This just pooped up in my YT feed. Figured I'd share it with you NV Sweat Hogs.  

Too bad the Invisible Sight ones take so long to be manufactured and shipped.

If Somogear just did a couple of additional things they'd be a great buy all day long.

What else would you like to see Somo do?  I have one but haven't used it yet.  (I haven't watched the video yet)

I wish the Somogear mount was a 1:1 of the real NGAL, which it is not.  The Invisbible Sight NGAL's mount is a direct match to real one.  Below is a video showing the play that the Somogear has on a BCM KMR15.  I have also read other reports about rail mounting issues with the Somogear.

I'd like it if the Somogear had actual diffussers, which it doesn't they're just covers. Whereas th Invisible Sight has actual diffusers that function.

It would be cool of the Somogear had a water proof rating like the real NGAL.  I'm not clear on how water resistant it is yet, because I haven't seen anyone like torture test the thing with water.  

I ordered the real NGAL caps from TNVC last week and received them on Friday! Expensive but total game changer for the ir laser bloom and the ir light cap is perfect for up close / indoors. TNVC said they where back ordered for 8-12 weeks but they must have found a set laying around because they shipped two days later.

Got my L3 filters too - mine came with KY Jelly.  My SG fits tight AF on an Aero Rail. I Echo the water resistance question - there was one guy in here that said the rain made his wonky until he dried it out. N=1, wish the MR Ranch guy would douse them with water.

Must be nice to be able to order the real thing.

Yeah, I don't need it to survive full submersion (although that would be cool if it did) since I'm not planning doing any combat dives anytime soon, but I'd like to see just sit under a sprinkler and see how it did afterwords.  In other words, can this thing hold up to a rainy day?

Did you torque to a spec of anykind?  Be neat if there was like a list of rails that folks found that it worked well on.  

That is interesting.  

https://tnvc.com/shop/l3harris-spares-program-ngal-next-generation-aiming-laser/

Shows in stock for me.

Same. Got my L3 diffusers last week. They really are necessary for up close work on small steel targets.

I'm the guy that had it malfunction when out in the rain.

Had a friend's unit go down as well at the same event. He didn't have a switch port plug installed, so slightly different circumstances/conditions.

Again, sample size of 1 and I haven't kept track of anyone else that encountered the same. Seems like everyone else is keeping theirs nice and dry.

@WTFShane

Apologies if you already covered this, but did your SOMO NGAL come back to life after some time to let it dry out?

Wondering if adding some super glue or other thin sealant-like liquid to the body and other little nooks and crannies might help mitigate water intrusion.

I may try 100% Clear Silicone. That way, its easily removed, if needed.

Yes.

That's good to hear. Makes me think sealing the unit would help mitigate what was likely a short caused by water intrusion.

If you look at the Insight site the Mk4 one he (assuming gender identity) talks about hiring more people to help with assembly and that he will do the critical stuff and QC.  Maybe they'll get it together.

He comes across as though he has geniune intentions of reaching a point where he can deliver products on a reasonable time line, but that kind of thing takes awhile to work out for any company with a product in high demand.  Even in China it could take a full year before folks saw any difference in availability and by that time we might be very close to the release of the Holosun IRIS and ZBolt ACAL.  The Holosun IRIS is allegedly going to be on par with the Mk4 and of course Holosun is a more established company with a stronge domestic U.S. presence.  

I put about 400-500 rounds on my Somo Ngal earlier this month in a 3 day window. Only zeroed once. By the end of the weekend I was about 8" off on windage. I am hoping everything is just settling and simply needs to be tightened and rezeroed.

It was very bright and clean.

Well I mean this question is sort of loaded.  By real thing do you mean domestic, over-priced, forgetabout CS, and shut up and take what we give you?  

In actual performance, very close to the big boys.  Some issues still with soft mounts, QC, and decent water-proofing.  

What do I train with?  Either SG PEQ-15's, NGAL's, or IS NGAL.  

What would I buy right now?  I'd wait and see what Holosun comes out with.  Then I'd HOPE the IS NGAL becomes more available.  Then I'd HOPE SG: un-fucks their mount, adds real diffuser caps, and waterproofing.  

I ain't paying thousands of bucks for the "real" one, so I'll put up with the "Mil-sim" ones.  Edit "hold up to" with "replace" and I'd say yeah, for sure.

There's a lot I wish I could say here but, look at the reaction here at arfcom.  These chinese clones have become so popular that they have to "isolate" the discussion of them into this separate forum.  That should tell you all you need to know.

