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OR, USA
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Posted: 4/13/2024 12:59:19 AM EDT
I'm working on a mini whisper based on the Tokarev case. My first attempt was 147gr projo, 4.2gr of titegroup out of an 8" AR. I got 1040FPS, silly quiet but it didn't quite cycle. Gotta move the bolt another 0.25" to get behind the brass.
I'm thinking I need a slower powder. What do you guys suggest for a slower powder but still a full burn in 8"? I'm thinking of trying AA#9 next. Hopefully still stay just under 1050FPS. Shooters World Blackout is way too slow, Gordon's says about 30% burn and uses more than 11 gr. Other suggestions? |
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Posted: 4/13/2024 3:34:07 AM EDT
[#1]
No idea, but would love to hear more about your build and how it was built!
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Posted: 4/13/2024 7:18:47 AM EDT
[#2]
CoW says for the SSK 7.63 mini-whisper; 145gr Horn FMJ, 4.5gr AA No 2 for 1025 fps, designed to cycle from a 7" bbl.
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Posted: 4/13/2024 9:14:17 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tac556: No idea, but would love to hear more about your build and how it was built! |
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OR, USA
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Posted: 4/13/2024 10:37:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Deerhurst]
[#4]
The rifle is nothing special. The upper was done by Heavy Metal Group years ago. It has a super short gas tube with an adjustable gas block. Normally it uses a magwell adapter to use PPS-43 magazines but with my mini whisper rounds I use AR mags due to OAL of the round. A couple years ago I chopped it from 16" to 8". Still ran factory ammo perfectly. It's a lot of fun. I run it with a Form 1 titanium suppressor.
 I will look into the AA#2. Maybe someone locally will have some at a palatable price. |
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Posted: 4/13/2024 10:45:05 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Deerhurst: The rifle .is nothing special. The upper was done by Heavy Metal Group years ago. It has a super short gas tube with an adjustable gas block. Normally it uses a magwell adapter to use PPS-43 magazines but with my mini whisper rounds I use AR mags due to OAL of the round. A couple years ago I chopped it from 16" to 8". Still ran factory ammo perfectly. It's a lot of fun. I run it with a Form 1 titanium suppressor. https://i.imgur.com/OScSpnQh.jpg I will look into the AA#2. Maybe someone locally will have some at a palatable price. |
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OR, USA
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Posted: 4/13/2024 6:13:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Deerhurst]
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dryflash3: Thanks for the pic and more info, hope you get it to cycle. Me too. Gordon's shows AA#2 might be slow enough to make more pressure at the port than titegroup but fast enough to be 100% burn. Looks like AA#5 and #7 are too slow and will not have complete burn in the barrel. Pretty sure I'm right on #5 but #7 is slower. Gotta check the laptop I do load dev with. Actually looking at a shotgun powder right now. More research and simulations! My gas port is about 2 inches in front of the throat of the casing. Got to look back at Gordon's. Long Shot shotgun powder looks to keep my pressures decent at the 2 inch mark. Win 231 is a close second. I believe 231 is a popular 9mm powder. I usually just use titegroup for 9mm. |
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OR, USA
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Posted: 4/14/2024 5:38:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Deerhurst]
[#7]
Wish me luck. Ended up with a OAL of 1.673 and 4.3gr of Longshot. Should put me right about 13ksi at the gas port. About 2ksi more than titegroup.
Edit: Did a few at 4.5gr of Longshot which should be about 1040FPS and another 500PSI at the gas port. Hopefully test that after work tomorrow! |
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Posted: 4/15/2024 7:22:45 AM EDT
[#8]
What are you using for projectiles?
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Posted: 4/15/2024 8:06:14 AM EDT
[#9]
Here's the load data from my 10" 7.63 Mini-Whisper (what I heard the Tok case-based "300 Blackout before there was 300BO" called) upper, also from Tim at Heavy Metal. Most of the below were 5-10 shot groups with an AAC 762-SDN-6 on the end. I also used 30 Mauser brass from Starline per the recommendation of Tim and others on his Tok Forum back in the day. The case length of the 30 Mauser case was shorter than Starline or PPU 7.62 Tok brass and better for long .308 projectiles.
