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User Panel
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UT, USA
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Posted: 2/28/2024 5:02:31 PM EDT
Ive been eyeballing the Ruger SFAR for a "If you had to pick one" SHTF / Go to rifle. I really like the PSA PA10 lineup also for a budget rifle. Any other suggestions / recommendations to look at in that 1-2K AR10 in 308 that I might be overlooking? Thanks The Gee |
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OH, USA
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Posted: 2/28/2024 5:23:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Millennial]
[#1]
If your goal is lightweight or shorter framed AR then you're going to have to start getting into proprietary rifles.
If your goal is just accuracy and value, assemble it yourself. Get an Aero M5E1 builder's set along with an M5 LPK. And get a quality custom barrel made, headspaced on your bolt AR10/A5 extension with EA1095 spring. Everything else is like putting together an AR15. A quality barrel headspaced to your bolt is like 95% of the accuracy of the rifle. Doesn't even really have to be full custom. Criterion and other makers have excellent premade barrels. Point being, you can buy something you know is going to be a tack driver without having to roll the dice on a production-quality barrel like PSA, BA, Aero, faxon, etc. |
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SC, USA
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Posted: 2/28/2024 5:28:17 PM EDT
[#2]
Overall I've been really pleased with my Armalite DEF-10 for about $1k (not sure what they cost these days). The front railed gas block is useless, so figure on adding a Samson freefloat rail (I like it a lot better than the one Armalite makes) and lo-pro gas block of your choice. All in still should be well short of your price cap.
The Sig 716i is another one that gets pretty much all around positive reviews and is on my long term buy list. I've never even handled one. But I would take either of the above over either the SFAR or PA10 based on everything I've read at this point. |
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Posted: 2/28/2024 8:26:55 PM EDT
[#3]
I’m happy with my 20” Ruger SFAR. I’ve owned 3 large frame dpms, they all worked too. I think the small frame thing will catch on, if they hold up. Comparing both bolts you wouldn’t think the tiny Ruger bolt is enough, but I’m pretty sure the large frame stuff was way overbuilt.
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USA
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Posted: 2/28/2024 10:32:37 PM EDT
[#4]
LMT.
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UT, USA
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Posted: 2/29/2024 10:21:53 AM EDT
[#5]
Im now leaning towards the PA-10 Sabre M110 knockoff. anyone have any good or bad to say about those? |
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Posted: 2/29/2024 11:03:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: tep0583]
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DVCNick: Overall I've been really pleased with my Armalite DEF-10 for about $1k (not sure what they cost these days). The front railed gas block is useless, so figure on adding a Samson freefloat rail (I like it a lot better than the one Armalite makes) and lo-pro gas block of your choice. All in still should be well short of your price cap. The Sig 716i is another one that gets pretty much all around positive reviews and is on my long term buy list. I've never even handled one. But I would take either of the above over either the SFAR or PA10 based on everything I've read at this point. Agree on the DEF10 but good luck finding one these days. Glad I bought when I did. Maybe Hinterlands for the win, at just over $1000 https://www.hinterlandoutfitters.com/armalite-series-defensive-sporting-rifle-def10-win762-nato-chrome-molychrome-lined-semi-auto-stock-black-finish-p-49023.html Honestly, though, I'd probably look at the SFAR before the DEF10 now. KY Gun company currently has it in 6.5 for $899. That's nuts! ETA - I HAVE held a Sig 716i and it's a SOLID feeling rifle. Never shot it, but I expect it would shoot well. I think these are good options in the 308 AR space. |
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Posted: 3/1/2024 12:14:47 AM EDT
[#7]
Best value? Build your own, and to your own specifications. Lots of quality parts available, and the tools are cheap.
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MP, USA
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Posted: 3/1/2024 12:42:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: JoshNC]
[#8]
The best AR10 for the money is the SigSauer 716i Tread. The LMT MWS is excellent, is battle proven by the Brits in the GWOT, but is a little more than your stated budget. If $2k is top of budget, I say the 716i Tread is the clear choice.
