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Posted: 12/2/2021 1:39:41 PM EDT
Saw this on another forum. I thought it was interesting so am posting it here.
Some interesting backstory from forum member NickB: Back story here…my very first meeting with the founder of Magpul, Richard Fitzpatrick, was breakfast at Denny’s after messaging him on arfcom looking for a job in mid-2006. He then took me back to headquarters where he, Mike Mayberry (owner & industrial designer), Brian Nakayama (engineer), Eric Nakayama (engineer), Doug Smith (COO), Drake Clark (head of sales), and I passed around a 3D printed, non-functional Masada prototype. The engineering team took the design from plastic toy to functional machine-gun in a matter of weeks, it was very impressive, but we/Magpul didn’t know what we didn’t know when it comes to engineering a brand new weapon system. We made grandiose claims about pricing, delivery timeframe, parts compatibility, etc. etc. etc., almost all of which ended up being wrong. Doug Smith saw the writing on the wall and understood that manufacturing a gun was probably the dumbest financial decision Magpul could possibly make, so he encouraged the team to find a partner who was willing to undertake that financial/liability risk. So, enter Bushmaster. The honest answer as to why Magpul licensed the Masada/ACR to Bushmaster is because nobody else wanted it, at least nobody who could actually bring the gun to market in a big way. All of the major players saw the design, thought it was cool, but recognized that it would be a multi-year, multi-million dollar development project. The gun simply wasn’t finished, but because Bushmaster didn’t actually engineer or manufacture anything, they didn’t realize how much time/money needed to be invested to make the Masada work. Honestly, they simply didn’t have any competent engineers to look at the design and say holy shit, that tolerance call out literally says “must fit with”. Not joking here, after I went to work for Remington I learned that the Masada prints were a running joke within Remington R&D because they used “must fit with” as tolerance call outs. Bushmaster signs the license deal right around the time they are acquired by Remington. Remington R&D gets ahold of the design and basically says “holy shit, what did you idiots get us in to?!” In order to make the gun function and be manufacturable, Remington basically dumped a few million dollars re-engineering everything other than the aesthetics. Now, to be clear, Remington is as ****ed up as a football bat, so it shouldn’t have taken that long or cost that much. I worked there for 11 months after my Magpul stint, and the R&D team told me we needed 250,000 rounds of ammunition to test a set of back up sights… So in the process of making the gun work, it basically doubled in price from what we told people at SHOT 2007, added about 3 pounds of weight, and lost features/parts compatibility that kinda made it cool in the first place. We (Magpul) were PISSED to the point of actually talking about buying the design back and bringing it to market ourselves. Obviously that was an emotional reaction, and not a good financial decision, so ultimately Doug Smith’s cool head won the day and kept the company from doing anything stupid. So the ACR stumbles to market under the Bushmaster name, very lack luster, mediocre sales, terrible margin, etc. But then the US Army decides maybe the M4 needs to be replaced in a program dubbed “Individual Carbine”. Remington Defense fast tracks development on two systems: the ACR-IC and the Remington Gas Piston (RGP). They add a metal lower, new hand guard, take away the quick change barrel, tweak the gas system, and ultimately shave something like 2-3 pounds out of the gun and make a badass carbine for submission to the Army. Not only is it lighter and better, it’s also hundreds of dollars less to manufacture. I pushed the CEO of Remington hard to let me sell it commercially, but the Defense team didn’t want to give it up to Bushmaster for fear of them totally screwing it up with cheap parts. I have one of maybe 15-20 ACR-IC rifles in public hands, and it is almost exactly what the Masada was intended to be, but it will probably never be produced again. Source: https://www.facebook.com/groups/929912630445469/posts/3489134694523237/?comment_id=3489323137837726&reply_comment_id=3489422391161134 |
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Posted: 12/2/2021 1:50:40 PM EDT
[#1]
Thanks for sharing. Oh, what could have been.