I settled on 7.5gr of Lil' Gun for the 180gr RN and 7gr of Lil' Gun under a pulled 147gr FMJBT bullet. Sierra 180gr RN CCI SP OAL: 1.802" Lil' Gun 5.5gr Avg: 657 ES: 44 SD:20 Lil' Gun 6.0gr Avg: 741 ES: 61 SD: 25 Lil' Gun 6.5gr Avg: 819 ES: 31 SD: 14 Lil' Gun 7.0gr Avg: 924 ES: 54 SD: 28 Lil' Gun 7.5gr Avg: 1011 ES: 49 SD: 21 Lil' Gun 7.6gr Avg: 1013 ES: 90 SD: 25 Lil' Gun 7.6gr Avg: 1020 ES: 53 SD: 21 and with pulled surplus 147gr FMJBT projectiles CCI SP OAL: 1.787" Lil' Gun 9gr Avg: 1276 Lil' Gun 8.5gr Avg: 1209 Lil' Gun 8gr Avg: 1144 Lil' Gun 7.5gr Avg: 1060 Lil' Gun 7gr Avg: 1012 Lil' Gun 7gr Avg: 1001 Lil' Gun 7gr Avg: 978 Lil' Gun 6.5gr Avg: 895 |
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OR, USA
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Posted: 4/15/2024 8:33:50 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By towerofpower94: Here's the load data from my 10" 7.63 Mini-Whisper (what I heard the Tok case-based "300 Blackout before there was 300BO" called) upper, also from Tim at Heavy Metal. Most of the below were 5-10 shot groups with an AAC 762-SDN-6 on the end. I also used 30 Mauser brass from Starline per the recommendation of Tim and others on his Tok Forum back in the day. The case length of the 30 Mauser case was shorter than Starline or PPU 7.62 Tok brass and better for long .308 projectiles. I settled on 7.5gr of Lil' Gun for the 180gr RN and 7gr of Lil' Gun under a pulled 147gr FMJBT bullet. Sierra 180gr RN CCI SP OAL: 1.802" Lil' Gun 5.5gr Avg: 657 ES: 44 SD:20 Lil' Gun 6.0gr Avg: 741 ES: 61 SD: 25 Lil' Gun 6.5gr Avg: 819 ES: 31 SD: 14 Lil' Gun 7.0gr Avg: 924 ES: 54 SD: 28 Lil' Gun 7.5gr Avg: 1011 ES: 49 SD: 21 Lil' Gun 7.6gr Avg: 1013 ES: 90 SD: 25 Lil' Gun 7.6gr Avg: 1020 ES: 53 SD: 21 and with pulled surplus 147gr FMJBT projectiles CCI SP OAL: 1.787" Lil' Gun 9gr Avg: 1276 Lil' Gun 8.5gr Avg: 1209 Lil' Gun 8gr Avg: 1144 Lil' Gun 7.5gr Avg: 1060 Lil' Gun 7gr Avg: 1012 Lil' Gun 7gr Avg: 1001 Lil' Gun 7gr Avg: 978 Lil' Gun 6.5gr Avg: 895 Thank you! Are you using an extended throat to get a 1.8 OAL? |
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Posted: 4/15/2024 10:29:59 AM EDT
[#11]
Thanks
I have the same upper, this looks like a fun project. |
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Posted: 4/15/2024 10:40:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: R2point0]
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JIMBEAM: Thanks I have the same upper, this looks like a fun project. |
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OR, USA
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Posted: 4/15/2024 4:43:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Deerhurst]
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JIMBEAM: Thanks I have the same upper, this looks like a fun project. Forgot to update with projo info. Just using standard FMJ 308 147gr right now. Planning to chrono the current batch in a few hours. Hopefully the lighter load cycles and stays subsonic. The titegroup load was ~30FPS hotter than the software said it should be but was very, very consistent, maybe +/-5FPS across all rounds fired. Hopefully a positive update later with Longshot. The throat on the chamber is whatever he makes as standard so I'm working on figuring out how long I can load the round. I think this Longshot load is 1.675" OAL with a 1.113" long bullet. I took have the PPS43 magwell adapter. It's pretty slick! The heavymetalman website is still up as are the forums. Looks like he has some sort of new mag design as of 4/2/2024. |
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Posted: 4/15/2024 5:59:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: JIMBEAM]
[#14]
I have a magblock from HeavyMetal with a Ron Williams DI upper.
