I made this separate to be easier to find for new folks and post accuracy/groups..errors..broken parts. ect.




Quick look for the accuracy..Not my typical procedure..because there were other issues..

Gen 1 MDR side by side the Gen 3 Wlvrn.
Mdr (1:8 Twist) was set up with a Eotech and 3x magnifier.
Wlvrn (1:7 Twist)  was set up with an ARKEN 1-8x24.
(No targets were recovered..Cell Phone and 1 Tactacam image in the vid)

                                                MDR vs  WLVRN
69gr Federal Gold Medal Match      1.04moa   -   1.55moa**
73gr Federal Gold Medal Match      2.67moa   -   2.37moa*
85gr Barnes Otm  ---------------      2.05moa   -   1.53moa*

* Could not use the center aiming dot..Washed out against my target..Horseshow aiming only..
** Malfunctions related to a less than reliable mag..Pmag only going forward.

Very nice work on the first WLVRN review!  Even beat out all of the paid youtubers!

Nice video, looking forward to the next one!

Thankyou!
I'm hoping to get a 10 shot group in just for you.

Thanks for doing this!  I put more faith behind reviews done by individuals over guntubers* (For the most part)

Nice video. It would seem the wlvrn is a turd. I hope DT gets it running well. It’s a great looking rifle.

Thank you!!!

Facebook 308 Wlvrn owner.
1 (5) shot group each ammo

308 WLVRN
75 Yards (image calibrated using the 1inch squares)
1-8 Primary Arms Platinum Gen 1
Huxworks muzzle device (No suppressor used for this test).

PPU 168gr - 1.29moa
Fed Gold Medal 168gr - 1.55 moa

Something I noticed that did not occur in the MDR or my MDRX.
MAC also mentioned it in his video.

The Wlvrn front receiver section not as precise a fit as the previous gen rifles. Its kinda like an AR 15 upper/lower that doesn't fit perfectly(the movement in the front pin section of the WLVRN)..
Also..My Center take down pin doesn't seem to be making the same level of contact as the MDR either.*Rattles*

Wlvrn
https://i.imgur.com/jeeiKSx.mp4

MDR
https://i.imgur.com/kWKzOld.mp4

I also took the WVLRN lower off and put in onto the MDR..The amount of wiggle between the Polymer and Aluminum receiver vanished..
This says to me the issue is in the Aluminum receiver.

Looks like the shooter, from where you took the images on facebook, only posted best groups.  He had a follow up image showing on average it sent a flier that expanded the group 1 moa... like the MDRx issues KS ARG ran into with their testing.  Imgur album of the 2 best groups and the average group here.  His image shows the average is 2.48 moa in 308.

https://imgur.com/a/UNXTkng



Note:  The 'average group image' was not captured parallel to the target.  As such the reported MOA calculation tool will be inaccurate.  If an image is captured with an angle to it, a MOA reporting tool will report a smaller MOA group than if it was face on.  Because angles.

I went back out to the range today to shoot some more 223 WLVRN!!!

ShotCam wasn't up for the suppressed groups (it was for the unsuppressed) but I was able to shoot 2 (5) shot groups each.
Below is the Average of the groups for their respective munitions (Best of images pictured)
Shot on the Normal (-) setting

Link to the groups if you want a visual.
I also have the unmeasured targets marked with the shot/round numbers as I was able to review footage to see what went where.
 

75gr Hornady Match  BTHP 223
1.26moa Average  Suppressed
1.71moa Average Unsuppressed
-0.45moa Suppressed

*From the Unsuppressed group.0.75moa 4 shot


73gr Federal Gold Medal Match
2.07 Suppressed
1.60 Average Unsuppressed
+0.47 Suppressed

69gr Federal Gold Medal Match    
1.65moa Average Suppressed.
2.13moa Average Unsuppressed
-0.5moa difference Suppressed


85gr Barnes Otm
1.65moa Average Suppressed.
**[i][url=https://imgur.com/Ocf93Gx]Best group of the session at 0.84moa[[/url]/i]**
Shot both the best and worst. Worst was entirely do to shooter error.
4 of the shots are in a 0.3moa group

69gr Nosler Match Grade Rifle Ammunition 223 Rem.
2.45moa Average  (suppressed)
2.02moa Average Unsuppressed This would probably be second best..But Shot #1 of the second group is the one by #6.Those were all good trigger pulls and target
+0.43moa Suppressed
*1 super tight 4 shot group at 1moa.*
 

62gr fmj (556) Hornady Black
2.29moa -Average Suppressed
2.61moa  - Average  Unsuppressed
-0.32 Suppressed.