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Posted: 3/1/2024 11:05:15 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GeeLeDouche: Im now leaning towards the PA-10 Sabre M110 knockoff. anyone have any good or bad to say about those? |
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Posted: 3/2/2024 2:05:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: -OdieGreen-]
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By desertmoon: The reviews I have seen aren't all that hot...but PSA has been standing behind their products and the returned and retuned guns seem to be doing well. Yeah I’d look for some reviews too. PSA seems to be struggling with 308’s. If you just want an out of the box shooter, Sig 716i. If you want to customize it to your liking, Ruger SFAR. If the only thing you care about is compatibility with other brands, Aero M5. If you want the absolute best made, MR762 with the M110A1 conversion. |
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MP, USA
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Posted: 3/2/2024 11:35:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: JoshNC]
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By -OdieGreen-: Yeah I’d look for some reviews too. PSA seems to be struggling with 308’s. If you just want an out of the box shooter, Sig 716i. If you want to customize it to your liking, Ruger SFAR. If the only thing you care about is comparability with other brands, Aero M5. If you want the absolute best made, MR762 with the M110A1 conversion. SFAR is neat. A friend has one. It concerns me that it has no common bolt group parts and I suspect at some point it will be discontinued by Ruger. As for the best, that is subjective. I feel that a SR25 PC or CC is the best, followed very closely by the LMT MARS-H with 15” mlock chassis, LW chrome lined barrel. One can pretty easily stock some spare bolts, spare barrels for the LMT to future proof it. And 6.5cm or other 308 size calibers are a simple barrel swap. At current ridiculously inflated second hand SR25 prices, I’d personally opt for the LMT if I was buying today. |
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Posted: 3/2/2024 4:56:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: -OdieGreen-]
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JoshNC: SFAR is neat. A friend has one. It concerns me that it has no common bolt group parts and I suspect at some point it will be discontinued by Ruger. As for the best, that is subjective. I feel that a SR25 PC or CC is the best, followed very closely by the LMT MARS-H with 15” mlock chassis, LW chrome lined barrel. One can pretty easily stock some spare bolts, spare barrels for the LMT to future proof it. And 6.5cm or other 308 size calibers are a simple barrel swap. At current ridiculously inflated second hand SR25 prices, I’d personally opt for the LMT if I was buying today. I’d admit it’s a little bias, but HK stole everyone’s lunch money with the M110A1. They’ve already outsold the M110 in actual delivery. Almost every branch decided they wanted them too. But it’s important to recognize the M110A1 is more of a modern battle rifle. The LMT is a bit in the heavy side and M110 was kind of a disaster so the HK probably had a bit more favor going into it. That of course doesn’t define the best because everyone has different wants and needs, but the M110A1 is starting to look like the most successful 308 the military has adopted. Something about a lightweight tanodized 308 just gets me all hot and bothered though. I’m too poor so I built an SFAR with a sprinkle of M110A1 envy.  Attached File |
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MP, USA
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Posted: 3/2/2024 9:22:31 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By -OdieGreen-: I’d admit it’s a little bias, but HK stole everyone’s lunch money with the M110A1. They’ve already outsold the M110 in actual delivery. Almost every branch decided they wanted them too. But it’s important to recognize the M110A1 is more of a modern battle rifle. The LMT is a bit in the heavy side and M110 was kind of a disaster so the HK probably had a bit more favor going into it. That of course doesn’t define the best because everyone has different wants and needs, but the M110A1 is starting to look like the most successful 308 the military has adopted. Something about a lightweight tanodized 308 just gets me all hot and bothered though. I’m too poor so I built an SFAR with a sprinkle of M110A1 envy. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/61399/IMG_2749_jpeg-3147190.JPG That is a perfectly set up SFAR. The LMT with LW barrel is pretty light, just under 9 lbs unloaded and without optic. The KAC M110k2 and M110k3 are well liked by those who use them. I have a chrome lined PC, several friends have CCs, they are all excellent. But too costly at present due to the only availability being on the second hand market. The HK MR308 would only interest me if they offer a correct barrel. Chrome lined or even nitrided would be fine. They are pigs though. And I’m not a fan of the proprietary mags. I’d rather it take SR25 mags. |
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Posted: 3/2/2024 9:47:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: -OdieGreen-]