This owner has put several thousand rounds through his SCAR 17 with the NGAL on it. That seems quite impressive all things considering the SCAR17 has killed bigger name optics and IR devices.

Boom.

A lot of guys are having good experiences with them and not just randoms, but guys that train A LOT.

Tim of Defense Mechanisms (the tactical nylon company) takes a lot of classes and trains on the reg, he's been playing around with the Somogear NGAL.  He hasn't made his overall opinion known yet, but he's testing it and using it.

The Invisible Sight EG seems like a nice one, but I've been reading about QC issues as they try to crank them out in number.  

It's soooo frustrating, because both the Somogear and IS EG are sooo close to everything we'd want.

Not really.

These clones are a cash grab aimed at a starved market created by a corrupt government.

The NGAL as a unit isn't exactly awesome from a UI perspective.
The PEQ15 is in the same boat.
So is the Raid XE.
The MAWL comes pretty close to being awesome as it's UI is fantastic but it's hamstrung by its form factor and its weight.

Do these units work and mostly accomplish what we want them to do?  Ie, illuminate shit in the dark as well as point at it?  Yeah, they do.

Id rather see someone come out with a totally new design like the Phantom Hill CTF.  At least that guy tried to create a better mouse trap.  I'd also love to see another American company attempt to create an MFAL for us.  We have the technology and with VCSEL diodes available, "low power" units can be created that are good enough.

I'm probably in the minority as I don't give a shit if some operator has smoked a bunch of terries with the unit and therefor proven its effectiveness.  I just want gear that performs well enough, has a good UI and doesn't cost absurd MFAL prices.

As it stands, these Chinese units are a stop gap for two kinds of people.

1.  Muh Full Powah poseurs.
2.  People that understand the limitations of civilian illuminators and want something that can actually work past 75 yards.

Hopefully there is enough market demand for companies to step up and invest capital in the design process.  We shall see.

IS is working on their own original design:

https://www.foundindustries.com/product-page/invisiblesight-tinal

Not sure about the details, but one thing I notice is the illuminator power spec is 50% greater than the MK4, which itself is 100% greater than the EG. Based on that one Youtube comparison the EG is already a huge step up in illuminator power from the Somogear NGAL.

I have a SG NGAL clone. Only have a few hundred rounds through my TP9 with it on. So far it has held up great. Other guys have been running it on calibers more strenuous than 9mm. But as of now, I have no complaints. It has worked perfectly for my needs.

Yeah, and all this begs the question: what is "holding up to the real thing?"  For me and what I'm doing out there, they work fuckin' great.  Is the fact that they're not up to the "milspec" affecting me in any way, shape, or form?  Fuck no.  I having lots of fun.  I think a lot of these folks are talking out both sides of their mouths.  On the one hand, they are implying that all us rubes need to have the same rugged hardware as the "big boyz" use, or you're just a posuer.  Then they'll turn around and chastise anyone for taking yourself seriously, because you ain't active duty military or LE.  Or worse, for being a "prepper" or God forbid a "survivalist".  

I think you have to take a look at all the noise and see who is saying what about these products, and what their ulterior motives may be.  At this point in time, I think it's ridiculous to try and appeal to my patriotism, or sense of what's right, or heaven forbid, what's "legal" concerning what products I choose to use. I think it's perfectly obvious at this point that the big boys don't play by the rules that they are saying we should abide by.

So if we take all that bullshit out of the equation, are Chinese airsoft/milsim products usable for our purposes?  Or Russian, European, or wherever.  And for our purposes let's define that a little more.  Just like most things in life, there are tiers to these products.  So it's very disingenuous when someone makes a blanket statement mother-fucking these items.  There are huge differences between Invisible Sights, Somo Gear, and say WADSN or Evolution Gear.  

In addition, if we are talking about training, whether for sport or self defense, do they hold up under "normal" use.  So if the world doesn't end tomorrow, can I use them for whatever I'm up to?   It cracks me up that a lot of the same people who used to laugh at us preparing for a collapse are the same ones telling us you have the best kit.  So which is it?  Do we need milspec equipment, or not?

I think that's the main issue here.  Not whether they "hold up to the real thing" but rather is that necessary?  Even if you are preparing for the "Boog", there's no reason you can't do 90% of your training with this stuff, and save the good stuff for "that day".  And if you think this is all bullshit, then why do you need milspec anyways?

Agreed. I don't plan to use NGAL clones in any serious situation. If SHTF, the proliferation of NVGs would make IR lasers a liability if not mitigated by light displicine. Let's not kid ourselves, deep down the reason most of us collect these things is because we like to LARP and that's perfectly fine. Clones serve their purpose well for that.

