Thinking about dumping a few ARs to fund an M1A, I honestly don’t know much about them, any reason to avoid doing so?

This is an entertaining read:

https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/2719900_M1-A-goes-KABOOM.html

The more USGI parts, the better.

There aren't any more USGI parts in M1A's as far as I know.

@Lou_Daks

I'd never buy an SA again, I do recommend LRB Arms.

https://www.lrbarms.com/

Interesting,

Not something I’m too concerned about, but definitely interesting.

I’m sure those are super nice, but that’s far above my budget.

ETA: oof, their receivers are over $1000 alone.

You rang?

The Kaboom spooked me, but I gave mine up primarily because the M1-A is a poor platform for optics.  It was quite accurate, when my eyes were good.  The factory irons are really good, and the trigger wasn't terrible, either.  Not sorry to see it go.

IMO the AR 308 is better at everything.  I don't own one, but if I was starting from scratch that's what I'd get.

There is an Armscorp with USGI parts on the EE right now...

https://buladefense.com/products/

I had a TW 73 case that failed due to a soft case head in an AR-15 around 1990. I learned after the fact that the new surplus brass I’d bought from a local gun shop in SD was supposed to have been condemned after it was discovered they had a potential to fail due to soft brass in the head.  The Twin Cities arsenal had apparently sold it to a scrap dealer without crushing the cases and over a decade later some of them found their way onto the handloading component market.

The failed case resulted in escaping gas cutting three of the lugs off the AR-15’s bolt, damaged the other lugs , and then jammed the bolt back into the bolt carrier. That fractured both sides and the front of the bottom of the carrier and drove it down at a 90 degree angle into the magazine well.   The gas escaping through the magazine well and magazine bulged the magazine out to a beer can shape below the magazine well and scattered the contents of the magazine on the ground.  

From my perspective the shot sounded funny and I wondered why there were cartridges rolling around on the ground. I was massively impressed at how well the AR-15 managed the gas from a catastrophic case head failure.

I had to use a hammer and punch to pound the bottom of the bolt carrier back into position in order to remove the bolt. The barrel extension was in damaged, and all it needed was a new bolt and carrier.  

——

I suspect a similar failure occurred with the M1A in that linked post.  A pierced primer won’t do that kind of damaged and as indicated you cannot double charge a .308/7.62x51 case.   You could perhaps over charge it enough to get a failure like that, but it would be hard to do without noticing it.  A soft or improperly annealed case is more likely.

In the mid 1980s I had an early SA M1A Supermatch with predominantly TRW military parts.  It was a great rifle and capable of consistent 10 round 3/4 MOA with handloaded 168 gr SMKs and around 1 MOA with issued M852 match ammo.

I sold it to another competitor when I switched to an AR-15 in the mid 1990s.  

A few years ago I bought another M1A, this time a standard model with all civilian parts.

It won’t compete with a Super Match but quite frankly with nothing more than a gas system shim kit it shoots 1.5 MOA 5 shot groups with 168 gr SMKs loaded on a Dillon 550B press at M852 velocities. If I drop it into a JAE stock it tightens up horizontally to around 1.0 MOA 5 shot groups. That’s not bad for a standard grade barrel.  Accuracy with 147-150 gr M80 clone loads in the GI style standard weight wood stock is around 2 MOA with Hornady 150 gr FMJ bullets.

To be fair I added NM front and rear sights,. The flash hider as delivered was already opened up to NM dimensions.  I have not bothered to glass bed it, and frankly I probably won’t as 1.5 to 2 MOA accuracy is fine for any purpose I have for it now.  But it’s definitely worth shimming the gas system. It’s inexpensive, but much easier and just as effective as unitizing the system.

—-

Consequently, my thoughts are that the mystic qualities assigned to M1As with military parts is way over blown.

Historically, both Winchester and H&R had massive quality control issues with their contract M14s and never really got the problem completely resolved.  Because of those issues the original Springfield Armory, which was originally only expected to make some initial M14s, kept being asked to produce additional M14s and ended up producing more M14s than H&R or Winchester.  TRW was brought in later in the game with the thought that their advanced manufacturing methods might result in higher quality.  That was the case with their rifles averaging between 2.5 and 3 MOA compared to 5 to 6 MOA  for the Winchester and H&R examples, and without all the receiver and bolt hardness issues.