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Posted: 4/15/2024 6:18:01 PM EDT
[#15]
@TonyRumore
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Posted: 4/15/2024 6:41:07 PM EDT
[#16]
Wow, that's a pretty cool setup.
Usually if I'm working with a cartridge that operates in the AA#7 and Longshot range, I end up gravitating over to Vihtavuori N-105. You might give that a try if you have some on hand. Tony Rumore Tromix |
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Posted: 4/15/2024 6:57:28 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Deerhurst: Forgot to update with projo info. Just using standard FMJ 308 147gr right now. Planning to chrono the current batch in a few hours. Hopefully the lighter load cycles and stays subsonic. The titegroup load was ~30FPS hotter than the software said it should be but was very, very consistent, maybe +/-5FPS across all rounds fired. Hopefully a positive update later with Longshot. The throat on the chamber is whatever he makes as standard so I'm working on figuring out how long I can load the round. I think this Longshot load is 1.675" OAL with a 1.113" long bullet. I took have the PPS43 magwell adapter. It's pretty slick! The heavymetalman website is still up as are the forums. Looks like he has some sort of new mag design as of 4/2/2024. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Deerhurst: Originally Posted By JIMBEAM: Thanks I have the same upper, this looks like a fun project. Forgot to update with projo info. Just using standard FMJ 308 147gr right now. Planning to chrono the current batch in a few hours. Hopefully the lighter load cycles and stays subsonic. The titegroup load was ~30FPS hotter than the software said it should be but was very, very consistent, maybe +/-5FPS across all rounds fired. Hopefully a positive update later with Longshot. The throat on the chamber is whatever he makes as standard so I'm working on figuring out how long I can load the round. I think this Longshot load is 1.675" OAL with a 1.113" long bullet. I took have the PPS43 magwell adapter. It's pretty slick! The heavymetalman website is still up as are the forums. Looks like he has some sort of new mag design as of 4/2/2024. OP, thanks for posting that, they have a .22 TCM magwell now. |
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OR, USA
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Posted: 4/15/2024 8:44:13 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TonyRumore: Wow, that's a pretty cool setup. Usually if I'm working with a cartridge that operates in the AA#7 and Longshot range, I end up gravitating over to Vihtavuori N-105. You might give that a try if you have some on hand. Tony Rumore Tromix I'm honored you said it's pretty cool! No N-105 on hand but a buddy might have some. So, didn't cycle with Longshot. About the same as Titegroup for bolt movement. 4.3gr ~940FPS with an expected 1011FPS from Gordon's 4.5gr ~990FPS with an expected 1040FPS from Gordon's. I will try a 4.7gr and 4.9gr. Maybe that'll get the rest of the bolt movement I need! |
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OR, USA
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Posted: 4/16/2024 8:27:46 PM EDT
[#19]
Nope and nope. Nobody cycled and started to get flatter primers at 4?9gr.
Not really sure what next. Probably try some AA#7 just for kicks. See what happens. I don't want to change springs and things because it's an SBR lower I use across a few different calibers. |
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Posted: 4/16/2024 8:35:33 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Deerhurst: Nope and nope. Nobody cycled and started to get flatter primers at 4?9gr. Not really sure what next. Probably try some AA#7 just for kicks. See what happens. I don't want to change springs and things because it's an SBR lower I use across a few different calibers.  It takes 2 seconds to pop out a buffer. You've already got the upper off anyway.