(1) Malfunction..73gr Fed Gold Medal Match.A round was still loaded but failed to fully eject this cartridge.

Dont mind that little red thing in my takedown pin..Its part of a ballon from my kids bday party and it fills in the space the Wlvrn upper is missing when it makes contact with the polymer lower..
With out it..that front end gets a bit sloppy.

I think Ill do another trip,but bring my lead sled.

Thanks for the testing

Nice work!

0.5 moa swing with suppressor is an impressive data point.

Looks to be neck and neck with the mdrx .223 results of yesteryear.

I appreciate the continued testing.

Do you think you would get better results with a different optic? I know I prefer a whole lot more mag when shooting paper at 100. And its a little crazy to have a sub $500 scope on a $2500 rifle

With that jam, what is the casing caught on? Can't be the bolt if the next round loaded fine. Wonder if it would have simply been knocked out of the way when you fired the next round?

Ah but its only $2500 if I bought the 308..Which I didn't end up with first... Bullpups, unfortunately skew the meta on what optics to use because they all (except the Rdb) come in around 1.5k- 2.5k.
I don't think a 2k bullpup is equivalent to a 2k bolt gun 2k AR15/10.Especially with all the nice options you can find in those rifles/or build into them for that price.


You probably also wont like that I shoot my buddies 11K rifle with 500$ optic..
Like This here Arken..

Tell ya what, Ill put a 5-35x56 Optic on (pretty sure that one cost me 500$) when I start testing the 308 kit. Once I'm done playing Youtuber (maybe see how many sub moa groups I can get with the 85gr Barnes) or grab some, Ill probably transfer the MDR Holographic and 3x magnifier to the WLVRN and call it good.
I saw this today..Looks like CBM was using 40gr Fiocchi..I know where some is..
https://www.guns.com/news/2020/03/10/desrt-tech-mdrx-review

I figured, cheaper expense for an optic this means more money for ammo and more ammo is more reps right?


I tried to put the stoppage in a quick vid.
The Jam got caught between the BCG (exterior) and the poly fencing of the ejection port.

Seriously, they have that much slop?  On a $2600 rifle?

Wow.

If you like that..Your gonna love this.
vs the MDR

MAC mentioned it in his video as a mostly a big nothing burger..
The issue also doesn't exist when I put the Wlvrn lower onto an MDR/MDRX upper..So..its in the Wlvrn upper,this excess movement.

That would drive me bunkers ... that said ... I don't mind DIY fixes to tighten up upper/lower fit ... I do it to all my AR based platforms ... but usually bullies don't have that issue ...

Here's hoping they fix that.

Yeah but on a $2600 rifle?   Yeah, no.

On the Live Chat today, Desert Tech mentioned this issue and indicated they'd be looking into resolving it.  I've really loved how DT almost always responds to comments & complaints about their products.

Yea, they did a decent job - though Ibsaw they were selective on what questions they answered.  

I might check out their JBWeld and gas piston update package for MDRx owners.  If that will tighten my accuracy up, I might just keep it.  We'll see!

The JB weld solution was an interesting surprise.  An Adhesive was proposed by KS ARG nearly 2 years ago as well as using load bearing press fit pins to keep it from shifting.

I guess JB Weld solution is easy.  At least they are exploring it, but the cost of a Rifle tear down and reassembly with take take some time.

It was interesting through.  WLVRN is up to 30% more accurate than the MDRX.
The MDRx JB weld and upgrade kit solution is 25 to 40%.

The good news is if they roll it out then the rest of us can glue in our Trunnions without voiding warranty.

Somewhere on the order of 200 people dialed in to the DT MDRx live-video yesterday.  It was interesting and worth the listen, some good, some not.  Here are a few highlights I got out of it:

I don't know the presenters, but there were 2 - with one being the chief engineer(?)/ decision maker - and the younger guy being more support and business, it looked like.