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JoshNC: That is a perfectly set up SFAR. The LMT with LW barrel is pretty light, just under 9 lbs unloaded and without optic. The KAC M110k2 and M110k3 are well liked by those who use them. I have a chrome lined PC, several friends have CCs, they are all excellent. But too costly at present due to the only availability being on the second hand market. The HK MR308 would only interest me if they offer a correct barrel. Chrome lined or even nitrided would be fine. They are pigs though. And I’m not a fan of the proprietary mags. I’d rather it take SR25 mags. Yeah HK really dropped the ball putting a heavier untreated barrel in the civilian models. Having them turned down and nitrided is one of the bigger conversion costs since the barrel extension has to be pulled and retorqued. The $80 mags are steep but Lancer, Larue, and KAC mags aren’t cheap by any means either. I’m never going to spend the money on converting one so moot point anyway.  And thanks on the SFAR. Still might put a TA11 on it to shave some weight but hard to justify with how little I shoot it. Everyone who shoots it falls in love and can’t believe it’s a 308 when they pick it up. |
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WV, USA
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Posted: 3/2/2024 10:17:10 PM EDT
[#15]
Seekins SP10 and PWS MK218 without question
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Posted: 3/2/2024 10:21:55 PM EDT
[#16]
Roll your own. Aero receiver sets
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Posted: 3/2/2024 10:31:17 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GeeLeDouche: Im now leaning towards the PA-10 Sabre M110 knockoff. anyone have any good or bad to say about those? As other's have mentioned many reviews have been less than stellar. But it seems they "might" have figured that out. Most complaints were with the factory mags and gassing issues. The factory mag issue is easy just use PMAGs. The ones that had gassing issues sent them back and seem to be fixed. I do have one of the Billet Sabre 10a1. I have approx. 300 rounds so far through it of steel cased 308. I've had zero issues so far. I knew I would run it suppressed most of the time so it installed an ASR brake and I went up to an H2 Buffer (now H3). First 80 rounds were ran without the can. The rest have all been run suppressed (Omega 300). I have played with the AGB and even with adjusting the gas and an H3 buffer it is still a little bit overgassed. |
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MP, USA
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Posted: 3/3/2024 12:22:37 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bigmatt17073: As other's have mentioned many reviews have been less than stellar. But it seems they "might" have figured that out. Most complaints were with the factory mags and gassing issues. The factory mag issue is easy just use PMAGs. The ones that had gassing issues sent them back and seem to be fixed. I do have one of the Billet Sabre 10a1. I have approx. 300 rounds so far through it of steel cased 308. I've had zero issues so far. I knew I would run it suppressed most of the time so it installed an ASR brake and I went up to an H2 Buffer (now H3). First 80 rounds were ran without the can. The rest have all been run suppressed (Omega 300). I have played with the AGB and even with adjusting the gas and an H3 buffer it is still a little bit overgassed. BRT ez-tune gas tube |
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Posted: 3/3/2024 1:54:30 AM EDT
[#19]
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Posted: 3/3/2024 2:48:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Jodan1776]
[#20]
PSA PA10
Good quality, best pricing. Probably Ruger SFAR second, but I don't have one, so no first-hand experience. |
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USA
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Posted: 3/3/2024 12:12:41 PM EDT
[#21]
KAK Industies has/had a blemish sale on uppers, no bcg or charging handle for $299, if your planning on building your own. I already have a faxon match barrel to swap with the barrel on the upper. Not a bad price for an almost complete upper. I’ll sell the barrel that comes with it.
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Posted: 3/3/2024 6:13:27 PM EDT
[#22]
Originally Posted By GeeLeDouche: Ive been eyeballing the Ruger SFAR for a "If you had to pick one" SHTF / Go to rifle. I really like the PSA PA10 lineup also for a budget rifle. Any other suggestions / recommendations to look at in that 1-2K AR10 in 308 that I might be overlooking? Thanks The Gee Daniel Defense DD5V3. Mao approves:  Attached File16", relatively light weight (not the lightest which is OK). CHF, chrome lined barrel. Adjustable gas block. You can easily add whatever pistol grip, handguard and trigger you prefer. My only gripe is that I wish they would have customized the rail and added a larger slot to give you easy access to the gas block for adjustment. Instead of a 3/32" ball end allen wrench, it should be a switch you can adjust with a round or your fingers. Otherwise, ZERO issues. Mao is in love. Helps him stay carbon neutral. |
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Posted: 3/5/2024 1:06:36 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cone256: Roll your own. Aero receiver sets ^This. And have money left over for sights/optic, mags, spares, and ammo compared to buying a turnkey option. |
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Posted: 3/5/2024 1:21:36 PM EDT
[#24]
Now that SFARs are out and cheap, I view the classic DPMS /Knights patterns as the M1 Garands of the AR genre. Neat and served their purpose.
And obsolete dated design and really clunky and heavy. |
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Posted: 3/5/2024 2:39:41 PM EDT
[#25]
716I all the way!
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Posted: 3/5/2024 3:07:51 PM EDT
[#26]
I was comparing my large frame to my sfar last night. The LF is way overbuilt. I hope the SF is not under built. I’m 300+ rounds in on the sf with no issues, and haven’t heard of any breakage issues.
