Setting up Trust for NFA items - Page 17

Armory » General NFA Questions

Site Notices

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Setting up Trust for NFA items (Page 17 of 27)

Posted: 4/2/2007 4:28:26 PM EDT

[#1]

how do you print certification of trust in willmaker?

after looking for about 45 minutes, I finally found it. but thanks

Posted: 4/4/2007 10:03:55 AM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
how do you print certification of trust in willmaker?

after looking for about 45 minutes, I finally found it. but thanks

I'm still looking...any hints?

ETA....Never mind...I found it.

Posted: 4/12/2007 11:41:24 AM EDT

[#3]

Wow. Signed my Form 4 on 3/29, mailed on 3/30. Approved on 4/10 and back to my dealer on 4/12. Pretty amazing.

ATF get's kudo's from me!!!

Posted: 4/15/2007 8:00:22 PM EDT

[#4]

Can I set up a corporation for me and one other person to purchase NFA items?

Also, if I live in a non-nfa friendly state, can I set up a Corporation in a state that is NFA friendly as long as I have a residence/place of business/safe storage facility?

Can Corporations purchase Title 1 firearms!?

Posted: 4/15/2007 10:56:35 PM EDT

[#5]

This thread is making my head spin. For what is probably the 20th time:

Under a Revocable Trust where I am named as the Grantor and my wife is named as the beneficiary can she open up the safe and take the NFA goodies out to ID and have a good time in my absence?

Under an Irrevocable Trust would she gain this ability? I really have no desire to set up a corporation unless I can come up with more than 5 officers from my immediate family.

Posted: 4/16/2007 4:21:26 AM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
This thread is making my head spin. For what is probably the 20th time:

Under a Revocable Trust where I am named as the Grantor and my wife is named as the beneficiary can she open up the safe and take the NFA goodies out to ID and have a good time in my absence?

Under an Irrevocable Trust would she gain this ability? I really have no desire to set up a corporation unless I can come up with more than 5 officers from my immediate family.

It is my understanding that no, The beneficiary is not the owner until your death so they can not play with out you in their presence. This is where the corp and LLC shines over the trust route if one wants several people to have full unsupervised access.

As far as Revocable versus Irrevocable, you can't do an Irrevocable Trust unless you already owned the nfa item, as you can not add to the irrevocable trust.

You use a Revocable trust to get the approval (tax stamp) to purchase from the ATF. Then after you take possesion of the NFA item, you have to add that item to a schedule A of the Revocable Living Trust, you can't do that with an irrevocable one.

At least, that's the way I understand it, but I'm no lawyer.

Posted: 4/16/2007 5:10:50 AM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:

Quoted:
This thread is making my head spin. For what is probably the 20th time:

Under a Revocable Trust where I am named as the Grantor and my wife is named as the beneficiary can she open up the safe and take the NFA goodies out to ID and have a good time in my absence?

Under an Irrevocable Trust would she gain this ability? I really have no desire to set up a corporation unless I can come up with more than 5 officers from my immediate family.

It is my understanding that no, The beneficiary is not the owner until your death so they can not play with out you in their presence. This is where the corp and LLC shines over the trust route if one wants several people to have full unsupervised access.

As far as Revocable versus Irrevocable, you can't do an Irrevocable Trust unless you already owned the nfa item, as you can not add to the irrevocable trust.

You use a Revocable trust to get the approval (tax stamp) to purchase from the ATF. Then after you take possesion of the NFA item, you have to add that item to a schedule A of the Revocable Living Trust, you can't do that with an irrevocable one.

At least, that's the way I understand it, but I'm no lawyer.

Thanks Stump!

What you are saying makes perfect sense. That is the same conclusion that I came to on all points as I was going to bed last night. The trust is a damn good way to easily do what should not be a difficult task.

Awesome thread!

