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Posted: 4/7/2024 11:26:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: ZA206]
So I bought like 1300 69 TMK’s about 18 months ago and have been dabbling with them on and off trying to find good loads with good velocities. Up until this point, I’ve had a fairly low opinion of the bullet in my rifles. Main reason being that I wasn’t able to drive it any faster than the 77 SMK and get decent accuracy… so why bother with it? It has the same BC as the 77 SMK, costs more, is way more picky and not as accurate…
I bought 1300 of them, that’s why I’m bothering it!  As a reference point, Black Hills makes 5.56 loadings with both the 69 & 77 TMK’s. Their spec’d velocities are (20” barrel): 77 TMK = 2750 fps (I have cloned this load with XBR8208 and it’s magnificent) 69 TMK = 2875 fps (what I’m hoping to clone) These targets were shot @ 100 yards with my 20” AR15 with a 1-7.7 twist 4-groove Bartlein barrel with CLE chamber finished by CLE. Anyway… here are some of my trials, with the best ones towards the end.  Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 4/7/2024 11:39:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: ZA206]
[#1]
Here are the ones I shot today… AR-Comp at 23.2 gr has me hopeful! Going to do more work on it. It’s got the velocity, accuracy and SD that I wanted. N133 did a great job, but the rifle was short stroking occasionally with that powder.
 Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 4/8/2024 12:29:30 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ZA206: Here are the ones I shot today AR-Comp at 23.2 gr has me hopeful! Going to do more work on it. It's got the velocity, accuracy and SD that I wanted. N133 did a great job, but the rifle was short stroking occasionally with that powder. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/114221/IMG_3288_jpeg-3181743.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/114221/IMG_3287_jpeg-3181742.JPG I always like the real targets, no computer lines and stuff. |
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Posted: 4/8/2024 6:01:38 AM EDT
[#3]
I was able to string together my nicest groups with the 69 tmk’s with just over the max load of benchmark, out of a 10.5” vseven stainless barrel. Ran out of them and am now going down the light bullet rabbit hole to try to get some velocity back with the exception of some 77 gr match burners. I recently found lt30 powder to be extremely accurate behind 50gr vmax, 53gr bthp, as well as the match burners. I bet it would do excellent accuracy wise with the tmk’s. May have to buy some more to try out. Seems like they also did well with n540.
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Posted: 4/8/2024 12:16:54 PM EDT
[#4]
I laughed at that 24.5 grain Varget load. That has always been an amazing load with the 69 SMK.
That could be developed further. Amazing group! |
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SD, USA
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Posted: 4/8/2024 3:35:39 PM EDT
[#5]
I'm kinda in the same boat, from a different angle. Wound up with a bunch of 69 TMKs cheap, and 5.56+69 tmk has about the same internal volume coefficient and expansion ratio as a .338-06 with a 225 SPFB.
Everything I've been finding is been the traditional middle-middle powders or even slightly middle-fast powders. Given the similarities, and the luck I've been having with the .338-06 and going middle-slow powders, I've been plotting out that route using RL16, CFE223, RL17, imr4350, etc. They seem to like being pushed harder than the middle-middle powders, and should do well with a 5.56 chamber. Work accident, and being in the hospital is going to put up a bit of a roadblock, but I'll get back to it eventually. |
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Posted: 4/8/2024 8:56:39 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By carcrazysammy: I laughed at that 24.5 grain Varget load. That has always been an amazing load with the 69 SMK. That could be developed further. Amazing group! This has been my standard NRA/CMP 200/300 yard load for close to 20 years. It's easy on the brass and shoots little groups at 300 yards. Velocity in my 20" service rifle barrels is usually 2740 fps in .223 Wylde chambers. |
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Posted: 4/8/2024 9:58:41 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By carcrazysammy: I laughed at that 24.5 grain Varget load. That has always been an amazing load with the 69 SMK. That could be developed further. Amazing group! I ran out of 69 SMK’s shortly after shooting that group! I have lots and lots of 69 TMK’s tho! 
