User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 1/24/2007 9:49:38 AM EDT
[#1]
hmmm some of the places I have seen charge around 75 dollars to do a transfer... on a 600 dollar suppresor I'd only have 49.50 in tax lol 6 of one half a dozen of the other... I was hoping to find one around that has some in stock that I can hear test fired... I am near san antonio so I could go to san antonio austin corpus houston if I had to... dallas if I was desperate lol
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/24/2007 9:53:02 AM EDT
[#2]
opps duplicate post... tryin to get my post count up lol
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/24/2007 10:18:54 AM EDT
[#3]
While Trust law is based on state law and can vary from state to state, I believe your statements are generally incorrect. Under general trust law, a trustee holds "legal" title to property held in trust. A beneficiary owns "beneficial" title to the property held in trust, A beneficiary generally has all rights to use of a property as set forth in the trust agreement. Now whether the BATFE will take a different view is another story. Also, beneficiaries cannot always be removed by the grantor of a trust, e.g. irrevocable trusts. |
|||
|
|
|
Posted: 1/24/2007 10:23:34 AM EDT
[#4]
Willmaker trusts don't seem to have the kind of language you are alluding to.
We are discussing revocable living trusts. |
||
|
|
|
Posted: 1/24/2007 10:26:12 AM EDT
[#5]
Forgive me. If Willmaker doesn't have such language then I must be incorrect. 
|
|||
|
|
|
Posted: 1/24/2007 10:41:34 AM EDT
[#6]
Quicken WillMaker Plus Legal Manual, Chapter 15, Part 4 |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/24/2007 10:54:16 AM EDT
[#7]
You are either reading that out of context or Quicken WillMaker is wrong. |
||
|
|
|
Posted: 1/24/2007 10:58:38 AM EDT
[#8]
Nope.
Please explain why you believe this to be the case. |
||
|
|
|
Posted: 1/24/2007 11:10:08 AM EDT
[#9]
Because trusts are very flexible instruments and a grantor of a trust can generally do whatever they want with the trust. If the grantor of the trust says in the trust that the beneficiaries can do x,y an z, then the beneficiaries have legal standing and authority to compel the trustee of the trust to allow them to do x, y and z. The statement you found in the Quicken Willmaker legal section is either taken out of context to refute my earlier point or it is wrong. ETA: Let me give an example. If grantor of a trust funds the trust with certificates of deposit and says the beneficiaries are entitled to all interest as it is earned then the beneficaries can compel the trustee of the trust to pay the interest over as it is earned. If the grantor of the trust funds the trust with a Corvette convertible and says the beneficiaries have the right to use the Corvette convertible then the beneficiaries can compel the trustee to allow its use. |
|||
|
|
|
Posted: 1/24/2007 11:36:08 AM EDT
[#10]
As long as it doesn't violate some other law.
Why would a grantor do such a thing? To turn beneficiaries into pseudo-trustees? I'm not convinced this is kosher with BATFE.
The first statement appears to be correct with respect to a Willmaker trust. The second statement should also be true since we are discussing revocable trusts. |
|||
|
|
|
Posted: 1/24/2007 11:44:12 AM EDT
[#11]
|
||||
|
|
|
Posted: 1/24/2007 11:59:13 AM EDT
[#12]
So you're volunteering to be the test case?
I doubt many here would want to use an irrevocable trust as a vehicle for NFA ownership. |
||
|
|
|
Posted: 1/24/2007 12:04:56 PM EDT
[#13]
I used an irrevocable spend thrift trust with the beneficiaries as my children. The nice trick was that I set myself up as Trustee with the power and discretion to sell or exchange any assets of the Trust (if your computer program doesn't allow you to do that then it's probably not kosher  ). So I can transfer property in and out of the trust at any time (subject to the BATFE transfer process).