ETA: So doesn't it stand to reason that you could acquire NFA items using a Revocable Trust then transfer everything over to an Irrevocable Trust and both the Grantor and Beneficiary may use the NFA item? Or is it the case that even with an Irrevocable Trust that only one person is entitled to whatever assets are assigned to that trust? My understanding is that once an irrevocable trust is executed the assets transfer ownership from the Grantor to the Beneficiary. That's why when the Grantor of a Revocable Trust dies the Trust converts to an Irrevocable Trust which transfers the ownership to the Beneficiary.

Posted: 4/16/2007 2:04:08 PM EDT

[#8]

nevermind....figured it out

Posted: 4/18/2007 1:59:08 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I did a little pencil rubbing over the raised seal. Even though it isn't perfect, it should do. Better than nothing.

One other question about the form 1. Even though I am setting up a trust and only need to fill out the front side of form 1, does the back side need to be printed out at all? Will they accept a printed PDF without the back side printed on it?

Thanks

I dont know what they require when there is nothing on the back side, but I would assume since the online PDF instructions say you have to submit the form front and back on one piece of paper, that is what you should do.

Does this apply to a Form 4 ?

Posted: 4/18/2007 3:02:28 PM EDT

[#10]

I have heard stories of both for a form4. Some people will fill out the back, others don't. But I would at least print the second page on the back side of the form4.

I can only tell you from 1 guy I know that filled out the back side of the form4 and got it approved. I can't tell you what will happen if you don't fill it out.

Posted: 4/22/2007 1:29:36 PM EDT

[#11]

has anybody used the software "Jian Living trust builder"??

I use a Mac computer and so far this is the only mac trust making software I can find. if anyone has used it please let me know. thanks much..

Posted: 4/22/2007 4:03:12 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
has anybody used the software "Jian Living trust builder"??

I use a Mac computer and so far this is the only mac trust making software I can find. if anyone has used it please let me know. thanks much..

No but pretty much any form should work. Quicken/NOLO is popular and easy, but it's not the only legal way of doing it.

Posted: 4/22/2007 8:30:35 PM EDT

[#13]

Tag

Posted: 4/25/2007 9:16:10 AM EDT

[#14]

After reading for hours on here I bought willmaker. Can someone who's btdt post a bogus trust as a guide, so dumbass's like me have a visual aid.

There are several options for trusts in willmaker, it would definately clear things up. And maybe cut down on the questions.

Thanks

Posted: 4/25/2007 9:41:19 AM EDT

[#15]

There were demos posted here and the BATF sample forms are on page 31

Posted: 4/26/2007 4:17:39 AM EDT

[#16]

To do the living trust from Willmaker, will I have to use legal size paper in my printer?

Posted: 4/26/2007 4:37:05 AM EDT

[#17]

Nope, just standard 8.5 x 11

Posted: 4/27/2007 6:10:19 AM EDT

[#18]

Ok...I don't have time to read every post. How do I go back and change things if I need to change a person later or add an item.

Posted: 4/27/2007 6:43:59 AM EDT

[#19]

As far as adding items, you just have to fill out a schedule A in the wilmaker software. The program will walk you through it once you tell it you want to add items to it the trust.

As far as editing persons, the program should walk you through that as well. I haven't had to do that, so ne experience there.

The software is very simple, and will actually walk you through almost anything you want to do to it.

Posted: 4/27/2007 7:13:42 AM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
As far as adding items, you just have to fill out a schedule A in the wilmaker software. The program will walk you through it once you tell it you want to add items to it the trust.

As far as editing persons, the program should walk you through that as well. I haven't had to do that, so ne experience there.

The software is very simple, and will actually walk you through almost anything you want to do to it.

I figured out what I asked now I am curious about the assignment of property. Doesn't it add the items you list in the dec. of trust in there too and, if so, how do u amend that since that's what shows the date and also another notarized sheet?

Posted: 4/27/2007 7:49:55 AM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:

Quoted:
As far as adding items, you just have to fill out a schedule A in the wilmaker software. The program will walk you through it once you tell it you want to add items to it the trust.

As far as editing persons, the program should walk you through that as well. I haven't had to do that, so ne experience there.

The software is very simple, and will actually walk you through almost anything you want to do to it.