-Barrel finish: The developers find and say that when it comes to maloniting vs chrome lining - that yes, maloniiting has a "faster" erosion rate, but in the end, the same effective barrel life.  This is because a CL barrel in their tests tends to have poorer accuracy to start with.  So a malonited BBL will erode to 4 MOA performance at about the same round-count a CL barrel erodes to 4 MOA, and both need to be repleaced; with the malonited barrel having the advantage of being a more accurate barrel in the first half of its life, while the CL barrel is already not shooting very good even then.  It was an interesting take.  Or to resate, CL rresilience is oversold, and in the end they both get the same life-span to no longer servicable.

-Caliber: For DMR roll, both of them were quick to say 6.5CM is the way to go.  I get the impression that their 6.5CM sales are likely their lowest, yet both of them seem to be fans of that round, and appreciate its benefits (which I do, too).  

-WLVR-LEAN: I asked twice if they were going to make a 5.56 class chassy for additional weight savigns (and make it in 6.5 Grendel too, while I'm wishing for stuff).  They didn't really answer that, which pretty much answers that.

-Full-Auto.   Apparently DT was (optimistically) trying to chase some govt contract.  And so wanted the gun full auto capable.  ATF was making that a PITA.  It sounds like they have given up on that, and somehow that affected them able to do better on WLVRN?  Amd somehow this affected the name change too? I didn t quite follow all of that - but he did mention they actually talk to and work with .mil a lot on a lot of things.  But hush hush like.  Which might even be true I suppose.

-Pistol grip.  Apparentlybnot AR compatible and never will be, because developer had a bad experience with AR pistol grips coming loose on him.  (So.. what, the MDR pistol grip works better with locktight on the screw threads and a lock washer?   I didn't really understand this, but don't really care either - factory grip is fine).

-Lifetime warrentee:  This one pissed of a lot of people; and probably should - as they are very aware of how powerful and meaningful the words "Lifetime warrenee" are, and use those words.  And then crawfish away from that pretty bad.  Because unlike other companies where that means you get the most similar current production model, if your model is out of production - DT does not do that.  Lifetime warrentee at DT means for the lifetime of that product being in production.  And then whatever spare parts they still have.  Considering on this product line, lifetime is on the order of 3 years, what that really means is a 3 year warrentee (if you bought at the front end that is), and then maybe 10 years more if they still have the parts.  For a $2600 gun, that sucks.

-Metallurgy.  It was asked if they were going to do titanium.  The answer was no, because TI is heavier than Aluminum.  Maybe magnesium if they wantted to lighter, but they probably won't.  I actually agree, titanium is an attractive exotic, but in truth, modern Aluminum practices are actually better than Ti; from the insiders I know at least.


-QC.  Someone took a snipe at them over this, and I was surprised to see they actually took this one.  And stated they are chasing ISO9000 and have gotten better.  Which probably is actually true.  And sure: that's a complement- as well as a dig that they were little better than monkies banging rock's together at first.

-MDRx accurazing kits:  So apparently they are going to come out with a kit to replace your piston and piston rod, and to JBWeld your trunion to your reciever, which they think will improve the accuracy of an MDRx.  I'm curious and interested.  Though shudder at what their price-point will likely be...

-WLVRN ejection: there is no plan for FE, and MDRx Forward Eject parts won't work.   Between this point, and the above point - I kind of like the FE.  Yes, it adds a lot of weight (A LOT of weight), but it's cool.  If I can make my own MDRx tighten up to a 1.5MOA gun that doesn't flex and recoil throwing random rounds between here and Toledo, via that kit... I might.  The FE was one of the key differntiators of the MDRx bullpup.

-Moving the gas port and system.  Not likely to happen, as they are fixated on a cross platform, and need the gas port and system to work for everything from a 20" 6.5CM, to an SBR'd .300BO.  Technologically, I think that's asking a lot, and I think the longer rifle precision attempts suffer for this, while the shorter 300BO rigs still fight being undergassed at the same time.  I think they need to move the damned gas port location.  Expecting an 11" .300 BO gun and a 20" 6.5Creedmoor gun to have the same gas-port location is just not good engineering.  Use a short AR gas tube if you have to, but no - that's just not a great path.