|
|||
|
|
|
Posted: 1/24/2007 12:10:49 PM EDT
[#14]
I guess you're the exception, then. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/24/2007 12:27:49 PM EDT
[#15]
No offense wdlsguy, but I have gone back through the last couple of pages in this thread and you sure do give a lot of legal advice for someone who is not a lawyer. Personally I'd be a little bit cautious about taking your advice. |
||
|
|
|
Posted: 1/24/2007 12:31:42 PM EDT
[#16]
Don't, then. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/24/2007 12:38:16 PM EDT
[#17]
Don't worry. I won't. The statement was more of a caution to others who make their way through this thread. |
||
|
|
|
Posted: 1/24/2007 12:39:50 PM EDT
[#18]
I recently had the opportunity to "educate" a trust attorney on a fine point of real estate transfer law. Trust attorney checked with real estate attorney colleague. Real estate attorney told trust attorney I was correct. Just because someone has a law degree doesn't mean they know what they are talking about, so unless you are a trust attorney... |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/24/2007 12:46:07 PM EDT
[#19]
I'm certain you "educate" people on things all day long. I have enough experience with trusts in Virginia where I feel comfortable assisting persons with setting up trusts and have helped a number of members from this board set up trusts in Virginia for free. I'll make sure to refer any inquiries to you from now on. |
||
|
|
|
Posted: 1/24/2007 2:14:58 PM EDT
[#20]
Guys, you have made your points, and I'd like to ask you each to back off now and let this thread move on to address questions raised by other posters. This is a technical forum, not GD.
FWIW, nothing in this thread should be constued as legal advice, unless the poster has identified himself as an attorney by listing the name of his practice and which state bars he has been admitted to. In other words, everything herein has no more or less value than other internet posts. Instead, weigh each source and take each post for what it is. Thanks for your cooperation. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/26/2007 1:38:36 PM EDT
[#21]
Can a person who is 20 years old create an individual revocable living trust?
If yes, can this person (once they turn 21) transfer NFA items into the trust which they created when they were 20? Or must they wait untill their 21st birthday to legally create a trust? |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/26/2007 5:17:46 PM EDT
[#22]
It would depend on your state's law, but I would assume that anyone who reaches the age of majority has the ability to set up a trust. There was another thread recently where an 18 year old received written confirmation from the BATFE that he could possess a NFA item through a LLC or Trust. So assuming your state law permits (and I would assume it does) you should be good to go. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/26/2007 5:19:38 PM EDT
[#23]
I believe (I am not a lawyer and nothin I say should be constued as legal fact or legal advice) you can make a trust at 20 I believe as long as you are over 18 you can make one (being the "legal" age to sign documents ect) yes I think after your 21 the items can be bought by the trust.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/29/2007 10:02:03 AM EDT
[#24]
As an FYI: I just bought this years "Tax Cut" software. Inside is an unadvertised added bonus: A CD entitled "WILLPower".
This covers creating revocable living trusts. It seems to cover all the aspects people have mentioned -- two trustees, ability to add/subtract items owned by the trust, allows trustees and Grantor full use of trust property .... So if you were thinking of using Tax software, you may want to think about Tax Cut, and its included freebee. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/1/2007 8:11:38 PM EDT
[#25]
Is this as easy as it seems? I really feel like I am missing something. I have the RLT in my hand. All I have to do is sign it in front of a notary, they notorize it and I am done.
I can now use the Trust in place of fingerprints and CLEO sign off? |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/2/2007 6:27:46 AM EDT
[#26]
YES!
Seems like it is too easy, but they still check your background. Which is about all they need to do anyway. I dont think a lot of crooks try to register NFA firearms. But some think their felonies back in the 60's and 70's wont matter since they have grown up. And the dumbies get caught. It works exactly like it should, so go for it! 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/2/2007 7:00:02 AM EDT
[#27]
You might as well have the Certification of Trust notarized at the same time as the Declaration of Trust. Send copies of the Certification with your forms -- simpler, smaller, and fewer un-neccessary personal / family details recorded forever in the ATF record keeping system.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/2/2007 7:02:47 AM EDT
[#28]
The response letter from the ATF addressing the age issue actually included the fingerprint cards for an individual transfer. Whether or not you use a trust has no bearing on the age restriction, because the age question still applies to the trustee. Basically, any 18 year-old *should* be able to submit (using individual, trust, or corp) a F1 or a private-transfer F4 (transferor is NOT a licensed dealer, importer, manufacturer, etc) and have it approved. This is because the law only places the 21 year-old age restriction on transfers from dealers. That being said, I'm 19 and I sent out my ftf F4 out in the mail on Monday. We'll see what the atf has to say about the F4 issue if/when my paperwork is approved, but as of right now the F1 issue is official: you can sumbit the application at 18. |
||
|
|
|
Posted: 2/2/2007 1:23:57 PM EDT
[#29]
Is this the correct address to send a Form 1?