I figured out what I asked now I am curious about the assignment of property. Doesn't it add the items you list in the dec. of trust in there too and, if so, how do u amend that since that's what shows the date and also another notarized sheet?

When you add items to the trust, they do not show up on the Declaration of Trust. All added items show up on the Schedule A. This schedule A does not require a signature or notary. Just attach the Schedule A to the original Declaration of Trust.

Posted: 4/27/2007 9:17:38 AM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:

Quoted:
As far as adding items, you just have to fill out a schedule A in the wilmaker software. The program will walk you through it once you tell it you want to add items to it the trust.

As far as editing persons, the program should walk you through that as well. I haven't had to do that, so ne experience there.

The software is very simple, and will actually walk you through almost anything you want to do to it.

I figured out what I asked now I am curious about the assignment of property. Doesn't it add the items you list in the dec. of trust in there too and, if so, how do u amend that since that's what shows the date and also another notarized sheet?

When you add items to the trust, they do not show up on the Declaration of Trust. All added items show up on the Schedule A. This schedule A does not require a signature or notary. Just attach the Schedule A to the original Declaration of Trust.

Blah...I just realized that the assignment of property at the end is not notarized or anything.

Posted: 4/30/2007 8:45:31 AM EDT

[#23]

So if one wants to buy an SBR upper and use an existing lower, does the serial number for the Form come from the lower? Is this a form 1 or 4 situation? Have you "created" an SBR once you mate the upper to the intended lower, or is the SBR already "created" and just needs to be transferred?

Also, if the intent is to obtain a new SBR that will also use a suppressor, are 2 separate stamps required: 1 to register the SBR, and a separate one for the suppressor?

Posted: 4/30/2007 8:47:38 AM EDT

[#24]

So if one wants to buy an SBR upper and use an existing lower, does the serial number for the Form come from the lower? Is this a form 1 or 4 situation? Have you "created" an SBR once you mate the upper to the intended lower, or is the SBR already "created" and just needs to be transferred?

Also, if the intent is to obtain a new SBR that will also use a suppressor, are 2 separate stamps required: 1 to register the SBR, and a separate one for the suppressor?

Posted: 4/30/2007 10:49:13 AM EDT

[#25]

with a trust + Form1 (for SBR), is it still required to get CLEO to signoff that SBR is legal in your state? or can I just leave all of that blank (section 13)

Posted: 4/30/2007 2:50:13 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
with a trust + Form1 (for SBR), is it still required to get CLEO to signoff that SBR is legal in your state? or can I just leave all of that blank (section 13)

With a trust, the CLEO has zip to do with anything. So yes, it is left blank as it is not needed.

Posted: 4/30/2007 2:53:11 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
So if one wants to buy an SBR upper and use an existing lower, does the serial number for the Form come from the lower? Is this a form 1 or 4 situation? Have you "created" an SBR once you mate the upper to the intended lower, or is the SBR already "created" and just needs to be transferred?

Also, if the intent is to obtain a new SBR that will also use a suppressor, are 2 separate stamps required: 1 to register the SBR, and a separate one for the suppressor?

You must frist acquire the Form 1 for the SBR stamp before you put the SBR upper on the lower. In fact, legally it could wishy washy if you even own an SBR upper before you have the stamp for the lower.

The serial number on the lower is what is used on the Form 1 to make an SBR.

If you want a suppressor on a SBR, you will need two stamps, one from a Form 1, and then one from a Form 4.

Posted: 5/2/2007 9:18:00 PM EDT

[#28]

alright i just got willmaker and am about to setup a trust. I was going to try and make it where my mom and soon to be wife could be in possession of them if i wasnt present, but have decided to make a simple one. If i have it secured where neither of them know my safe combination or location will they be okay from getting in trouble with me not being present.

Posted: 5/12/2007 4:36:31 PM EDT

[#29]

is there a sample trust posted anyplace for this? I have a Mac and the only software available is Jian living trust and it is not really mac compatible just has a few Microsoft office templates. I want to get the ball rolling asap but not sure that it is set up right. if anyone can post or email me a sample trust (privacy edited of course) I would be most appreciated. thanks.