That explains the mystique associated with the TRW parts, but attributing higher quality to “military” parts that include Winchester and H&R is misguided at best. Their only attraction in civilian M1As was being available at low cost. None the less, the SA M1As with TRW parts command a premium.  I suppose it makes sense for a collector. But for a shooter, the juice isn’t worth the squeeze.


What people also seem to forget is that manufacturing processes have improved.  Back when the M1 Garand was still widely used in DCM completion. I saw the something similar when accurizing the M1 Garand for shooters.   The M1s that were arsenal reworked and re-barreled in the mid 1960s (and then often stored) didn’t usually need to be re-barreled to be competitive in local DCM matches.  In contrast, even the best WWII and Korean War era barrels (and there were plenty of excellent condition original M1s back then with only minor arsenal reworks) generally became the weakest link in a fully accurized Garand and benefitted from re-barreling.   20 years of progress in barrel making showed.

It’s no different now.  SA makes a good product, and their parts are not giving up anything to TRW parts from the 1960s.

That of course will trigger all the snobs who feel SA is now just making just mid tier rifles, and want to justify paying more for one of the more boutique M1As. Whatever makes them happy, it’s their money.

It depends on what you want to do with it. If you want to shoot open sights it’s great. If you want to add scope it won’t be easy the cheek weld is wrong unless you change the stock. If you want a red dot on a scout type base that works well. Heavy bullets can cause the op rod to bend . A Schuster gas plug is money well spent. More gunsmiths will cause you a problem with it than will fix it.  GA Precision knows what they are doing but that’s expensive. It’s not as easy as an AR10. It takes lots of money to get them better than 2 MOA but 2MOA at 600 yds still puts everything in the chest. Understanding the rear sight is a learning curve. Reloading books have lower max loads for M1a than their loads for other .308 rifles  that can be a problem if you have other rifles in .308

I would suggest you consider the Ruger AR10  but I don’t have one.

Might look at a Nemo 300 WM

I think the quality on them is ok except for the sights, which are cheap junk.  You simply do not want any wobble in your rear sight.

Just to kind of clarify where I’m at, the only reason I’m interested in one is because I have a thing for old military guns, that being the case I’d absolutely prefer a gun that has original parts, but that’s far beyond what I can spend right now.

It’s highly unlikely that I’d scope it, but I may try to add a red dot at some point. Otherwise I’d just put it in a USGI stock and hand guard, replace the flash suppressor with an original so I have a bayonet lug and shoot it. It’s a struggle to shoot beyond 300 yards in my area anyway, so accuracy isn’t paramount.

Being somewhat of a collector I’d probably try to replace parts with USGI ones over time as I found good prices.

It's not realistic and not necessary.  This isn't 2003 where GI parts are all over the place.  Also besides the sights and furniture what are you realistically going to replace?  SAI has the core operating components figured out, and any of those are fantastically expensive as GI parts now.

If I were you, I'd buy an M1A Standard, then:

-Change out stock and handguard
-Install dummy selector kit from Fulton Armory, you can also by the semi-auto button and dremel it down to fit the dummy selector kit
-Install flash hider with bayonet lug
-Inspect front and rear sight and install USGI if necessary (the rear sight will probably need to be a Garand sight because it will be cheaper)

Then you'd basically have a Vietnam-era M14.

Then buy 20 round mags, and various accessories for maintenance and cleaning.  Fulton Armory, Midway, and Gun Parts Corp (Numrich) should be good for most of it.

I appreciate the advice, won’t bother swapping stuff unnecessarily then.

I bought my M1A Standard in 2021.

Added an ARMS rail, an Aimpoint PRO, USGI fiberglass stock, SEI bolt stop, Schuster vented gas plug, and a gas cylinder shim kit. It's a smooth shooter that's never missed a beat. Ten round group at 100m with Prvi 155 HPBT is MOA.

What does the Schuster vented gas plug do that that the original M14 White system vented gas plug does not?

Nothing, you use them in a Garand.