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OR, USA
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Posted: 4/16/2024 10:40:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Deerhurst]
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher: It takes 2 seconds to pop out a buffer. You've already got the upper off anyway.That just means more junk I have to carry around and manage. Got enough crap to keep tabs of without that. I'm currently running a rifle buffer and spring. Next range trip: Factory ammo in a PPS mag AA#7 110gr what was a sub in a 16" before I chopped it. 6.1gr of AA#7 is written on the baggie but I have nothing to back up what I did other than that. Another batch of 147gr with 4.9gr of Longshot (on the hot side with primers starting to flatten) Batch of 147gr with 6.2gr of AA#9. Should be about 1050FPS but 77% burn in the barrel. Dual purpose of make sure I'm not going crazy and the upper does work as I remember and test the AA#9 load. Going to toss a lightweight carrier a buddy has in it to see if that helps vs play with springs. |
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Posted: 4/17/2024 8:57:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: towerofpower94]
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Deerhurst: Thank you! Are you using an extended throat to get a 1.8 OAL? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Deerhurst: Originally Posted By towerofpower94: Here's the load data from my 10" 7.63 Mini-Whisper (what I heard the Tok case-based "300 Blackout before there was 300BO" called) upper, also from Tim at Heavy Metal. Most of the below were 5-10 shot groups with an AAC 762-SDN-6 on the end. I also used 30 Mauser brass from Starline per the recommendation of Tim and others on his Tok Forum back in the day. The case length of the 30 Mauser case was shorter than Starline or PPU 7.62 Tok brass and better for long .308 projectiles. I settled on 7.5gr of Lil' Gun for the 180gr RN and 7gr of Lil' Gun under a pulled 147gr FMJBT bullet. Sierra 180gr RN CCI SP OAL: 1.802" Lil' Gun 5.5gr Avg: 657 ES: 44 SD:20 Lil' Gun 6.0gr Avg: 741 ES: 61 SD: 25 Lil' Gun 6.5gr Avg: 819 ES: 31 SD: 14 Lil' Gun 7.0gr Avg: 924 ES: 54 SD: 28 Lil' Gun 7.5gr Avg: 1011 ES: 49 SD: 21 Lil' Gun 7.6gr Avg: 1013 ES: 90 SD: 25 Lil' Gun 7.6gr Avg: 1020 ES: 53 SD: 21 and with pulled surplus 147gr FMJBT projectiles CCI SP OAL: 1.787" Lil' Gun 9gr Avg: 1276 Lil' Gun 8.5gr Avg: 1209 Lil' Gun 8gr Avg: 1144 Lil' Gun 7.5gr Avg: 1060 Lil' Gun 7gr Avg: 1012 Lil' Gun 7gr Avg: 1001 Lil' Gun 7gr Avg: 978 Lil' Gun 6.5gr Avg: 895 Thank you! Are you using an extended throat to get a 1.8 OAL? It's been years since Tim built the upper, and I can't even remember if we talked about a desire to use long subs in it, but he said he had a 10" blank available and a PPS mag block so I said have at it, haha. Here's the thread I started on Tim's Tok Forum back in 2012 (where does the time go) after receiving the upper. It has a good deal of back and forth between myself, Tim, and others who have been messing with .308 rifle bullets in the little 7.62 case for decades in ARs and converted M1 carbines. https://762x25tokarev.proboards.com/thread/114/reloading-setup-folks-using |
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Posted: 4/17/2024 9:03:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: towerofpower94]
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Deerhurst: I'm honored you said it's pretty cool! No N-105 on hand but a buddy might have some. So, didn't cycle with Longshot. About the same as Titegroup for bolt movement. 4.3gr ~940FPS with an expected 1011FPS from Gordon's 4.5gr ~990FPS with an expected 1040FPS from Gordon's. I will try a 4.7gr and 4.9gr. Maybe that'll get the rest of the bolt movement I need! Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Deerhurst: Originally Posted By TonyRumore: Wow, that's a pretty cool setup. Usually if I'm working with a cartridge that operates in the AA#7 and Longshot range, I end up gravitating over to Vihtavuori N-105. You might give that a try if you have some on hand. Tony Rumore Tromix I'm honored you said it's pretty cool! No N-105 on hand but a buddy might have some. So, didn't cycle with Longshot. About the same as Titegroup for bolt movement. 