Posted: 5/12/2007 5:21:20 PM EDT

[#30]

Sample forms are on page 31.

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=17&t=199942&page=31

Posted: 5/13/2007 9:19:13 AM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
wow..31 pages and all the mis-information that is floating around is amazing.

+1. I have three NFA items on my Trust. It works. Man someone needs to write and FAQ.

Posted: 5/17/2007 1:25:48 PM EDT

[#32]

I ain't reading 34 pages........

Can someone summerize??

Posted: 5/17/2007 1:49:27 PM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:
I ain't reading 34 pages........

Can someone summerize??

To Process a Form-4

1. Go to a Lawyer, and have a Revocable Trust written up (make sure they notorize it)

2. Buy a class-3 Item

3. Send the ATF your paperwork:
- 2 Form-4's
- 1 copy of your Trust
- 1 check or Money Order for $200
The Form 4 format should follow a Corp transfer...Your Trust is the "Corporation" You sign and date the back. Fill out everything as you would a private transfer, but instead of your name...you use the Trust's name. No LEO signature needed.

4. Wait for approval

Most everything you'll NEED to know is on the first few pages of this thread.
I can not imagine why there's over 10 pages

Posted: 5/17/2007 2:04:39 PM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I ain't reading 34 pages........

Can someone summerize??

To Process a Form-4

1. Go to a Lawyer, and have a Revocable Trust written up (make sure they notorize it)

2. Buy a class-3 Item

3. Send the ATF your paperwork:
- 2 Form-4's
- 1 copy of your Trust
- 1 check or Money Order for $200
The Form 4 format should follow a Corp transfer...Your Trust is the "Corporation" You sign and date the back. Fill out everything as you would a private transfer, but instead of your name...you use the Trust's name. No LEO signature needed.

4. Wait for approval

Most everything you'll NEED to know is on the first few pages of this thread.
I can not imagine why there's over 10 pages

ALso to add, you DONT need fingerprint card, CLEO sign off or photo when going the Trust/Corp route.

As to why this is many pages. ya got me. I guess everyone wants to play lawyer and make things WAY more complicated than need be.

Posted: 5/21/2007 12:13:20 PM EDT

[#35]

What if I want to register an existing lower through the trust route for an sbr. I need to transef ownership of the lower to the trust and fill out a form 1?

Posted: 5/21/2007 12:15:31 PM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:
What if I want to register an existing lower through the trust route for an sbr. I need to transef ownership of the lower to the trust and fill out a form 1?

Correct.

Posted: 5/21/2007 1:11:09 PM EDT

[#37]

I took this from the Form-4 post..and changed it up a bit, it reflects the process I followed to get my Form-1 approved for my SBR project.

To Process a Form-1

1. Go to a Lawyer/Willmaker, and have or write a Revocable Trust.

1.5. Get your trust notorized, Get your CERTIFICATION OF TRUST NOTORIZED as well, makes copies of your Certification of Trust, (you will need those later for the ATF) put the originals in a safe place!

2. Fill out your Form-1 based upon the particulars (length, caliber, s/n) of weapon you are building (eg. SBR)

3. Send the ATF your paperwork:

- 2 Form-1's (MUST BE DOUBLE SIDED..printed on both sides)
- 1 copy of your CERTIFICATION OF TRUST
- 1 check or Money Order for $200

Fill out everything as you would a private transfer, but instead of your name...you use the Trust's name. No LEO signature/Fingerprints/Picture needed.

4. Wait for approval

5. Once you are approved, get your lower engraved and you are good to go.

6. Make a copy of your approved Form-1, put it with your firearm, put the original in a safe place.

Posted: 5/21/2007 2:25:52 PM EDT

[#38]

I did my best to read though some of the last 34 pages, but can't find anywhere why the trust can only have 2 people contained within the entity - can anyone explain this - I'd really like to put 4 in?