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Posted: 3/5/2024 3:38:57 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lazyengineer: Now that SFARs are out and cheap, I view the classic DPMS /Knights patterns as the M1 Garands of the AR genre. Neat and served their purpose. And obsolete dated design and really clunky and heavy. Not really…they’re just not light duty rifles. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 3/5/2024 5:49:37 PM EDT
[#28]
Little over 2k and get a DD 308. The V3s seem to really run and often throw out some impressive groups, MAC has a great video on it.
I’m tempted to get the psa m110 but it’s getting mixed reviews on reliability with decent accuracy. But they are sexy. |
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MP, USA
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Posted: 3/5/2024 9:14:28 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lazyengineer: Now that SFARs are out and cheap, I view the classic DPMS /Knights patterns as the M1 Garands of the AR genre. Neat and served their purpose. And obsolete dated design and really clunky and heavy. The KAC SR25 and LMT MWS are well proven, well vetted designs. The SFAR is brand new and has a bolt that is only able to sustain 308 due to its very exotic steel. Time will tell if the SFAR holds up. The lmt mlok MWS/mars-h with LW barrel and the KAC CC are both reasonably light weight such that they fit the battle rifle roll well. |
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Posted: 3/5/2024 9:44:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: lazyengineer]
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JoshNC: The KAC SR25 and LMT MWS are well proven, well vetted designs. The SFAR is brand new and has a bolt that is only able to sustain 308 due to its very exotic steel. Time will tell if the SFAR holds up. The lmt mlok MWS/mars-h with LW barrel and the KAC CC are both reasonably light weight such that they fit the battle rifle roll well. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JoshNC: Originally Posted By lazyengineer: Now that SFARs are out and cheap, I view the classic DPMS /Knights patterns as the M1 Garands of the AR genre. Neat and served their purpose. And obsolete dated design and really clunky and heavy. The KAC SR25 and LMT MWS are well proven, well vetted designs. The SFAR is brand new and has a bolt that is only able to sustain 308 due to its very exotic steel. Time will tell if the SFAR holds up. The lmt mlok MWS/mars-h with LW barrel and the KAC CC are both reasonably light weight such that they fit the battle rifle roll well. I share your concern, but to a lesser extent. Sturm Ruger isn't a fly-by-night company, and they - as well as others - do offer SFR in the higher pressure 6.5 Creedmoor, with no warnings or limitations that I am aware of. $1104 https://www.familyfirearms.com/product/ruger-sfar-6.5cm-20-20rd-moesl-blk So it should run .308 for a long time, if it can handle 6.5CM. one item I have yet to see well tested and documented is accuracy. It's possible that by going light their is a critical stiffness tradeoff with the SFAR that will result in a high cost in accuracy. I have no data to suggest this is an issue with the SFAR, but I would like to see it demonstrated as being accurate capable all the same. I'm a little gun-shy, as I do know that I got burned on my DT MDRx in 6.5CM on this, where the gun, while very cool and reliable, is also about a 3 MOA gun with any 1000 yard optimized 6.5CM. A 3 MOA 1000 yard gun - is not a 1000 yard gun. At $2600, that stung a bit.  So I'd like to see and learn more about the Ruger SFAR in 6.5CM, before I buy one. Because despite what people say, selling a gun is actually kind of a PITA. All that being tangential to OP question, but since 6.5CM in SFAR was brought up, there we go - yes, it is offered in 6.5CM.
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IN, USA
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Posted: 3/7/2024 10:42:45 AM EDT
[#31]
I want to like the 716I but the thought of owning a sig product doesn't sit well with me so I'm going DD who are also assholes but the product if it works is solid.
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VEN
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Posted: 3/7/2024 10:58:12 AM EDT
[#32]
another +1 for the DD v3.
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Posted: 3/8/2024 7:38:23 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GLD1980: 716I all the way! Yes. -Rifle length gas -Good barrel profile -Accurate -Mine runs suppressed with no adjustable gas block with multiple types of ammo -NOT gonna melt your debit/credit card |
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Posted: 3/8/2024 10:11:38 PM EDT
[#34]
BTW: another vote for the DEF-10 by Armalite. Damn good carbine.
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MN, USA
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Posted: 3/8/2024 10:27:18 PM EDT
[#35]
I have: JP LRI-20, KAC SR-25 CC, LMT MARS- H MLOK, SIG 716i, WC Recon Tactical, and DD5V3. With a 2-stage trigger, the SIG is 97% of the KAC experience and still a (Indian) military rifle. Spend what you save on good ammo and an LPVO that isn't shit.