National Firearms Act Branch Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms & Explosives Washington DC 20226 |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/2/2007 1:26:46 PM EDT
[#30]
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/2/2007 3:00:51 PM EDT
[#31]
Oh....Thank you. Thank you. Thank You. Thank you!!!!  ETA: Is to ok to fold the forms? |
||
|
|
|
Posted: 2/2/2007 5:39:19 PM EDT
[#32]
I send mine flat. Your approved form will come folded in a business sized envelope. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/3/2007 9:22:36 PM EDT
[#33]
With regards to the forms and the trust.....do I need to send a copy of the notairzed trust to the ATF along with my form 4's? If I do do I send a copy or the original notarized trust?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/4/2007 12:10:29 AM EDT
[#34]
You just need to send a copy of the "Certification of Trust". I sent a notorized version so if they want to get touchy feely with the notary stamp they can.
Are you using Quicken Willmaker? If so theres a selection to make the cert. It has less personal info, but certifies that you have a trust setup and are the grantor and trustee. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/4/2007 5:50:07 AM EDT
[#35]
Never send the original notarized trust (Declaration of Trust). That goes in a safe place with your passport, ATF paperwork, etc. You can send a copy of your Declaration of Trust if you want. Better yet, send a copy of your Certification of Trust, as mentioned above. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/4/2007 6:40:24 AM EDT
[#36]
Just out of curiosity, where did you hear this? You can make as many original certification of trusts as you want. Many places (perhaps other than the BATFE) will require original certification of trusts. |
||
|
|
|
Posted: 2/4/2007 9:26:09 AM EDT
[#37]
That would be correct. You can make as many original certs of trust, but once you tell willmaker you have signed, it will print a copy with watermark on the declaration. Your Declaration of Trust should be somewhere safe. Think you my be confusing the cert and declaration. BATFE doesnt really need all the info in the trust. They just need the cert showing that you are the trustee/grantor. |
|||
|
|
|
Posted: 2/4/2007 9:27:16 AM EDT
[#38]
Where did I hear what?
That's true. They also need to be notarized, which is a minor hassle, and a minor expense (for many of us).
BATFE appears to be just fine with a copy. |
|||
|
|
|
Posted: 2/4/2007 10:52:52 AM EDT
[#39]
How is the background of a Trust Grantor/Trustee submitting forms on behalf of entity checked with no CLEO sig, no prints, and no photo provided to BATF&E? When the approved F4 is received by a C2/3 dealer is a 4473 NICS check/approval required for a Corp/Trust transfer on the Officer/Trustee taking possession on behalf of the entity? |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/4/2007 3:03:55 PM EDT
[#40]
Not sure if this is what you mean or are looking for. When you pick up your receiver you still do the NICS check and its in your name. Then when you set up the Trust the receiver is property of the Trust. It seems odd to me too, but its been working. I would think the ATF can figure out who you are by the info given on a Form 1. Not to mention the Form 1 has the serial # on it and thats on the 4473 also. The 4473 has even more info on you. My situation involved me ordering the parts for a AR-pistol. Now when my lower was shipped to my FFL it still have the stock on it. I took the stock off before putting it together of course. Filled out the 4473 and got the Form 1 and filled it out. Ordered fingerprint cards and was preparing to talk to the CLEO. I then kept reading about the Trust route and decided I didnt want the CLEO to know my business. So I set up the Trust in about 15 minutes. This whole process has one hell of a paper trail. Thats all I know. |
||
|
|
|
Posted: 2/4/2007 8:04:17 PM EDT
[#41]
WHITE_WOLFE thanks for the reply but it does not answer my questions exactly. My questions are directed more towards a Form 4 transfer involving a licensed dealer. When the dealer receives an approved form 4 from BATF&E on an individual transfer of an NFA item no NICS check is required. Does this still apply to Trust transfers or does the dealer have to call in for a NICS approval on the Trustee taking possession of said NFA item given no cleo sig, prints, or photo were provided? The background check question also applies to Form 1's involving a Trust however the obvious lack of dealer negates the 4473/NICS check.
 |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/8/2007 8:47:41 AM EDT
[#42]
I didnt read the whole thirty pages here but allow me to ask this. If I set up a trust and wish to have a SBR, what steps do I follow? I already have a SBR Form 1 from 6 years ago and hated going through that BS.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/8/2007 10:28:57 AM EDT
[#43]
OK, so no one has found out for sure how many trustees we can have?