So why not get a Garand and rebarrel it to .308, like the Navy did?  Then you get a good mix of style, history, and utility.

It's what I did with my old mixmaster Greek return that I bought from the CMP in the late 2000's, and I couldn't be happier with it.

As purchased (which was fun until .30-06 got expensive, the stock was disappointing, etc):


And now, with a refinish, restock, and rebate el/rechamber to .308:


It gets out of the safe much more often nowadays.

I have one in 30-06, so I’d like to have more of a variety.

I also have an M1 carbine an M16A1 clone and an M16A2 clone, so the big holes in my collection are the 03 and the M14.

I have 2 M1a's, a scout squad and a socom. They're both really fun. No regerts.

Attached File

As the name might allude, it vents some of the gas. Less recoil, faster follow-up shots.

I just picked up a new Scout Squad Tuesday and it's flawless so far (only a half dozen mags through it currently) The only thing I intend to do to it is to replace the black factory stock with a USGI fiberglass and remove the barrel mounted rail and replace it with a GI hand guard.

If I decide to add optics I have a Sadlak mount waiting.

I bought mine from KYGUNCO here- M1A Scout Squad $1384.99

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1046461870

They both vent excess gas.  What does the Schuster plug do that the OEM plug does not?

Ohhhh, that’s nice.

I bought a new scout model last year and she’s a beast!!!

Over 300 rounds through it and 0 issues. Attached File

For combat purposes there wasn’t anything wrong with the M1 / M14 sight.  It was easy to zero, durable, reliable, adjustable, repeatable and easy to use.

For service rifle match purposes it needed to be be adjustable in smaller increments and some hysterisis needed to be removed from the system.

Back in the day we would do a number of things to match tune the sight.

1) bed the rear sight aperture to the sight base to eliminate side to side and fore and aft wobble. This was done with a single layer of release agent and bedding compound.

2) remove vertical wobble from the sight base by shimming the bottom of the sight base where it contacted the receiver and then ensuring the detent in the spring cover was deep enough to provide constant downforce on the sight base. In rare cases we’d have to deepen the detent with a cold chisel.

3) Eliminate side to side play in the sight base by milling away part of the boss on the splined elevation adjustment shaft so that a spring would be inserted between the receiver sight ear and the sight base.  His kept the same screw face constantly loaded on the sight base.

4) drill the receiver for a ball and spring to engage 8 detents in the windage adjustment knob.  This changed the adjustment from 4 clicks and 4 MOA per turn to 8 MOA per turn. Provided the eight detents were properly spaced and equal in profile, it gave accurate 1/2 MOA adjustments.

5) Install a National match hood with an off center aperture that changed the elevation by 1/2 MOA when rotated 180 degrees. This gave 1/2 MOA adjustments without modifying the elevation knob.

6) A NM front sight was also installed. This was just slightly thinner to provide a front sight blade that was the same apparent width as the bullseye.

The end result was a sight that would allow a capable shooter to shoot 1MOA or slightly sub MOA groups.

It’s a far better sight for match purposes than the standard M16A2 sight. They also need tweaked for match accuracy.

——


SA and other vendors sell NM front sights and hooded rear sight apertures.  You can also buy a complete nm rear sight assembly

SA now drills its receivers for the 1/8” ball and detent spring.  

The 1/2 MOA windage knob and detent ball and spring can be obtained from SA and other vendors.

Everything else, except milling the splined shaft for the elevation adjustment is easily done by the end user requiring minimal skills.

Keep an eye out for one of the Chinese clones. They can be had pretty cheap if you find a deal. The Chinese guns aren't popular, so they don't get the money that Springfield guns do. They haven't been imported in decades, so the Chinese aren't getting any money out of them at this point. You can find them in completely stock configuration to a full custom build. I had a Polytech that was completely rebuilt by Smith Ent as a crazy horse clone. I found a Sage chassis and put together a clone of the gun being used overseas.

I recently got a Norinco in a USGI wood stock, trigger group and magazine. It was $1000 or so. I did have to get a flash hired as it came with a tacked on front sight with the flash hired chopped off. So add $50 for that. But its a decent setup for less than an imported AK. It fulfills my nostalgia of guns I loved growing up.