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MI, USA
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Posted: 3/8/2024 10:35:06 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lazyengineer: I share your concern, but to a lesser extent. Sturm Ruger isn't a fly-by-night company, and they - as well as others - do offer SFR in the higher pressure 6.5 Creedmoor, with no warnings or limitations that I am aware of. $1104 https://www.familyfirearms.com/product/ruger-sfar-6.5cm-20-20rd-moesl-blk So it should run .308 for a long time, if it can handle 6.5CM. one item I have yet to see well tested and documented is accuracy. It's possible that by going light their is a critical stiffness tradeoff with the SFAR that will result in a high cost in accuracy. I have no data to suggest this is an issue with the SFAR, but I would like to see it demonstrated as being accurate capable all the same. I'm a little gun-shy, as I do know that I got burned on my DT MDRx in 6.5CM on this, where the gun, while very cool and reliable, is also about a 3 MOA gun with any 1000 yard optimized 6.5CM. A 3 MOA 1000 yard gun - is not a 1000 yard gun. At $2600, that stung a bit. So I'd like to see and learn more about the Ruger SFAR in 6.5CM, before I buy one. Because despite what people say, selling a gun is actually kind of a PITA. All that being tangential to OP question, but since 6.5CM in SFAR was brought up, there we go - yes, it is offered in 6.5CM.If the sfar was some kind of hidden jewel, there would be lots of posts "hey look at the great groups I shot with my sfar" and I'm not seeing it. Had a 16" 308. Best groups I got were 1.25"ish with handloads for the m1a. The gun would not run suppressed and I already sent it back once so I let it go. Chewed the shit out of brass too. |
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Posted: 3/8/2024 10:36:19 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Danus_ex: I have: JP LRI-20, KAC SR-25 CC, LMT MARS- H MLOK, SIG 716i, WC Recon Tactical, and DD5V3. With a 2-stage trigger, the SIG is 97% of the KAC experience and still a (Indian) military rifle. Spend what you save on good ammo and an LPVO that isn't shit. Or buy the LMT…still get the KAC experience…and keep your dignity by avoiding the curry rifle. |
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Posted: 3/8/2024 10:42:52 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By heavily_armed: If the sfar was some kind of hidden jewel, there would be lots of posts "hey look at the great groups I shot with my sfar" and I'm not seeing it. Had a 16" 308. Best groups I got were 1.25"ish with handloads for the m1a. The gun would not run suppressed and I already sent it back once so I let it go. Chewed the shit out of brass too. Expecting better than 1.25” out of a 1k dollar AR is like yelling at clouds. |
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Posted: 3/8/2024 10:44:39 PM EDT
[#39]
I am really liking my Armalite. It was GTG right outta the box but it'll still never replace my SOCOM
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MI, USA
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Posted: 3/8/2024 11:21:32 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DVCER: Expecting better than 1.25” out of a 1k dollar AR is like yelling at clouds. Accuracy was fine. Reliability was not. |
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Posted: 3/13/2024 12:43:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Frank762]
[#41]
Just before the commies assassinated gun rights in Washington, I put together an Aero M5.
It has a 20 inch barrel with an A2/full size buffer. I wish I would have built one sooner. |
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Posted: 3/13/2024 7:19:55 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By heavily_armed: Accuracy was fine. Reliability was not. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By heavily_armed: Originally Posted By DVCER: Expecting better than 1.25” out of a 1k dollar AR is like yelling at clouds. Accuracy was fine. Reliability was not. I hope they get it figured out. The Ruger seems hit or miss, mine is a hit. Small frame is the way. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 3/14/2024 1:42:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: cspackler33]
[#43]
I want the SFAR to be my favorite choice. I don't have one due to some mixed reviews. I'm not sure I'd trust the smaller bolt for a "go-to shtf" gun only because I'm old and still hung up on past x39 bolt issues (I have a couple + a Grendel that all work but I wouldn't be grabbing them for fighting).
The most important attributes of a fighting gun for me are: 1.Reliable 2.Durable 3.Accurate 4.Ergonomic 5.Easily accessorized (optic attachment) 6.Ubiquitous (spare parts) so until the small frame becomes more than just #4/5, I'll stick with an AR-15. All that being said, for a 308 I like my 716i since it's pretty good at all but #6 above. I admit that most of my belief in its 1&2 come from the use by Indian military  but it's been perfect for me. My LR308 is gtg for #2,3,5,6 but #1 took several parts changes.What my stg58 lacks in #4,5 it makes up for by being cool. VEPR has #1,2 but none of the rest (mine is x54 but I'm using it as an example of AK type battle rifle). |
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