Also if these things are such trash as some people claim they are, why do certain supposedly free market loving American companies clamor to reduce competition (the fact that Chinese NV products have to be segregated in it's own separate forum when other types of products like Holosun red dots aren't)? If I sell a delicious high quality burger for a high price and there's a competitor that sells shit tasting burger clones for a fraction of the cost, why would I be concerned? Everyone loves capitalism until it inconveniences them.

Reminds me of rich liberals that virtue signal about climate change one day and they jump on a private jet the next.

Only reason to feel threatened of SG and IS offerings is if one realizes they offer 90% of the performance at 10% of the price. You aren’t afraid nor concerned about “trash” unless it really isn’t trash. My $0.02.

Well, that's a very good point, concerning those who are "LARPing", at least on the surface, and what they may actually be doing.  I had previously created two categories of those who are seriously prepping, and those who are just playing.  But perhaps there is a third category.  I would hazard to guess there are many who are "LARPing" as a cover to escape serious scrutiny.  And for sure that's a smart move, but it muddies the water in these discussions.  

So two things here.  Are you using Chinese gear for training (and perhaps maskirovka) purposes, and keeping the milspec stuff back for a rainy day.  And, as previously stated, are active IR pointers and illum much less usable today with the current proliferation of NV and thermal; therefore their priority is down-graded a bit.

Another point on the "real thing".  Just because you have the best equipment, does that mean you automatically defeat your enemy?  Not to go all GD on ya, but certain folks have been pushing this narrative that you have to use the best US-made products or you will die.  I think recent history has proven the fallacy of this statement.

Not to put TOO fine of a point on it, but if you are talking real world use, I'd rather have 5-6 rifles with usable support equipment, cached around an area, as opposed to one rifle with all the top end stuff.  And that's the problem with arfcom, cuz ten guys will say, oh I'm not SERIOUS about this stuff, just playing around.  But I want top end stuff.  So it's like trying to pin jello to a wall.

Absolutely. Some people are stuck in the past and are in the mindset that you always have to get equipment from the high end companies and anything else will explode if you look at it the wrong way. Price generally correlates with quality but correlation does not imply causation and you reach the point of diminishing returns surprisingly quick. You can have an expensive POS and a great cheap item. Back in the day, all Chinese optics/lasers were actually complete trash and it made people have a lasting memory of how bad they were in the past and they project it on current Chinese products.

People also tout the "But this expensive brand is combat proven and this newer cheaper brand isn't". The downside of that is that if you keep using this argument, you end up just using the same outdated equipment and let your adversaries surpass you in technology. Even though Holosuns are literally being used in Ukraine everyday and holding up, some still plug their ears and continue thinking that they're only fit for range toys.

Also agree on the high end gear won't save you part. All the gear in the world won't save you from a prepared enemy ambushing you. The gear also doesn't matter if you don't use it properly. We send Abrams overseas and despite it being one of the best tanks in the world, inexperienced crews run into mines or drive out into an open field just begging for a drone strike or RPG.

There is a baseline for optics/lasers. Hold zero under recoil. Don't randomly die. Be able to withstand random knocks from doorways or rocks and drops from shoulder height. Have glass/accuracy good enough to see/hit targets at 100-200 yards. Many budget optics that aren't Amazon specials meet that baseline. People tout the durability of expensive optics like they plan to use it as a makeshift hammer to board up windows or they're regularly throw their rifle out a three story window.

To further go on the proliferation of night vision, night vision doesn't just include NVGs. Many houses nowadays have security cameras with IR capability. I walked around my neighborhood when I first got my PVS-14 and there were multiple houses that had glowing lights through my PVS-14 but when I looked at them with my non NV eye, the house was pitch black, indicating the glowing light was from a IR camera. You can also get cheap NV handheld cameras for under $100. Their picture quality is piss poor but they will still detect IR lasers and track them back to the shooter. Don't go running around with NODs thinking you're an invisible ninja in the dark.

Civilian training and MILSIM is pretty rough on gear.  It's not as rough on gear as say fighting through the ruins of Bakhmut would be for a month, but anyone who has been to a carbine class or done anything like a 40 hour MILSIM West event knows that people break stuff and trash stuff all the time at those things.   So, does it have to be MILSPEC enough to stand up to a 30 meter depth combat dive and three story drop onto concrete? Nope, but it would be nice if it could be in spec to fit a MIL-STD-1913 rail without any slop and not die in a light rain.  

