier.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By RDTCU:
Originally Posted By backbencher:  Don't say no machining capability.  You have a drill & a Dremel, no?  

It would seem your fancy gas key would bolt right on to a Bootleg carrier.  Their website is back up:

https://bootleginc.com/

That would give you the most control, and you can always have a pencil barrel to drop weight later.


It won't just bolt up.
The ZM key is keyed into the carrier.


Could an ARFCOMer with a mill in South Carolina mill a Bootleg carrier so the ZM key would fit?
Link Posted: 2/22/2024 11:42:04 AM EDT
[#29]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By backbencher:


Could an ARFCOMer with a mill in South Carolina mill a Bootleg carrier so the ZM key would fit?
View Quote

Well I'm in Pennsylvania, but I can easily ship it all out!
This would interest me for sure
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