Couple of questions related to sending and receiving C&R firearms.

Am I correct in saying:

As a C&R holder, I have no additional abilities to ship firearms than someone without a C&R license?  So I can't use USPS to ship handguns or anything they consider "concealable firearms", and to use UPS and Fed EX, it's a hassle involving being part of their dealer shipping program and so forth?

But, as a C&R holder, I can receive, from any of USPS/UPS/Fed Ex, any firearm that's a C&R, be it handgun, rifle, shotgun, or machine gun?

Thus, if the C&R firearm is in possession of a FFL dealer, they can send it to me via any method.  If it's with either a C&R holder, or a non-C&R holder, they can mail me a rifle/shotgun/MG (unless it's a SBR MG) via USPS, but for a handgun, for all intensive purposes, they'll need to get a FFL dealer to send that to me.

This is just for the actual shipping aspect, I realize there are record keeping requirements beyond that of a non C&R holder.

Thanks,

All handguns that ship USPS you need an FFL ( Business FFL) and fill out form PS1508 , unless they changed it.
No restrictions on long guns.

Shipping handguns Fedex or UPS....as I understand their policy is an internal policy and not law.

But zero restrictions on me a receiving any firearm type that's a C&R, from any shipper, is that correct?  The hassle is in shipping it, not receiving it, if I understand all the laws and rules correctly.

The shipping FFL has to file a Post Office form 1508 in order to ship a concealable weapon.  On this form , the dealer FFL has to certify that the receiving FFL IS A DEALER.

Yes, its a hassle.



No.
UPS and FedEx will deliver to you, but for USPS....only rifles or shotguns. Handguns and other conceable firearms are only mailable between licensed dealers and manufacturers.




Handguns can be shipped to you via UPS or FedEx.
Rifle and shotguns via USPS/UPS/FedEx.



They'll need to have that dealer ship a handgun via UPS or FedEx.

USPS calls it "licensed dealer or manufacturer".
Yes, I still have to fill out a 1508.



Correct.
But if they discover that you are shipping in violation of their policies, they don't have to continue with the shipment and could let your gun sit in Bum Fuck Egypt for months while you write letters to your Congressman.

No.
As noted above, a licensed dealer or manufacturer has to certify on the USPS Form 1508 that the firearm is being shipped to another licensed dealer or manufacturer.

Good information, thank you.

Then what about all those dealers shipping C&R directly to C&R holders? They're not dealers.

Again, a licensed dealer can ship a C&R firearm directly to a C&R license using USPS/UPS/FedEx for rifles or shotguns, using FedEx or UPS for handguns.
Again, USPS allows only licensed dealers and manufacturers to ship firearms other than rifles or shotguns.

If a licensed dealer or manufacturer mails a C&R handgun to an licensed collector he violates USPS regs. (a felony)

Thanks

There is one small loophole listed on the USPS site. If the "C&R also qualifies as an "antique", it can be mailed between collectors.

They aren't going to enroll you at a customer service center.
Try [email protected] (the account rep that did mine two years ago)
and
[email protected]

delete

This is in publication 52 from the USPS...

432.2 Handguns

Handguns and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person are nonmailable unless mailed between the parties listed in this section, after the filing of an affidavit or statement described in 432.22 or 432.24, and are subject to the following:

   A. Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 431.2 and the definition of curios or relics under 27 CFR 478.11 may be mailed between curio and relic collectors only when those firearms also meet the definition of an antique firearm under 431.3.

   B. Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 431.2, which are certified by the curator of a municipal, state, or federal museum that exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest, may be accepted for mailing between governmental museums without regard to the
       restrictions provided for handguns in 432.21 through 432.24 and Exhibit 432.25.

   C. Air guns (see 431.6) that do not fall within the definition of firearms under 431.1 and are capable of being concealed on a person are mailable, but must include Adult Signature service under DMM 503.8. Mailers must comply with all applicable state and local regulations.

   D. Parts of handguns are mailable, except for handgun frames, receivers or other parts or components regulated under Chapter 44, Title 18, U.S.C.

   E. Mailers are also subject to applicable restrictions by governments of a state, territory, or district.

https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c4_009.htm

So what handguns meet "the definition of an antique firearm under 431.3?



ATF does not consider the above as a "firearm" under the GCA '68. Which also means they aren't Curios & Relics.

ATF regs don't always jibe with USPS regs.

You can absolutely ship an antique pistol (anything made in or before 1898) through USPS from C&R holder to C&R holder or better. If either party is not atleast a C&R holder, you cannot.

Previously, all my C&R items have been shipped by license holders, so they figured out the shipping aspects.

