I shoot and run around with a  guy that owns and operates a company that up-armors vehicles for the milt and several gov. agencies.  I ended up becoming a certified welder after talking a votec welding class in order to make my own SA mg-42.  Now the result of this random this was, "hey Jim do you think you weld me up some steel targets?"  "Sure, why not...."  Ive gotten to work with AR-500, ceramic plates, ceramic, polymer, alloy composites, and lots of exotic bullet stopping stuff.  I even got to watch a 1" composite stop a 20mm at 30 yds.  I have access to some pretty cool stuff to stop bullets (plus I get a great deal on scrap metal!)

Having said all that I dont make armor, But Ive made a bunch of targets and shot the hell out of them so I think I can speak on steels durability.

A few observations: 3/8" Ar-500 will stop ---- 223, 5.56 (all flavors), 5.45X39, 308, 30-06 (ball and AP), and 1 round BALL 50 BMG (AP goes right thru it).  Now stop doesnt mean it wont bend or deform or get launched 20 yards away, just not penetrate.  Except for the 50bmg, Im talking 6 rounds in 6 inches.  In fact, it will stop more than 6 - I make rifle targets out of this stuff and we've shot the 100's of rounds at them.  Now a 338 mag will penetrate, and  22-250 with hot loads will penetrate after 2-3 rounds at 100yds if you put them on top of each other - funny how the steel core 7.62 or the ss109 bounces right off.

Splatter is a definite issue, when using steel.  I have seen bullet frags gouge 1/16" chunks out of frames made of mild steel.  I have even seen large frags remove as much as 1/8 of an inch of mild steel from a target frame holding the ar-500 target.  

Bullets (and pentration) are adversely impacted by the more oblique the angle at which they strike.  As an example 1/4" mild steel angle iron will often deflect a 308 bullet when struck at 45 degrees (it will dent/bend but not go thru).  Now if you take the same steel 1/2" thick and shoot it perpendicular to the plate, its sailing right on thru (most 7.62X39 will pentrate it as well)

When you cut steel (hardened) it looses some of its hardness.  Ive used a plasma cutter and a torch. A plasma cutter is better since the tempering loss doesnt extend as far inward.  But it happens with both.  In general, about 1/2" from the cut edge has roughly 2/3 to 1/2 the ability to resist pentration when cut with a plasma torch.  Same applies for a torch, but the loss distance is closer to 3/4".

I would feel very well protected wearing a 3/8 thick plate of ar-500, except it would weigh so much Hagii would easily catch me to cut off my head since I'd be moving like a turtle.

Enter, ar-5XX - a new alloy.  I tested some 1/8 thick plate at 7 yards last week with an sar1, a m-16, and garand.  All rounds were defeated EXCEPT the ss-106 which pentrated (cracked a 2X diameter hole) at round 3 but round 4 pentrated.  There was less than 1/16" spacing between rounds so I think if we'd have spaced the rounds out there would not have been an issue.  The ball 5.56 didnt pentrate by 10 rounds so I moved to the ss-109.  The 7.63X 39, both steel core and none steel core didnt pentrate after 8 rounds so I went ahead a tried one shot from a garand using 1970's dated ball.  Bent the plate, but no penetration.

So my thoughts are this would make a great plate to use with a vest.  Personally I'd wear a vest OVER the steel to try to contain the frags - anything that can gouge steel as bad as Ive seen bullet frags do I want getting tied up in a vest vs. my face. #2, angled plates are vastly superior to flat plates.  

I think its very doable to make some 'SAPI' plates out of this newer allow and have them NOT be weight prohibitive, but I want to abuse it more and then see how it does with some Kevlar wrapping.  Production cost I would estimate to be 1/2 or less of the current steel plates I see for sale....

Just a few random toughts - now back to my regular job - being a doc....

Footrat,

I hear ya.  I probably overstated the point, but I just wanted folks to know how much of a big deal the jacket/bullet splater is.  Certainly, you need something under your plate to account for the blunt force trauma.  Having said that, a layer of nylon, cordura, etc. is pushing the limit IMO as 'splater' protection.  It might help some, but if the large chunks of jacket and lead can remove a 1/8'' chunk of steel (albeit mild steel) I'd prefer a plate with some kevlar wraping or some other coating to 'snare' some of the frags.  

I'll try to remember to take some pics of square tubing 'chewed up' from jacket bullet splater when Im rebuilding some target frames.  To give you an idea, at the jtacsupply shoot this weekend we ended up sith a few frames (14 gauge 1" square tubing) that have areas that are toast from 'splater'.  

Until I started making targets, I had no idea how much there really was, nor how powerful it is.  Another example, frames 20 inches from the closest point of impact ON HANDGUN targets get 'sandblasted' to bear metal if the design places the the frame in line of the blast.

Anyway my point was to make sure folks appreciate the force and danger of fragments generated when a bullet is stopped abruptly.  Certainly blunt force trauma from plate deformation is a serious issue and pretty well understood.

Im working on getting some of the newer allow to abuse.  Im pretty sure I could get some more and plasma cut it to all kinds of shapes, but I'd like to mess with it some more before I sell any.  I plan to get a few more samples a try them out with different combos to eval its use as personal armor.  If it looks good, I'll probably use it personally.  Im really really sure I wont be selling it as armor - LIABILITY!  However, if it works out and folks want it, I'll probably sell it as steel with a small markup for my cutting/finishing time.

All that is down the road, I need to TEST more before I'd feel comfortable wearing it.

I'll keep ya updated.

Footrat,

I dont know how well they would bend without heat which would effect the tempering and therfore the hardness.  You would almost have to shape them and then have someone heat treat them.  If you tried to bend them from flat stock they might just crack it that hard.  I broke the die on an 80 ton press trying to punch a 1/2" hole thu some 3/8" plate a while back, so Idont even know if I have access to anything that could bend it (other than a 50 bmg - but that's lacking on the controlled part of the bend!).

I should have some more steel delivered this weekend, so once I get back in town and get this run of targets done I may get around to messing with the thinner stuff.

Great info, great thread!!!


Couple of questions, I'm in the market for a front and rear 10x12 plates to fit my wasatch.  These won't be used all the time or for any kind of work, but more for a few up coming classes.

I do not plan on wearing any soft armor underneath, nor do I have the funds for it right now

My budget for these is hovering right around $400 right now, I've seen a few Mfg's named in this thread so far, but does anyone else have any recommendations other than kejo and CPC?

Also, steel seems to be more moderatley priced vs Ceramic and I like the care or lack of care issues with the steel, but am concerned now with the spalling issue of the steel plates in my set up should something bad happen.  Does anyone know of a mfg that is making a kevlar bag for these plates that will still fit in the carriers?

I know what I'm going after isn't the best choice for total protection, but feel if I ever needed it, it will be a far cry better than the other alternative.

Thanks in advance!

Originally Posted By dump1567: I know your asking for something other than Kejo, but the Kejo does have a spall type guard around it.  Not sure how effective it is.

I may have worded that wrong, I was looking for other mfg's to look at other than just the two I had listed.

I'll go with Kejo if they are worth it, but was just looking for as many options as possible in that config/price range

Thanks!

Thanks, guys.  This thread has saved me a lot of headache.  I'm trying to get gear ready for possible deployment to someplace warmer and nastier, so I've been looking for stand-alone plates to defeat 7.62x39mm and 5.56mm to wear with a plate carrier.

The BulletProofMe site's Level IV in-conjunction plates with Level II armor, when worn alone, fill the bill, and won't weigh too much.  $520 for a set is OK, too.

Thanks for taking the time to make my choices easier.