4.3gr ~940FPS with an expected 1011FPS from Gordon's 4.5gr ~990FPS with an expected 1040FPS from Gordon's. I will try a 4.7gr and 4.9gr. Maybe that'll get the rest of the bolt movement I need! I'm guessing those are burning just a little too fast for the gas port and small amount you're using. I went with Lil' Gun on the recommendation of Tim and others and it has been great. When I got a 300BO upper the LG didn't work for me while others were loving it. When I went to AA1680, "the" 300BO powder, I had no issues. Guess my whisper uppers both just needed some slightly slower burning powder to run reliably. |
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Posted: 4/17/2024 10:07:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: dryflash3]
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By towerofpower94: It's been years since Tim built the upper, and I can't even remember if we talked about a desire to use long subs in it, but he said he had a 10" blank available and a PPS mag block so I said have at it, haha. Here's the thread I started on Tim's Tok Forum back in 2012 (where does the time go) after receiving the upper. It has a good deal of back and forth between myself, Tim, and others who have been messing with .308 rifle bullets in the little 7.62 case for decades in ARs and converted M1 carbines. https://762x25tokarev.proboards.com/thread/114/reloading-setup-folks-using Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By towerofpower94: Originally Posted By Deerhurst: Originally Posted By towerofpower94: Here's the load data from my 10" 7.63 Mini-Whisper (what I heard the Tok case-based "300 Blackout before there was 300BO" called) upper, also from Tim at Heavy Metal. Most of the below were 5-10 shot groups with an AAC 762-SDN-6 on the end. I also used 30 Mauser brass from Starline per the recommendation of Tim and others on his Tok Forum back in the day. The case length of the 30 Mauser case was shorter than Starline or PPU 7.62 Tok brass and better for long .308 projectiles. I settled on 7.5gr of Lil' Gun for the 180gr RN and 7gr of Lil' Gun under a pulled 147gr FMJBT bullet. Sierra 180gr RN CCI SP OAL: 1.802" Lil' Gun 5.5gr Avg: 657 ES: 44 SD:20 Lil' Gun 6.0gr Avg: 741 ES: 61 SD: 25 Lil' Gun 6.5gr Avg: 819 ES: 31 SD: 14 Lil' Gun 7.0gr Avg: 924 ES: 54 SD: 28 Lil' Gun 7.5gr Avg: 1011 ES: 49 SD: 21 Lil' Gun 7.6gr Avg: 1013 ES: 90 SD: 25 Lil' Gun 7.6gr Avg: 1020 ES: 53 SD: 21 and with pulled surplus 147gr FMJBT projectiles CCI SP OAL: 1.787" Lil' Gun 9gr Avg: 1276 Lil' Gun 8.5gr Avg: 1209 Lil' Gun 8gr Avg: 1144 Lil' Gun 7.5gr Avg: 1060 Lil' Gun 7gr Avg: 1012 Lil' Gun 7gr Avg: 1001 Lil' Gun 7gr Avg: 978 Lil' Gun 6.5gr Avg: 895 Thank you! Are you using an extended throat to get a 1.8 OAL? It's been years since Tim built the upper, and I can't even remember if we talked about a desire to use long subs in it, but he said he had a 10" blank available and a PPS mag block so I said have at it, haha. Here's the thread I started on Tim's Tok Forum back in 2012 (where does the time go) after receiving the upper. It has a good deal of back and forth between myself, Tim, and others who have been messing with .308 rifle bullets in the little 7.62 case for decades in ARs and converted M1 carbines. https://762x25tokarev.proboards.com/thread/114/reloading-setup-folks-using Read through the paragraph of the conduct code regarding links to external sites. This applies to everyone reading this thread. I needed a review. In my opinion this link is okay and satisfies the conduct code requirements. Conduct Code right here, Conduct Code dryflash3 |
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OR, USA