The Chinese guns have a chrome lined barrel and forged parts. Ironically, they are closer to USGI guns than the Springfield M1A guns. So while the finish isn't anything special, its a great starting point. USGI parts are crazy expensive compared to just a handful of years ago, but so is a hamburger. You can always upgrade it as you find parts.

The Chinese guns are chambered in 7.62 NATO. Many people use .308Win gauges which are slightly shorter, so they get bad readings and thing there is something wrong with the gun. Keep in mind that everyone that said the bolts were bad or weren't heat treated properly all offered services to 'fix' those issues, so they had a financial stake in people thinking they were bad. And like any batch of guns, there probably was a few lemons that got through for them to display. But everyone heard about the problems, very few have first hand experiences.

Norinco stuff is generally good to go. Sadly the only imports we've had recently are 870 clones, and the Lynx 12. Those kinda dried up too.

I wouldn't pass up a new Springfield M1A, but the older ones with GI parts are more sought out.

I think I saw an article on the armory life where Springfield Armory itself did 15k rounds in 5 days with no issues.

If that article is 100 percent fact, that's a lot of use and one hell of an ammo bill.

I believe even the military tests established that a forged receiver would last around 400K rounds before wearing out and a cast one around 250,000 rounds.

Are the Savage pump shotguns Norinco or another Chinese manufacturer?

I slapped an sig red dot on my scout and it’s quick and hits like a hammer.

It’s heavier than an ar but dam if it isn’t fun !

Brownells is having a sale on M1As right now and I have a gift card so it looks like I’m going to order one.

The wood version is only $30 more than the polymer, are the poly stocks any good or should I spend the money and get the wood? I’ll be putting it in a USGI walnut stock eventually but will be keeping the factory stock on it for awhile.

The polymer stock will likely have less shift, but to me the only reason to buy an M1A is nostalgia, so get the wood.

If the poly stocks are decent I’ll probably go that way to save a couple bucks and put it toward a USGI stock, that way I can have both.

It could stay in Vietnam era configuration most of the time but occasionally LARP as a BHD clone.

I ditched my polymer stock as soon as I got it home as I ordered a fiberglass usgi stock leading up to my purchase.

The Scout Squad I just bought has the black poly stock and I don't hate it nearly as much as I expected to and it is lighter than than the USGI Big red stock or USGI fiberglass stocks with all the hardware I have on hand.

I do prefer wood stocks on these rifles so it'll live in the Winchester big red stock most of the time but I can see the poly stock getting some use in lousy weather and hunting.

Having said all that the wood stocks that Springfield is supplying lately have been extremely nice and well worth a $30 price bump imo.

Yeah, the fact that it’s not much more has me considering it.

Seems like it’s a better value, I can always grab a beater fiberglass stock later if I want to paint one.

I went with the polymer stock as I was going to replace it with a USGI fiberglass anyway. I do keep it around and swap it with the wood stock on my USGI/Fulton M14. It's not a bad stock.

OP

If you poke around gunbroker you can find a few M1As that have all GI parts. The general consensus is a serial number that's under 80k is a preban ( mostly GI parts if not all)

I have seen them in the 120,000 range with them as well.
I think alot are hitting the used market with the AR dominance of high power, plus a lot of older shooters getting out of that style of shooting.

I’d go wood personally for the price. It’ll likely be a decent stock and poly or fiberglass will be cheaper to source if you decide to add an all weather stock later.  

I’ve scoped several different rifles in different manners and it can be expensive. I’ve got a traditional scope on one and a scout scoped model with a red dot. Different rifles for different uses. I think they’re fantastic and have a lot of soul and history.

I’d say if you bought a Springfield and checkmate magazines cleaned and lubricated it properly and fed it good ammo you’ll be happy. They’re not necessarily the best option for every role but that doesn’t mean they aren’t perfectly enjoyable rifles.

Don't waste your money on the Springfield brand go with LRB Arms.

I can appreciate their product, but it’s more than double the cost of an M1A, for the average person it’s just not worth it.

The price difference can get one a pile of mags, spare parts, and more.