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AL, USA
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Posted: 4/9/2024 11:52:19 PM EDT
[#8]
I have had good luck with AA2230/XTerminator and 69 gr bullets. I have 200 of the 69TMKs and this is where I will start. XBR 8280 would be my next choice. It works amazing with the 77. |
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Posted: 4/10/2024 2:01:58 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By billyhill: I have had good luck with AA2230/XTerminator and 69 gr bullets. I have 200 of the 69TMKs and this is where I will start. XBR 8280 would be my next choice. It works amazing with the 77. The very first target I posted was with XBR 8208. Meh... That powder is amazing with the 77 TMK though! -ZA |
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Posted: 4/10/2024 3:46:57 PM EDT
[#10]
There is absolutely no sense in chasing the lands with light bullets in a 223 is not going make a hill of beans difference. A waste of range time and components.
Stick to the OEM suggestion COAL. The sweet sport with Sierra or Nosler 69gr OTM is plus or minus 25gr of varget. You showed some hope @ 24.5 I would move towards 25. What are you shooting off of? I think you will get better results with 50/53gr V-Max as they are bevel base; whereas the 55gr is flat based more mean for slower twist barrels of the 22-250/220 Swift ETC. Or switch to 55gr Ballistic Tip. |
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UT, USA
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Posted: 4/10/2024 8:06:29 PM EDT
[#11]
There really isn't a good pattern in those groups. I would shoot them again with 3 shot groups. If you see a group that looks promising, try shooting a 5 or ten shot group of that load to see if it still holds together. If 8208XBR doesn't group for you, then something isn't right. Shooter, barrel, etc.
Varget gets a lot of love but even 24ish grains of TAC works well for me behind 69 grain bullets. 1/2 MOA out of my bolt gun. |
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Posted: 4/10/2024 9:12:28 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sigman68: There really isn't a good pattern in those groups. I would shoot them again with 3 shot groups. If you see a group that looks promising, try shooting a 5 or ten shot group of that load to see if it still holds together. If 8208XBR doesn't group for you, then something isn't right. Shooter, barrel, etc. Varget gets a lot of love but even 24ish grains of TAC works well for me behind 69 grain bullets. 1/2 MOA out of my bolt gun. Not shooting these or anything else with XBR. I’m holding back all of my remaining 6 lbs of it for my 77 TMK SD loads. I can’t really get any more of it, and I have lots of other powders to tinker with. |
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Posted: 4/10/2024 9:15:25 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By rn22723: There is absolutely no sense in chasing the lands with light bullets in a 223 is not going make a hill of beans difference. A waste of range time and components. Stick to the OEM suggestion COAL. The sweet sport with Sierra or Nosler 69gr OTM is plus or minus 25gr of varget. You showed some hope @ 24.5 I would move towards 25. What are you shooting off of? I think you will get better results with 50/53gr V-Max as they are bevel base; whereas the 55gr is flat based more mean for slower twist barrels of the 22-250/220 Swift ETC. Or switch to 55gr Ballistic Tip. The velocities with Varget suck, but the accuracy definitely has potential. I want both in my load with this bullet. I’ve got great loads already with other powders for the 53 & 55 VMax, but this thread is about the 69 TMK. |
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Posted: 4/10/2024 10:35:08 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ZA206: The very first target I posted was with XBR 8208. Meh... That powder is amazing with the 77 TMK though! -ZA 100%. Thanks for that info. Going to keep fine tuning that load. |
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UT, USA
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Posted: 4/18/2024 9:55:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: sigman68]
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ZA206: Not shooting these or anything else with XBR. I’m holding back all of my remaining 6 lbs of it for my 77 TMK SD loads. I can’t really get any more of it, and I have lots of other powders to tinker with. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ZA206: Originally Posted By sigman68: There really isn't a good pattern in those groups. I would shoot them again with 3 shot groups. If you see a group that looks promising, try shooting a 5 or ten shot group of that load to see if it still holds together. If 8208XBR doesn't group for you, then something isn't right. Shooter, barrel, etc. Varget gets a lot of love but even 24ish grains of TAC works well for me behind 69 grain bullets. 1/2 MOA out of my bolt gun. Not shooting these or anything else with XBR. I’m holding back all of my remaining 6 lbs of it for my 77 TMK SD loads. I can’t really get any more of it, and I have lots of other powders to tinker with. I hear you on the 8208XBR and have switched to Vihtavouri N133 and N540 until things get back to normal. N133 won't get quite the velocities as 8208 but it groups really well. |
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Posted: 4/18/2024 10:05:27 PM EDT
[#16]
I consider velocity irrelevant. If I could get my best groups at 200 fps slower than full power, I'd run with them.
