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Posted: 2/19/2023 12:32:39 AM EDT
I volunteered to research this topic for a club I help instruct for.  I have been out of the loop for about 10 years.  We need a few club guns, mostly to help with entry level shooters (we progress them to small bore quickly) - but we also allow the kids to check them out for competitions (invitationals, state, and occasionally nationals - but I don't know when we will have any kids shooting on the Texas team again any time soon).

I have 4 that have shot good enough for my kids at State - but 3 of those 4 are way out of favor now.  I have a highly modified Crosman pump - it worked good for Silhouette competition.  It would not make a good club gun because it required a lot of care to keep it running well.  A Crosman CO2 did well, but people do not understand how you have to treat them when shooting outside in the Texas summer (Crosman does ok, as it has a heavy firing spring - competition CO2 guns however can easily pressure lock when they get hot and the firing spring can no longer open the valve.  I also have a Crosman target PCP and an Alpha Proj PCP (the price of which has gone through the roof since I got it).

Daisy made a good SSP for club use, but it has been discontinued and we can not even get parts for our club guns anymore.  For competition we had IZH 46's, (discontinued, but a revised version lives on as Air Venturi).  The Crosman PCP is cheaper, but not so much so (after you put target sights on it).  But the IZH can have an advantage as the kids don't need to have recharge equipment on trips.  The cheaper Air Venturi is banned from competition - it is viewed as inherently unsafe do to it being hard to charge without waving the barrel around.
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Just curious what the hive thinks about 10m air pistols.  Personally, if there was not so much hate for CO2 guns, to me they would make the most sense for our spring and summer sessions.  1/2 the price, no need for PCP air.  Worse case I could find replacement sears to get the trigger descent (I assume there is still after market sears available - I don't know if Crosman uses the better Benjamin style triggers on their target CO2 guns).  The trigger on their PCP target pistols is fine (not great, but ok - I also have a FWB target pistol (which I don't let kids use), it's trigger IS great).  I am sure, if the FWB was still made, it would also be deemed inherently unsafe - if you pull the trigger while charging it, it can bear trap, take your finger off and self destruct the pistol.


Link Posted: 2/19/2023 10:25:19 AM EDT
[#1]
Link Posted: 3/9/2023 1:27:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: tangeant] [#2]
Alfa or Hammerli AP20 , AP20 Pro. AP is what I'd get for juniors

The AP Pro is worth the extra $ for better grips and bigger air cylinder with gage.

I have a 46 and it will just plain shoot, it has a better trigger than most high end mech trigger pistols.

Have you looked at CMP club sales program for air pistols ? They do a deal through Pyramid for Alfa pistols.
Link Posted: 3/22/2023 6:09:01 AM EDT
[#3]
Just a belated update...

Crossman are not available currently (kind of stupid, given it is American made).  IZH 46M are (surprising since they are Russian made) - Air Venturi is importing them.  I have an Alpha Proj (Czech made, maybe even part of CZ firearms) personally (along with a Crossman and a FWB (probably banned due to bear trapping), but WOW the prices have gone up on the Alpha's.  National rules for our org seem to be political, but barrel cock pistols have at least in part been deemed inherently unsafe (the barrel is rotated all over, including behind the firing line).  Our clubs Daisy are apparently mostly working, we have 3 IZH (and several instructor owned - which is the current political issue).  I was told to get one more IZH for Silhouette competition.  Pistol will be here Monday - but the scope mount is harder to source.  I also picked up one for my kids (scope mount not withstanding).

One final note - apparently the Russian company that makes/made the IZH/Bical/Air Vanturi is Alpha (a Russian company).  Way too confusing to keep track of.
Link Posted: 3/22/2023 7:00:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Bladeswitcher] [#4]
Originally Posted By mousehunter:
Personally, if there was not so much hate for CO2 guns, to me they would make the most sense for our spring and summer sessions.  1/2 the price, no need for PCP air.  Worse case I could find replacement sears to get the trigger descent . . .  I also have a FWB target pistol (which I don't let kids use), it's trigger IS great).  I am sure, if the FWB was still made, it would also be deemed inherently unsafe - if you pull the trigger while charging it, it can bear trap, take your finger off and self destruct the pistol.

View Quote


Yep, Co2 is a great option if all you want to do is shoot in the basement. I doubt the out-of-certification gas tanks would fly at a sanctioned competition, however.