Posted: 5/21/2007 2:42:43 PM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:
I did my best to read though some of the last 34 pages, but can't find anywhere why the trust can only have 2 people contained within the entity - can anyone explain this - I'd really like to put 4 in?

You can have four, it's just that the software most people use (Quicken WillMaker) only have provision's for two. Export the document and add the two extra in.

Posted: 5/21/2007 7:04:29 PM EDT

[#40]

Can I create a new trust ?

I did the trust route last year with Willmaker,but my computer crashed a few months ago with all of the trust info. I still got the original Declaration and Cert. trust copies with notarized. I got 3 NFA items in the current trust.

My question is can I create the new trust with the Willmaker,but it will date as today date with all the update info. I'm ready to send in another foam 4 . Should I send the foam with the current trust that I did last year or should I make the new trust with new software and all the update info. I just want it legal and don't want any trouble in the future.

Thanks for all the advise.

Posted: 5/22/2007 3:23:18 AM EDT

[#41]

1MoreAR, If you already have your Trust notarized, you don't need to make another one. Just update your Schedule A with the new CIII stuff. If you need fresh copies or need to make changes to it just re-enter your info, export the document, make the changes manually and print again. I formatted mine so all of my Notarized stuff was on the last sheet that way I can make changes easier.

ETA: I have two Trust's under two different names and it's a pain in the ass. Stick with one, it's easier and more convenient.

Posted: 5/22/2007 9:20:37 AM EDT

[#42]

height=8

Quoted:
I took this from the Form-4 post..and changed it up a bit, it reflects the process I followed to get my Form-1 approved for my SBR project.

To Process a Form-1

1. Go to a Lawyer/Willmaker, and have or write a Revocable Trust.

1.5. Get your trust notorized, Get your CERTIFICATION OF TRUST NOTORIZED as well, makes copies of your Certification of Trust, (you will need those later for the ATF) put the originals in a safe place!

2. Fill out your Form-1 based upon the particulars (length, caliber, s/n) of weapon you are building (eg. SBR)

3. Send the ATF your paperwork:

- 2 Form-1's (MUST BE DOUBLE SIDED..printed on both sides)
- 1 copy of your CERTIFICATION OF TRUST
- 1 check or Money Order for $200

Fill out everything as you would a private transfer, but instead of your name...you use the Trust's name. No LEO signature/Fingerprints/Picture needed.

4. Wait for approval

5. Once you are approved, get your lower engraved and you are good to go.

6. Make a copy of your approved Form-1, put it with your firearm, put the original in a safe place.

That's what I figured, thanks for the response. This may be another dumb question, but how do I transfer ownership of something to a trust (like a lower I already own)? Is it as simple as entering the info into quicken will maker?

Posted: 5/22/2007 2:26:45 PM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:
1MoreAR, If you already have your Trust notarized, you don't need to make another one. Just update your Schedule A with the new CIII stuff. If you need fresh copies or need to make changes to it just re-enter your info, export the document, make the changes manually and print again. I formatted mine so all of my Notarized stuff was on the last sheet that way I can make changes easier.

ETA: I have two Trust's under two different names and it's a pain in the ass. Stick with one, it's easier and more convenient.

Thanks orionmkii, I lost all the info that was save on my old computer. I think I will have to do another trust with the same name, change status from single to married and add my wife as the successor.

Posted: 5/22/2007 3:03:00 PM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:
Thanks orionmkii, I lost all the info that was save on my old computer. I think I will have to do another trust with the same name, change status from single to married and add my wife as the successor.

My pleasure. That's what makes a Living Trust so great. Adding your wife as a Trustee and/or beneficiary is a piece of cake.

Posted: 5/24/2007 4:31:13 AM EDT

[#45]

Remember that a corp gives some liability protection. If someone sues you your lawyer can show how the corp owns the gun, and they will have to sue the corp and it is harder to get your house, etc.