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Posted: 4/17/2024 4:52:10 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By towerofpower94: I'm guessing those are burning just a little too fast for the gas port and small amount you're using. I went with Lil' Gun on the recommendation of Tim and others and it has been great. When I got a 300BO upper the LG didn't work for me while others were loving it. When I went to AA1680, "the" 300BO powder, I had no issues. Guess my whisper uppers both just needed some slightly slower burning powder to run reliably. That's my thoughts too. I've been focusing on keeping pressure at the port high but the powder should be burned just before the port and likely just bleeding it off in one pop that isn't enough to make enough gas to push the bolt. While AA#7 has a much lower pressure it does burn longer (77% burned in 8" barrel per Gordon's) which may make a difference. Looks like lil gun is slower than #9 which I'm avoiding due to % burned outside the barrel. Trying to go for quiet. If #7 doesn't work I might try #9 then lil gun. |
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OR, USA
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Posted: 4/17/2024 4:58:45 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By towerofpower94: It's been years since Tim built the upper, and I can't even remember if we talked about a desire to use long subs in it, but he said he had a 10" blank available and a PPS mag block so I said have at it, haha. Here's the thread I started on Tim's Tok Forum back in 2012 (where does the time go) after receiving the upper. It has a good deal of back and forth between myself, Tim, and others who have been messing with .308 rifle bullets in the little 7.62 case for decades in ARs and converted M1 carbines. https://762x25tokarev.proboards.com/thread/114/reloading-setup-folks-using I was talking to Tim the other day via email asking about his fancy Tok mags. I should pick his brain some. Lil Gun is slower than the powders I've been trying. Per the software estimates (they have been very close if I put the info it needs in) AA#7 at 6.2gr will finish burning in my suppressor. Not ideal. That makes noise I don't want. Maybe going heavier projectile I could get away with Lil Gun. 8" isn't much barrel! |
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OR, USA
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Posted: 4/17/2024 10:52:45 PM EDT
[#27]
So, it still cycles my factory S&B and my 110gr AA#7 loads.
Apparently my 110gr loads are about 1000FPS which surprises me. 6.2gr of AA#7 cycles the 147s at about 925FPS. Was handed a pile of partial powders to try by a buddy so maybe some now data will happen. |
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OR, USA
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Posted: 4/18/2024 11:42:23 PM EDT
[#28]
In the sample box from my buddy was 3N37. Looks like 5.2gr (trying to remember what I wrote.down) should push the 147 at 1050ish and be burned in about 5 inches. Might be a fantastic candidate!
The only other that looked like it might work is Unique. Hopefully more testing this weekend! |
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Posted: 4/19/2024 7:57:06 AM EDT
[#29]
Please be sure to record all of your loads and whether they worked or not in a post at the end of this endeavor. You'll likely be the king of the 7.62 Mini Whisper load development team by that point
 I only tried Lil' Gun at the recommendation of Tim, and since it worked well and was easy to meter out of a Redding PM I was using at the time, I just stuck with it. |
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OR, USA
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Posted: 4/19/2024 12:52:45 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By towerofpower94: Please be sure to record all of your loads and whether they worked or not in a post at the end of this endeavor. You'll likely be the king of the 7.62 Mini Whisper load development team by that point I only tried Lil' Gun at the recommendation of Tim, and since it worked well and was easy to meter out of a Redding PM I was using at the time, I just stuck with it. Will do! My short barrel is the major difference in most of the Tok loading I've seen in the past. It's a very handy little rifle! Maybe I'll finally finish my PPSh too! |
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OR, USA
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Posted: 4/20/2024 4:38:18 PM EDT
[#31]
I'll come back later on the laptop and update.