- Foregrips - upgraded foregrips are interchangeable, though very little else is.

-Rear pin - apparently I'm not the only one who's rear pin on my MDRx pops during live-fire.  It's not actually important, as it still is engaged and keeps the gun together, but it does partially pop out a 1/4", which is annoying.  And so they fixed that on WLVRN, but that fix isn't backward compatitible.

-Front pin - I guess thank you to the early purchasers, because they are aware of the slop issue, and are redesigning some things to address teh loose front-pin issue by adjusting some reciever/frame dimensions.  (no word on what will happen with early units)

-Accuracy.  To get the gun accurate, you will need to run a supressor.  Not in so many words, but that was my take-away.  Which for those that run supressed, that's awesome.  For those who do not (me), that is total horseshit.  Make your gun run as delivered.  Expecting your customer base to drop an additional $1000 on an NFA regulated item that they may not even be able to do, is not OK.  I will say, if your interest is in the 5.56 version - that notably milder round won't flex the gun much at all, and those can be pretty good accurate.  But if you want to run .308 / 6.5CM, so far it's been a rough road with that short gas system and flexing system with the MDRx.  Improved by using a surpessor.  For them to suggest that advantage is still there with WLVRN, suggests that root problem may well still be there too.  Oh, and as a bonus, they then scolded folks who run overgassed when supressed, damaging the gun.   Which that raises a whole string of new questions I'm not even going to bother with.

Where is LazyEngineer?  Currently in Wait&See.
Again, my own goal was a one-gun-for-everything-gun, which the 6.5CM MDRx had potential to do, but in the end is quite heavy for CQB (though the dimensions are good), and not accurate enough for long range shooting that 6.5CM is all about.  I am hopeful between either the MDRx accuraziing kit, or the WLVRN replacement, that accuracy can be improved, with my criteria being 1.5MOA all day, even with heavy ammo.  Not ALL ammo, but I need options in the heavy spectrum that won't randomly throw shots outside 5 ring on the left..  I can sort of do it, with light bullets loaded to 6.5 Grendel+ power level; but that's a poor solution.  So maybe I can get there - and am studying field reports intensely.

Thanks for this, good summary.

I think I am going to wait as well.  Until they decide on a full length gas system for the full power stuff.

IMHO one of the biggest draws of the MDRX & now the WLVRN is that it is a SINGLE PLATFORM capable of running very different calibers.  So I'm okay with that.



The current ATF Goons are probably insisting that the Full Auto Version be almost a completely different setup, and not easily converted from the Semi Auto ones.



Yeah, this sucks for those already with an MDR/X, but it isn't actually too unusual.  If Sig Sauer had a lifetime warranty for the MCX Virtus, would owners rightfully expect to have parts or possibly the entire weapon replaced by the Spear LT components?  The price & cost of improving a product sometimes means there will be folks who are left behind on the older platform.  It isn't pretty, but it is understandable.



I was never sold on the Forward Eject system.  Since the rifle can quickly be changed over for Left handed shooters, it seemed more of a gimmick to me.  But I do understand that there were many who liked it.



Well that cross platform multi caliber ability is also what sets the DT MDRX & now the WLVRN apart from other bullpups.  So I totally understand them not dropping it.



I didn't get the idea that a suppressor was needed for better accuracy from what they said.  Maybe I missed something or maybe you're reading into something that wasn't there.

I think this was only a partial answer from them.  Moving the gas block forward would still retain the multi caliber ability.  The answer they gave was more they didn't want to do the design work to allow it to move forward in the existing chassis.  I.E. have a different barrel cut that allows the same gas block to be mounted farther forward with a longer piston, like how the MCX operates or any number of other piston rifles with swappable barrel kits.

Their answer was simply they didn't want to spend the money to make the Rifle more accurate/more efficient with the gas system for the long barrel/heavy calibers.