In reading over the USPS regulations:

https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c4_009.htm

It doesn't appear that a non-C&R holder may mail a C&R non-concealable rifle or shotgun, to a C&R license holder if they're in another state.  Though it's fully OK by ATF, just not by USPS

The above regulations talk first about what can be mailed by a non-license holder, and rifles and shotguns that are not concealable can be mailed.  As discussed, handguns are always forbidden unless you have a 01 FFL or are a manufacturer or importer, so let's not discuss those again.

As for mailing rifles and shotguns (Section 432.3), part D states:

Rifles and shotguns may be mailed by a non-FFL owner domestically to a FFL dealer, manufacturer, or importer in any state.

But that doesn't mean 03 C&R FFL holder, that only refers to 01 FFL and other types.

The only section about C&R is part E:

Except as described in 432.3a, licensed curio and relic collectors may mail firearms meeting the definition of curios or relics under 27 CFR 478.11 domestically to licensed FFL curio and relic collectors in any state. These items must be mailed using a class of mail, product, or Extra Service that provides tracking and signature capture at delivery


So if you have a 03 you can mail rifles and shotguns to other 03's.  But it doesn't say that non-FFL types can mail them to 03's.  

To be honest, it also doesn't say that 01 FFL's can mail them to 03's.  03 to 03, and 01 to 01, but it doesn't mention 01 to 03, though every company like AIM Surplus or Atlantic Firearms does that daily.

In general, the Postal Regulations are poorly written, as a non-FFL can mail a non-FFL a rifle or shotgun in the same state (same as ATF regulations).  But they don't seem to be able to mail a rifle or shotgun to a 03 out of state, though that's fine by ATF.

In addition, the way it's written, no one even 01 FFL's can mail a SBR or SBS.  Section 432.1, part B states Short-barreled rifles or shotguns that can be concealed on the person are nonmailable.

Now the Handgun section states: Handguns and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person are nonmailable unless mailed between the parties listed in this section, after the filing of an affidavit or statement described in 432.22 or 432.24, and are subject to the following: and I guess the bolded section is what people hang their hat on for mailing short barrel rifles and shotguns, and people don't get in trouble for it.  But this section just mentions "other firearms" which I supposed could be AOW's or Shockwave style shotguns, and the section before it states that SBR's and SBS's are non-mailable.

There's also an error in their regulations - the C&R sections refers to 432.3a, which is incorrect, as it should be 432.2a which says an antique C&R handgun is OK to ship.  They can't even proof read their own regulations.

Yup.



That applies to everyone, but the next section 432.2 applies to handguns as defined by USPS....... SBR/SBS are concealable on the person, classified by USPS as "handguns" for the purposes of mailing.


AOW's, SBS, SBR are all firearms capable of being concealed on the person.

It's just terribly written.  The first section says SBR and SBS are unmailable.  It doesn't say that about handguns.

Then the handgun sections babbles on about other firearms capable of being concealed on the person but doesn't specifically list SBR's and SBS's as being OK.  And right above it said they were unmailable.  

So everyone is left to figuring that it's OK cuz those are concealable and concealable items are OK to mail if you have a 01 or such, and just ignore the statement about unmailablity.  Pififul.

With regards to the C&R aspect - what are surplus dealers hanging their hat on for mailing C&R rifle and shotguns to 03 FFL's?  Do the companies have 03 FFL's as well as being 01's and importers, so they are covered via Part E?

Talk about dumb - you can mail 03 to 03, but not 01 to 03, which is a far more vigorous license to obtain than the hobby level 03.  But what do you expect from regulations that don't even refer to the correct section (432.3a, and not the correct 432.2a).

An 03FFL Curio & Relic cannot deal in firearms. If a "surplus dealer" has only an 03 he is in violation of federal law. He would need a 01Dealer.


USPS ain't got time to keep up with ATF regs. And vice versa.

Then how are 01 FFl's sending 03 C&R holders C&R riles and shotguns via USPS?  I don't see a provision in the USPS regulations that allows this.

I'm glad they do and no one seems to mind, but where's the language that allows 01 to 03 mailing?  03 to 03 yes, in Part E, hence my idea that surplus vendors have an 03 as well as an 01 to be able to mail via Part E.

Nothing in USPS regs prohibits mailing any rifle or shotgun. Whether its classified as a C&R by ATF doesn't matter. A nonlicensee can mail an AR 15 manufactured last week to himself at an address in another state.




There's no language that prohibits a dealer, importer or manufacturer from mailing a C&R rifle or shotgun to a licensed collector.