5.2gr 3N37 is 910fps and does NOT cycle. 6.6gr AA#7 runs awesome and is 1040FPS. Ejects straight out the side. Something I found interesting. Must be due to a MUCH better BC on the bullet. With factory loads that chrono around 1650FPS I am zeroed at 100 yards. The 910FPS 3N37 load is point of aim at 100 yards with enough energy to make a 12x12x0.5 inch AR500 plate move. |
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OR, USA
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Posted: 4/21/2024 3:53:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Deerhurst]
[#32]
Alright, I have a working load so Ill try to lay out all of my testing in one post. Ill keep playing with it as it goes.
The test rifle is an AR with an 8" barrel and a suppressor. The upper was built by Tim at Heavy Metal and the barrel was chopped by me. It has a super short gas system. The gas port appears to be about 2 inches past the chamber. Running a rifle buffer and spring. Every load I tried ejected the spent casing, not all managed to move the bolt enough to pick up the next round from an AR mag. I am using standard FMJ 308 147gr projectiles (~1.113" long) and CCI small pistol primers. Brass is S&B or PPU. OAL ended up being +/- a couple thousandths of 1.675". 4.2gr Titegroup -- 1040FPS -- Does NOT cycle 4.3gr Longshot -- 937FPS -- Does NOT cycle 4.5gr Longshot -- 990FPS -- Does NOT cycle 4.7gr Longshot -- 1045FPS -- Does NOT cycle 4.9gr Longshot -- 1077FPS -- Does NOT cycle 6.2gr Accurate #7 -- 911FPS -- CYCLES 6.4gr Accurate #7 -- 959FPS -- CYCLES 6.6gr Accurate #7 -- 1043FPS -- CYCLES 5.2gr 3N37 -- 909FPS -- Does NOT cycle 5.9gr 3N37 -- 1080FPS -- Does NOT cycle Oddly i had to go to a slower powder with less pressure to make it cycle. Did not expect that. Interesting enough the upper is zero'd at 100 yards with 85gr S&B factory ammo that chronos at 1650FPS and the zero is still good with the 911FPS AA#7 load at 100 yards. I am going to attribute this to the much better BC of the rifle projectile vs the stubby, round nose pistol projectile. Got a 165gr and 180gr load to try. 165gr 5.6gr Accurate #7 -- 958FPS -- Did NOT RELIABILY cycle 180gr 5.1gr Accurate #7 -- 840FPS -- Cycles -- Primers were starting to get pretty flat. Probably stop here. |
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Posted: 4/22/2024 10:30:16 AM EDT
[#33]
Good stuff.
What AR15 mag are you using and how many rounds can you get in it? I'm using an older PMAG with the front leg of the follower cut off to reliably run 17rds. I can get more than 17 in there, but it starts doing weird things to the ammo column and it misfeeds. Don't think I'd ever use this rifle for HD or going to war, but it's a fun little thing to play around with. I'm also running an H3 carbine buffer in my lower. Suppressed with an SDN-6 has given me no issues with the Lil' Gun load. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 4/22/2024 10:55:57 AM EDT
[#34]
Nice!