That's my exact take as well.   Though I think it has less to do with "spend the money" than spend the effort.  Most of the WOLVRN updates are pretty basic and incremental.  There's nothing that profound - they did away with the removable trunion (which was always a terrible idea), and did away with the FE system - which is where the weight savings actually is.  The rest are just minor dimensional change tweaks; most of which are error corrections.  Like the terrible pic-rail on top of the gas-block, rear pins that pop loose, etc.

as to the appeal of the "modularity" of being able to change calibers, almost nobody actually does this. The cost of doing so is so prohibitive, just buy another dedicated gun.  Same reason I never bought separate barrels for my AUG.  The barrel costs more than a complete AR15.  Also, I don't buy an AR10 and celebrate the ability to put in a block and upper swap to 5.56.    Ok Ok, that's a little bit of trash-talking, because the nice thing about WLVRN is they really did do such a good job of weight savings, that it's lighter than a lot of other bullpups, even 5.56 ones while this one is .308 capable.  That is a nice improvement, I'll admit.  

So when does the next generation of the Wlvrn come out?

2-3 years depending on user feedback

This is a deal breaker.   The life of the product?  lol.   That’s amazingly short for a DT bullpup.   Total BS.  

I’ll watch what others experience, but they’ll never get a dime from me.  We’ll see if they backtrack on it.

We just got our first 308 range report from Texas Plinking, was reported on Reddit.

His assessment is that it isn't a precision Rifle and the accuracy is poor, not designed for long range.  Significantly worse than 1 MOA.  175g FGMM.  No suppressor.

No group images.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L98gToroC-E&t=324

Looks like the new boss is the same as the old boss in that department.

..Well..the Mdrx didn't like most 175s either..

I mean he tried one load and we dont even have a pic of the group. No idea on his skill level with precision semi autos. I wouldn't put any stock in that.

My thoughts as well. His content is usually pretty shallow so I doubt he spent much time trying to see what the rifle could really get.

Agreed, definitely a single data point and not a good one at that.  Hopefully we get a few better sets of data over the weekend.

Well I was hoping to get some accuracy results today, ended up wasting a bunch of match ammo because the muzzle brake and shims I swapped out was apparently not perfectly aligned. I was getting some awful and erratic groups unsuppressed, and once I put the suppressor on, I got a poi shift at 100 yards in excess of 2 feet. It was shooting erraticly, and didn't see any Strikes. Back at the shop I checked it again, and could see a slight misalignment and a spot in the oss can where bullets were rubbing and causing the massive shift. I have since changed muzzle device to one that doesn't need to be indexed, and doesn't need shims and looks perfect now.

That said, I was able to run a little over 200 rounds thru it, mostly ok. I have some videos I'm gonna compile and hopefully release this week along with first impressions.

Also it did not like 25 round pmags, and lancer 20 or 25s.

Aw man - I HATE range days like that!  

FWIW, my 6.5 MDRx loves 25 round PMags and it's nominal default operations mag are Lancer 20's.  At one time there was a reputation of problems with 25round PMags, but I thought they fixed that - as mine never had issue.  Not sure what to say, that sounds annoying as well.

Well, good luck next time and please keep us posted!

Ya it sucks, not sure if I'm more sad about time or money wasted 😂. But I'm glad I found the possible issue, it was very disheartening driving back home thinking it's gonna pattern like a shotgun. I should have stopped when the groups were starting to be erratic, but I had limited time and more determination than smarts.

25 round pmags,  25 and 20 round lancers were popping out. I have footage, so when I compile the first video I'll show that.

RIGHT!  I had that issue with an AR10.  The fix I did was to just carefully file the top part of the latch hole in the magazine a tiny bit (like <1/64"), and then they'd latch.  A tolerance issue, that's really on DT - but you can "fix".  Mags run fine in all other guns still.  Understood if you don't want to do that - but that how you can make that work if you want to.

Since those holes aren't all the way through, you have to do this with care with a small diameter side-grinding-bit in a Dremel.

Part of me was prepared mentally to tweak things here and there given DT reputation. Gonna try avoiding modifications on it for now. Want to make sure it's going to be good overall first.

You could probably do the same thing with the mag retention bar.  Worse case scenario is you get a new one.  They are cheap and were offered for sale direct on the website.