My self-imposed velocity limits with 68/69 grain bullets from 20" barrels is 2750 fps, with the 75/77 grain match bullets - 2650 fps. I will accept 100 fps slower if it would get me under a half moa. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/19/2024 7:40:22 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By borderpatrol: I consider velocity irrelevant. If I could get my best groups at 200 fps slower than full power, I'd run with them. My self-imposed velocity limits with 68/69 grain bullets from 20" barrels is 2750 fps, with the 75/77 grain match bullets - 2650 fps. I will accept 100 fps slower if it would get me under a half moa. This is pretty much how i am now. I have a distance / terminal performance / acuracy requirement when i go to develop a load. If i can’t meet all of that its simply time to change calibers. If varget doesnt get you there with a 69 you are going to have a hard time reaching your goal most likely. |
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Posted: 4/19/2024 12:28:30 PM EDT
[#18]
Show us your rests and what you're doing about the wind.
A five foot tall stick with a ribbon set out at 25 yards will tell more than you believe about the breezes. 100 yards is plenty to show up as wind deflection. Use a rear bag of some sort. Use a front bag. Throw away those hard plastic rests, they're junk. This will help with the vertical dispersion that isn't caused by the wind. |
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UT, USA
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Posted: 4/19/2024 12:33:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: sigman68]
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AeroE: Show us your rests and what you're doing about the wind. A five foot tall stick with a ribbon set out at 25 yards will tell more than you believe about the breezes. 100 yards is plenty to show up as wind deflection. Use a rear bag of some sort. Use a front bag. Throw away those hard plastic rests, they're junk. This will help with the vertical dispersion that isn't caused by the wind. Listen to this man. |
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Posted: 4/19/2024 9:24:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: ZA206]
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AeroE: Show us your rests and what you're doing about the wind. A five foot tall stick with a ribbon set out at 25 yards will tell more than you believe about the breezes. 100 yards is plenty to show up as wind deflection. Use a rear bag of some sort. Use a front bag. Throw away those hard plastic rests, they're junk. This will help with the vertical dispersion that isn't caused by the wind. My standard setup… out of the bed of my truck. (Some of the first pictures in the thread were shot off a bipod or Caldwell mechanical rest). Everything I do now is off the front heavy bags and the single rear bag.  Attached File |
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Posted: 4/20/2024 9:55:37 AM EDT
[#21]
Try stacking your rear bags crossways for a more stable foundation, using one on end is too wiggly in my experience.
If you need to fiddle with the front bag stack bags in the gap. I'll carry a small fabric bag filled with beany baby guts while hunting to lay across a post or limb. |
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Posted: 4/21/2024 12:01:45 AM EDT
[#22]
Made up a seating depth test set of the 69 TMK and 23.2 of AR-Comp.
2.258”, 2.255” & 2.252” I also made up an AR-Comp ladder set with the 77 TMK… 22.0, 22.2, 22.4, 22.6 & 22.8 gr. We will see how it goes, it would be nice to have a good alternate to my XBR load with the 77 TMK. ZA |
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Posted: 4/28/2024 9:11:02 PM EDT
[#23]
From today….
The 69 TMK speeds were about 20 fps slower than my last time out at 23.2 gr. I’m going to try 23.2, 23.3 & 23.4 next time and see what it looks like. On the 77 TMK, I’m going to try 22.8, 22.9 & 23.0 next time. I think the 23.0 will get to 2750 fps and match my XBR loads. AR Comp has the lowest over all SD’s I’ve seen in 223/5.56 loadings!  Attached File |
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Posted: 4/28/2024 11:41:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: bigtex84]
[#24]
I haven’t tried the 69gr but I can’t get the 77s to shoot with any load or any match grade barrel. 1” is about all I can get with my WOA barrel with all proven good loads. The same barrels shoot 77gr mk at .5” or less. I’m a gluten for punishment so I’m going to try some 69gr lol.
I forgot my Ruger American with shoot the 77gr TMK .75” or better but none of my semi autos |
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Posted: 4/29/2024 11:38:12 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bigtex84: I haven’t tried the 69gr but I can’t get the 77s to shoot with any load or any match grade barrel. 1” is about all I can get with my WOA barrel with all proven good loads. The same barrels shoot 77gr mk at .5” or less. I’m a gluten for punishment so I’m going to try some 69gr lol. I forgot my Ruger American with shoot the 77gr TMK .75” or better but none of my semi autos If you have any XBR-8208, try that with the 77 TMK…. Load into 5.56 pressures and a COL of 2.245”. |
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