I forget where my upper came from. It needs to be taken to the range! Have you ever shot surplus? And if so, did you dislike any particular country? Last range visit with the M57 had a Romanian cartridge do something not expected,. No visible damage to brass or pistol but more of a "fooompf!" Shot instead of a healthy pop. Weird as hell. I had a primer pop out into my lower and jam a long time ago too. And the semi-auto pps43s I had would have out of battery, hand numbing kabangs. Peppy round. Bulgarian early 50s, Romainian late '70s,. And S&B new production... Too light of a bolt at 7,300feet altitude? The Yugo red primer stuff has served me well. Cheers |
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OR, USA
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Posted: 4/22/2024 4:46:23 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By towerofpower94: Good stuff. What AR15 mag are you using and how many rounds can you get in it? I'm using an older PMAG with the front leg of the follower cut off to reliably run 17rds. I can get more than 17 in there, but it starts doing weird things to the ammo column and it misfeeds. Don't think I'd ever use this rifle for HD or going to war, but it's a fun little thing to play around with. I'm also running an H3 carbine buffer in my lower. Suppressed with an SDN-6 has given me no issues with the Lil' Gun load. Been using a variety of 20rnd straight PMags. Haven't put more than 10 in a mag yet. Been doing 5 round sets through the chrono. I know with factory tok ammo I can trust my Tok rifle for anything. I'll have to put it through it's paces with the special loads. |
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OR, USA
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Posted: 4/22/2024 4:48:19 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bounce19712: Nice! I forget where my upper came from. It needs to be taken to the range! Have you ever shot surplus? And if so, did you dislike any particular country? Last range visit with the M57 had a Romanian cartridge do something not expected,. No visible damage to brass or pistol but more of a "fooompf!" Shot instead of a healthy pop. Weird as hell. I had a primer pop out into my lower and jam a long time ago too. And the semi-auto pps43s I had would have out of battery, hand numbing kabangs. Peppy round. Bulgarian early 50s, Romainian late '70s,. And S&B new production... Too light of a bolt at 7,300feet altitude? The Yugo red primer stuff has served me well. Cheers I only shoot reliable S&B or PPU Tokarev in everything. I've had primers blow out in the PPSh. The PPS is fun too. Never had hang fires or OOBs with anything Tok with new MFG ammo. |
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Posted: 4/23/2024 7:59:41 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bounce19712: Nice! I forget where my upper came from. It needs to be taken to the range! Have you ever shot surplus? And if so, did you dislike any particular country? Last range visit with the M57 had a Romanian cartridge do something not expected,. No visible damage to brass or pistol but more of a "fooompf!" Shot instead of a healthy pop. Weird as hell. I had a primer pop out into my lower and jam a long time ago too. And the semi-auto pps43s I had would have out of battery, hand numbing kabangs. Peppy round. Bulgarian early 50s, Romainian late '70s,. And S&B new production... Too light of a bolt at 7,300feet altitude? The Yugo red primer stuff has served me well. Cheers I only bought one lot of a few thousand rounds of corrosive 86gr surplus Tok ammo back in the day. Pretty sure it's Yugo. Burned up a bunch with this upper and the PPS magwell on an RR M16, but I haven't touched the surplus since developing the Min Whisper loads, and haven't messed with those since a 300BO upper followed me home. Going to rectify that and run the upper and PPS mags full of surplus in a Cinco De Mayo PCC match in a couple weeks, and again in September at a PCC steel match. Going to try the upper on my polymer KP-15 lower from KE Arms with the PPS magblock. Figure the corrosive salts will be easier to clean out of the polymer lower. Just take out the buufer and spring, hose it off, and blow a bunch of air through it to dry 
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OR, USA
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Posted: 4/28/2024 8:26:42 PM EDT
[#38]
Starting to mass produce the 147gr load.
Running it on a Dillon 550 with a Tok die set, 9mm shell plate and since the 7.62x39 powder funnel is too short to cycle the powder thrower and the 9mm funnel is too long I ended up using the 45ACP funnel. I'll have to look at what I have for materials in the scrap bucket, may make myself a powder funnel for Tok. Loading seems to work though! |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 4/28/2024 8:58:30 PM EDT
[#39]
I use 110 grn FMJ bullet with,3.2 grns of bullseye.
I,have two blow back 7.62x25 carbines works great with my octane 9 & 45 cans. Not sure that load data will help you though being lighter projo and blowback instead of gas op. |
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OR, USA
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Posted: 4/29/2024 12:06:13 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By OTHP: I use 110 grn FMJ bullet with,3.2 grns of bullseye. I,have two blow back 7.62x25 carbines works great with my octane 9 & 45 cans. Not sure that load data will help you though being lighter projo and blowback instead of gas op. My 110gr loads use AA#7 as well. What kind of velocities are you pushing with 3.2gr of bullseye? It's a different animal with the gas gun. I get to play the burn rate game which doesn't seem to corelate to pressure at the port. My faster high pressure tests failed and one of the loest pressure powders I tried works great. |
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