In for a penny, in for a pound.  Sure the Chinese NGAL clones might be a fraction of their American counterparts, but if I'm paying more than a PS5 for something it better at least function well and hold together for a few years.  Even if it's just going on a fun range gun it would be pretty disappointing if the damn thing didn't make it more than a few months before giving up the ghost.  

Some of you guys are balling way harder than I am though and so $400 is something you can just burn up. I've got some Dutch in me though and we squeeze quarters so hard the eagle screams. I hate spending money and I hate it even more when I don't get what I want for that money regardless of how much money it is.  

So yeah you guys are saying much the same thing.  It's a question of HOW MUCH is GOOD ENOUGH, not necessarily whether it matches someone else's perceived level of quality/mil-spec-ness.   These days you can't absolutely depend on price point, country of origin, or even previous reputation.  These are all moving targets.  

I think it's safe to say that Holosun is actually very usable.  IS is probably also very close, although their availability is still sketchy.  SG is getting closer all the time but is still a question mark.  

I look at the intersect of how does the item hold up under use, vs how important is it's current tactical value.  For me that pushes SG into the realm of GOOD ENOUGH, although for others maybe not so much.  

Some possible REAL stds:
-Must have decent IR and illum, at least out to 100m, or max PID for a 1x NV device.
-Must be zero-able and hold zero under 5.56 recoil.
-Must be reasonably durable and water-proof.
-Price point gets a vote; around 500 would be nice.
-Availability is also a factor; 6-8 weeks max would be nice.
-Form factor; just to throw that one out there.  

Fair points Diz.

I still take those factors into considerations (country of origin, price point, past reputation, etc.), but they get less weight than they used to when it comes to trying to figure out whether something is worth my money.

For me, I'm looking for a consesus to build at least to the point where I'm willing to lay down my hard earned cash and T&E it myself.  

I think the two main things for me at this point is that (A) it doesn't just break right away my first time out, and (B)  I can get it in a reasonable period of time (within 90 days).  

I'm really hoping that Tim from Defense Mechanisms will give us his opinion on his SG.  I know that he does A LOT of training courses and so his experience is going to be really relevant for civilian users.  I really like the videos on YT put out by 4MR Ranch, he gives a lot of solid data points.   I'd like to see the Cadre guys from MILSIM West (mostly former Rangers) who have run the SG at events give some long term reviews on them, because some of those guys are attending as many as one to two MILSIM West events a month, which is like a mini FTX and so their information would be pretty relevant for the civilian.

I don't think we're going to see the Holosun or the ZBolt MFAL's this year or I'll be very suprised if we do.  So, the NGAL clones are looking like a good option right now.  

That's a pretty good wrap there.  It's a hard decision as to where to set your buy button on this stuff.  And some guys don't mind being beta testers, but others do, and wait for the dust to settle.  For me half the fun is getting out there and testing this stuff out; good excuse to get out there as any.  But I am retired now, and can afford to do it.  Earlier on, I would have waited for solid feedback to come in.  

Yeah I am right there with you on the country of origin things as well.  I was a military brat and grew up on bases literally around the world.  When I was old enough, I joined up myself and was proud to serve.  As a cold war Marine, I mother-fucked anything from a combloc country, just as a matter of course.  And took pride in everything American made.  But times have changed.  I now source things wherever I can, put it in a can, and then sit on the can.

I don’t have a somogear NGAL but I got the LA5 UHP one and I’m issued NGAL’s at work and honestly after having LA5’s and moving to NGAL’s I’m not crazy about the NGAL. It’s smaller and lighter but they can shift when you press down on the unit and they basically have brail on them and the flood adjustment kind of sucks. I’ve seen a couple of them lose zero and I think all lasers kind of are prone to shifting zero to some point. I haven’t played with my some gear yet but I think people are blowing the proliferation of NV/thermal out of the water. Like other than a few towns that have heavy populations of SOF guys near a base how many sets of nods/thermals are you going to come across in an average neighborhood? Thermal is good for stationary posts, you can’t see through glass windows, and you can defeat it with a few different methods. NV limits how far you can actually see without an illuminator, like people talk about passive aiming and are you going to be able to see a target at 150-175 without an illuminator? If you’re in a structure, it’s faster to use the laser, you’re in the hall or room, the jig is up and not to mention hitting that dude with a laser in the eyes or in their nods I’m doing that all night. The Chinese stuff is going to be more prevalent since I’m certain the Taliban sold ab inch of stuff to
The Chinese. I’m interested to see if a company that makes the designatIR keeps going. It looks like it puts out a good laser but it still has a $2k price tag.