I think that protection might be sort of limited, since it would be obvious that the corporation is soley a tool to facilitate your acquisition or manufacture of NFA items. But it is nice to try and play something- I wouldn't rely on it.
http://dictionary.law.com/default2.asp?typed=alter+ego&type=1
http://dictionary.law.com/default2.asp?selected=1529&bold=

Posted: 5/24/2007 6:19:24 PM EDT

[#46]

Few trust ??s, My eyes are bleeding after 20 pages.

1. How does having a Trust with assets affect your taxes?

2. Does a succesor, and or Trustee have to be a relative. Meaning, can I list my girlfreind as a trustee, and leave a C3 item in her possesion?

Thanks.

Posted: 5/25/2007 10:32:14 AM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:
My eyes are bleeding after 20 pages.

You and me both. We need an FAQ that's tacked...

Quoted:1. How does having a Trust with assets affect your taxes?

I have a guess but I'll leave it to the lawyers.

Quoted:2. Does a successor, and or Trustee have to be a relative. Meaning, can I list my girlfriend as a trustee, and leave a C3 item in her possession?

Anybody can be a Trustee and Trustee's have control of the property owned by the Trust (per the Declaration of Trust). Keep in mind that she would have to eligible to be in possession of such items.

Posted: 5/27/2007 12:05:34 PM EDT

[#48]

Orion- You seem like you have an intimate knowledge of the Trust for NFA system, and your a fellow Subject of Connecticut.

I'm working up a trust right now

and I'm looking forward to gettin' down with my first project soon.

Can I do suppressors or short barrel rifles wih my trust in Connecticut? The statute leaves me a little perplexed, but I can definetely see it being legal, but there seems to be little bit of a gray area.

If an individual is the trustee of a trustee of a trust, he has a legal right to physically posess the property so contained in the trust, ergo it's legal under federal law and looks like it should be legal under state law. However, in section B only "person's, firms, corporations, or museums licensed or otherwise permitted by federal or state law
to posess, own, or control..." The legal owner according to the Form 1 would be the trust. However the statute does not say trust as being an entity specifically allowed under state law in the exemption section. Is a trust ok under form or corporation?

Posted: 5/27/2007 6:03:01 PM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:
Orion- You seem like you have an intimate knowledge of the Trust for NFA system, and your a fellow Subject of Connecticut.

It's comforting having 'comrades' trapped behind enemy lines with you.

Quoted:I'm working up a trust right now

and I'm looking forward to gettin' down with my first project soon.

Can I do suppressors or short barrel rifles with my trust in Connecticut? The statute leaves me a little perplexed, but I can definitely see it being legal, but there seems to be little bit of a gray area.

Yes you can. ...or otherwise permitted by federal law... I have two SBR's and one suppressor on my Trust (and an MG too). CT pretty much defers to Federal law with the class three stuff.

Posted: 5/27/2007 6:13:21 PM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:

Quoted:
This thread is making my head spin. For what is probably the 20th time:

Under a Revocable Trust where I am named as the Grantor and my wife is named as the beneficiary can she open up the safe and take the NFA goodies out to ID and have a good time in my absence?

Under an Irrevocable Trust would she gain this ability? I really have no desire to set up a corporation unless I can come up with more than 5 officers from my immediate family.

It is my understanding that no, The beneficiary is not the owner until your death so they can not play with out you in their presence. This is where the corp and LLC shines over the trust route if one wants several people to have full unsupervised access.

As far as Revocable versus Irrevocable, you can't do an Irrevocable Trust unless you already owned the nfa item, as you can not add to the irrevocable trust.

You use a Revocable trust to get the approval (tax stamp) to purchase from the ATF. Then after you take possesion of the NFA item, you have to add that item to a schedule A of the Revocable Living Trust, you can't do that with an irrevocable one.

At least, that's the way I understand it, but I'm no lawyer.

I swore I woudn't post in this thread again, because of the serious amount of misinformation passed along by non-lawyers .... but .... just about everything you said is wrong.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Setting up Trust for NFA items (Page 17 of 27)

Armory » General NFA Questions

Warning

Confirm Action

About AR15.COM

Stay Connected

Newsletter

Contact Us