There are many Co2 pistols. This one is mine:

Link Posted: 3/22/2023 7:10:35 AM EDT
[#5]
I've not shot one personally, but I've heard good things about the Beeman P17. It's a Chinese made copy of the single-stroke pneumatic Beeman P3. They cost less than $50 each and are supposed to a decent.

https://www.pyramydair.com/product/beeman-p17?m=614
Link Posted: 3/23/2023 8:46:15 PM EDT
[#6]
while the P17 was not specifically listed, 2 other barrel cocking pistols were specifically banned at 4H national competition.  The reason, not specifically mentioned other than they were described as inherently unsafe.  I think it is due to the process of charging a barrel cocking pistol sweeps the barrel about 135 degrees, which unless you are insanely careful will cause the barrel to point behind the firing line.  Of course it can not shoot at this point, but it breaks a rule about keeping the muzzle pointed in a safe direction.  You could add to it, that the barrel is loaded before the pistol is charged - so it is also a loaded barrel being pointed in many directions.  

While all that is mostly political bullshit - I can see how cocking with the barrel could violate safe muzzle direction rules.  Just not now it is inherently unsafe as it can not fire when the barrel is not in battery.
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I have never let my kids shoot my FWB (mostly because finding repair parts is virtually impossible) - but the spring air pistol/rifles can bear trap.  The anti-bear trap mechanism is only a disposable part (it generally is destroyed if used).
Link Posted: 3/23/2023 8:53:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: mousehunter] [#7]
CO2 has gotten a bad rap in Texas 4H.  We used to (and might still) shoot our State Games outdoors - generally during the hottest week of summer.  My crossman never had an issue with this, as it had a fairly stiff hammer spring.  But gamers must be gamers, and a lot of kids got Rhoms (pardon the spelling) for rapid fire competition.  Rhoms had a much lighter hammer spring, and the increased cartridge pressure would cost them to lock up when shot at high temperatures outdoors.  I did have my Tau lock up once, but only because I had over charged it.

Ultimately, rather than just have the kids use crossmans (which is exactly the gun that was originally intended to be used - hell I think crossman originally donated the pistols) they eventually cancelled the event.  But the net result was a lot of instructors hating CO2 guns.  The crossman were not match grade - but they could easily keep it in the 10 ring of our rapid fire targets.

I think the bigger issue with CO2 guns is cold, but that is not a Texas problem.  That said, I suspect it was a Texas problem with the Rhoms, because instructors started to tell the kids to keep their co2 on ice before the competition.  So yes, they would go from lethargic to locked out in the same competition.  Not the pistols problem, but a problem with understanding the dynamics of CO2.
Link Posted: 3/31/2023 6:58:48 PM EDT
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Bladeswitcher:
I've not shot one personally, but I've heard good things about the Beeman P17. It's a Chinese made copy of the single-stroke pneumatic Beeman P3. They cost less than $50 each and are supposed to a decent.

https://www.pyramydair.com/product/beeman-p17?m=614
View Quote


I have three of the P17's... Best value by far. One is still in the package and will keep it that way.
Great trigger and very accurate with the fiber sights. Everyone should have one of these little gems.
Link Posted: 4/4/2023 7:26:02 PM EDT
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By tangeant:
Alfa or Hammerli AP20 , AP20 Pro. AP is what I'd get for juniors

The AP Pro is worth the extra $ for better grips and bigger air cylinder with gage.

I have a 46 and it will just plain shoot, it has a better trigger than most high end mech trigger pistols.

Have you looked at CMP club sales program for air pistols ? They do a deal through Pyramid for Alfa pistols.
View Quote

Yup. AP20.
Link Posted: 8/9/2023 2:19:46 AM EDT
[#10]
FWIW, I have an Alpha as well.  Had problems with it, and it was in the shop for a year.  Then got a second PCP pistol so the kids would have one for competition while I waited.  Kind of a sad benefit of the 46 is boys.  I found one of my sons would rush too much when it was too easy to shoot.  Requiring charging between shots slows boys down.  The other not so important thing - No need to carry tanks.
Link Posted: 8/19/2023 11:18:44 AM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mousehunter:
FWIW, I have an Alpha as well.  Had problems with it, and it was in the shop for a year.  Then got a second PCP pistol so the kids would have one for competition while I waited.  Kind of a sad benefit of the 46 is boys.  I found one of my sons would rush too much when it was too easy to shoot.  Requiring charging between shots slows boys down.  The other not so important thing - No need to carry tanks.
View Quote



I've only had experience with the IZH-46.  I see the prices have gone up significantly since I got mine almost 10 years ago.  I only got rid of mine to treat myself to a Steyr LP10E.  While the Steyr is nicer in every way, my scores only went up a little and only because I was inspired to practice more with the new toy.
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