Not the gun.  The mag bodies.   But if you can get a spare latch, there you go

Ya the 25 round mag issue is future me problems. My focus now will be to retry my accuracy shooting.

I hate bad range days..Tho..Not as bad as yours..I did have one earlier..Yesterdays was largely a success..Played musical scopes...Shot several rounds thinking I was zeroed..Oh well..
Ill also be throwing together a video maybe by Saturday with my accuracy results.

Well Saturday I went back out to the range with my 223 Wlvrn.
Brought 2 of the same ammo I had out the last 2 times from comparison and 3 new ones (The Nosler 77gr I thought was the same as the last test..I was wrong..)
These were all shot with my Cobalt Kinetics Qd Muzzle brake. No suppressor this day.
2 (5) shot groups were shot for most groups.
Total Round count: 265 rounds

Below is a Summary across all 3 range session

I continue to use the 69 Fed Gold Medal due to that being the round used in Desert Tech Rivalry series for the MDRx in both FE and SE from the 11.5 Micron to the 20"
So far..223 Wlvrn is AS accurate using "best group to best group" vs the MDRX in 223. In the rivalry series, all but the 20" side eject averaged 1.1moa best group(s)..The 20" MDRxSE looks like an outlier (its also 1 of 2 vids CBM wasn't present. Guess which one the other was and it wasn't the 6.5CM).

Best round in the Wlvrn so far is now the Fiocchi Field 40gr Vmax.It also shot sub minute 50% of the time.In winds gusting up to 11mph.

I also picked up the Fiocchi 40gr due to an old MDRX article by CBM presenting the Best group he shot from his MDRX (suppressed). Its an affordable round at 0.65cpr and I may go back out with my HxWorks suppressor to see if that shrinks the group any more..

Below is the specific results from the weekend.
*Best of Images shown.
Targets #2 and #1 showing what the shot #s were as I saw them in the Tactacam later.
Group Average is in ( )
Fiocchi 40gr Vmax.0.73,1.58, 0.91,1.95 (1.29moa)


Barnes 85gr OTM ..1.72,1.29 (1.5moa )


Fed Gold 69gr BTHP ...1.11,1.85moa (1.48moa)


Nosler 55gr 55fgr Varmagadon..1.66,2.54 (2.04)


77gr Nosler Match ..2.12*
*Only 1 (5) shot group.

Those groups are looking pretty solid. Looks like its really a matter of finding the right load for the rifle. Will be interesting to see if a can improves things, and if the .308 can maintain the same general level of precision.

Its also interesting there doesn't seem to be any correlation between bullet weight and group size.

Gun is still having issues. My accuracy testing set up was janky so I didn't get groups as well as I think it's capable of.

Nice work!

I think my only real concern is that half your retest groups in the same ammo double in size by 1 MOA greater than your best groups.  MOA of a rifle isn't supposed to be 'average' of all the groups.  It is the worst of all the groups fired.  I.E. if you shot 40 times on a target and then shot 8 5 shot groups and stacked all 5 shot groups your should get roughly the same MOA.  MOA is the size of the circle where 100% of all shots fired from your gun land at any time.

Hopefully the wind is to blame.

But the lack of repeatability is a bit concerning.

48 minutes of review?  Impressive!  I am going to need to carve some time to watch it.

That first 1 minute intro doesn't sound amazingly promising for your review of the WLVRN.

My assumption is the can will improve my groups..But the reality may be different...but it did in my 308 Mdrx..

As far a bullet weight stuff..I always thought of that as a guideline..308 seems alot Pickier with good ammo then 223 it seems.

Gotta see if my 40gr fiocchi groups end up as small as Cbms

But 10shot groups are pending just for you.



Hrmm.Your experience sounds like Hops experience with the Ruger Sfar..Light weight 308 than needs a bit of tuning to run right. Maybe I got lucky with 308 Mdrx and Rfb17. Those both worked right out of the box.

I will point out that,I don't think Dt can move the gas block any further back as that's where your charging handles are connected.

I 100% agree the tavor 7 mag release is better. Lighter too.

Also weird...That mag drop problem is present.I swear they fixed that in the 308 Mdrx.

Great vid! I watched all of it. Can't wait to see part 2.