My situation: I am married, with a 13 year old and a 3 year old son. What I want: I want to set up a trust so that, right now, my wife can have unrestricted access to my safe and future NFA items. When each of my sons turn of legal NFA possession age, I want them to be able to have the same access. In other words, 18 years from now, any of the four of us will be able to take out an SBR, or can, or whatever without having anyone else in the trust around. Right now, my wife and I should be able to. The way I read the NFA possession laws and trusts so far, I don't think there is anything against naming my underage sons as trustees, except that they are still subject to the age limits of NFA and simply will be unable to have true possession of anything until they come of age. When they hit their 21st birthday, it should be automatic... just like a felon could be a part of the trust but not be allowed to use the NFA items. Has anyone done what I want to do? |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/8/2007 10:44:35 AM EDT
[#44]
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=17&t=212799
In the link above the NFA age restrictions are discussed in a letter from the BATF&E to JPratt06. That age being 18 yrs. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/9/2007 2:29:08 PM EDT
[#45]
if you want more than 1 person to be able to raid your gun safe at will and take whatever nfa thing in there is down to the range you need a corporation. you then make whoever you want an officer of the company and then they have posession rights. a trust only allows for ownership of things of one person and if that perosn dies the ownership is transferred. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/10/2007 4:08:46 PM EDT
[#46]
I dont see why you couldnt go with a joint AB Trust. I have not done a joint type trust, but in relation to making sure your son gets the SBR there is an option in Quicken Willmaker where you can assign someone to keep certain items in the trust till your son turns 18 or 21. Trust was fine with me. My wife doesnt even like my soon to be SBR. If she ever wants to shoot it thats fine too, as long as I am with her. Heres an example from Quicken Willmaker on AB Trusts: Part 1. Trust Name This trust shall be known as the Richard Jenkins and Patricia Jenkins AB Living Trust. Part 2. Declaration of Trust Richard Jenkins and Patricia Jenkins, called the grantors, declare that they have set aside and hold in this trust all their interest in the property described in the attached Schedules A, B and C. All of that property is called the "trust property." The trustees acknowledge receipt of the trust property and agree to hold it in trust, according to this Declaration of Trust. The trust property shall be used for the benefit of the trust beneficiaries and shall be administered and distributed by the trustees in accordance with this Declaration of Trust. The term "this Declaration of Trust" includes any provisions added by valid amendment. Part 3. Character of Trust Property While both grantors are alive, property transferred to this trust shall retain its original character as community or separate property, as the case may be. If the trust is revoked, the trustee shall distribute the trust property to the grantors based on the same ownership rights they had before the property was held in trust. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/11/2007 6:00:03 AM EDT
[#47]
The thing is that I haven't seen any authorative information... i.e. "I tried to do this but my lawyer in real estate law said that the maximum number of trustees you can have is two."
I posted on a legal advice board and, without talking to an actual lawyer, no one has come up with the "you can't do that" argument, it always goes back to "why in the world would you want the mess of having that many people in charge of a trust???" Of course I'm not going into specifics with them because I doubt the general public would be as helpful if they knew my reasons. But honestly, what I'm trying to do doesn't make any senes to anyone outside of this specific set of circumstances, as I can't think of any other titled item that mere possession by anyone other than the title owner is a felony. I want more than an A/B trust because I have a large safe that is/will be open to all members of my immediate family... I keep more than just guns in there. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/14/2007 10:44:58 AM EDT
[#48]
OK.
I have set up my Living Revocable Trust through Willmaker 2007. It is the "John Henry Doe and Jane Mary Doe Living Revocable Trust". My wife and I are both trustees. I had the Declaration of the Trust as well as two copies of the Certification notarized today. So now, I send the following to the ATF 2 copies of Form 1 1 copy of notarized Certification of Trust $200 check Am I missing anything? Thanks |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/14/2007 12:26:56 PM EDT
[#49]
You should include a Certification of Compliance form. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/14/2007 1:24:02 PM EDT
[#50]
I thought that the CoC was not a necessity for a corporation or trust as the "legal entity" would not have a citizenship. Admittedly, I've just begun researching NFA toys and I did read all thirty pages so I might have gotten mixed up. |
||
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