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Posted: 12/2/2021 2:14:49 PM EDT
[#2]
I'd heard some of the story before when I spoke to a fellow how worked at Bushmaster after he'd left and went to work for a barrel manufacturer. From what I remember he said they had to make something like 150 changes to the plans supplied by Magpul to get the gun to a point where it could be mass produced. |
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IL, USA
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Posted: 12/3/2021 1:20:22 AM EDT
[#3]
Ultimately, what was the issue with the latest iteration of the acr? To my eyes, it looks like the masada
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Posted: 12/3/2021 2:53:21 AM EDT
[#4]
Originally Posted By Melvin_Johnson: Remington Defense fast tracks development on two systems: the ACR-IC and the Remington Gas Piston (RGP). They add a metal lower, new hand guard, take away the quick change barrel, tweak the gas system, and ultimately shave something like 2-3 pounds out of the gun and make a badass carbine for submission to the Army. Not only is it lighter and better, it’s also hundreds of dollars less to manufacture. I pushed the CEO of Remington hard to let me sell it commercially, but the Defense team didn’t want to give it up to Bushmaster for fear of them totally screwing it up with cheap parts. I have one of maybe 15-20 ACR-IC rifles in public hands, and it is almost exactly what the Masada was intended to be, but it will probably never be produced again.[/B] Some other company now owns the results of all that work. Maybe the new owners can make a better choice than did defunct Remington. |
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USA
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Posted: 12/3/2021 7:34:15 AM EDT
[#5]
Originally Posted By Melvin_Johnson: Remington Defense fast tracks development... They add a metal lower, new hand guard, take away the quick change barrel, tweak the gas system, and ultimately shave something like 2 - 3 pounds out of the gun and make a badass carbine for submission to the Army. Not only is it lighter and better, it’s also hundreds of dollars less to manufacture. ...it is almost exactly what the Masada was intended to be... If they’re saying the Masada was intended to be lighter, “better”, and cheaper, that makes sense to me. If they’re saying the Masada was intended to have a metal handguard, metal lower, no quick change barrel, and a stock that neither folds nor has an adjustable comb, that makes a lot less sense to me. |
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Posted: 12/4/2021 5:01:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: AK-12]
[#6]
Very informative post, thanks OP. I am looking forward, perhaps with some apprehension, to what the re-released ACR will look like now that BM is owned by Franklin Armory.
On one hand, I want it to be all people hoped it would be a decade ago when it had so much promise. On the other, I want all my spare ACR parts to be compatible with my ACR 2.0.  Hopefully those don't turn out to be mutually exclusive. |
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Posted: 12/4/2021 7:25:00 PM EDT
[#7]
I hope Franklin does well with the ACR. It always seemed like it had so much potential but was never able to realize it.
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Posted: 12/10/2021 4:53:23 AM EDT
[#8]
Please bring RemDef's ACR back. Don't care about Bushmaster's version.
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 1/4/2022 6:33:12 PM EDT
[#9]
Dude... Thank you for sharing !!!!!
awesome story |
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Posted: 2/23/2022 1:54:15 PM EDT
[#10]
How did the RemDef model shave so much weight from the BM model (besides the barrel profile)?
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Posted: 2/24/2022 12:06:20 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By topgunpilot20: How did the RemDef model shave so much weight from the BM model (besides the barrel profile)? 2-3 lbs may be an exaggeration. Ounces add up though: - Deleting quick change barrel feature removes the handle, ratchet, makes the trunnion smaller - Lower change, pretty sure that was a magnesium alloy as well - Barrel profile shaves a few ounches - Non-folding stock removes a pretty big hunk of polymer - Handguard trades off a bunch of polymer for lighter alloy Magpul's polymer blend has always been pretty durable, but it's also fairly heavy. Dumping it for a magnesium/aluminum alloy of comparable or even less thickness would result in savings. |
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Posted: 2/24/2022 12:10:55 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Findsman: 2-3 lbs may be an exaggeration. Ounces add up though: - Deleting quick change barrel feature removes the handle, ratchet, makes the trunnion smaller - Lower change, pretty sure that was a magnesium alloy as well - Barrel profile shaves a few ounches - Non-folding stock removes a pretty big hunk of polymer - Handguard trades off a bunch of polymer for lighter alloy Magpul's polymer blend has always been pretty durable, but it's also fairly heavy. Dumping it for a magnesium/aluminum alloy of comparable or even less thickness would result in savings. Weight is my only complaint with the ACR. I swapped my 16" barrel and plastic handguard for a 10" barrel and RPM handguard which helped a bunch. I figured the trunnion/barrel nut was all that was left to shave weight, but I guess the polymer lower and stock are pretty heavy compared to a magnesium lower and no stock hinge. |
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Posted: 2/24/2022 12:26:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: gunnut284]
[#13]
Franklin now has Bushmaster but does that include the improved RemDef ACR? And who ended up with RemDef? Still with the rest of new Remington or somewhere else? Basically, who currently owns the rights to the improved version of the ACR?
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Posted: 2/24/2022 1:11:59 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gunnut284: Franklin now has Bushmaster but does that include the improved RemDef ACR? And who ended up with RemDef? Still with the rest of new Remington or somewhere else? Basically, who currently owns the rights to the improved version of the ACR? Franklin has announced that they do, and they are working to re release it. No ETA yet though |
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