User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
IA, USA
|
Posted: 4/23/2023 12:22:09 PM EDT
I did the form 1 for brace specific pistols and got my approval back in 25 days. Just curious if everyone's says "Approved with conditions - see conditions on the last page of pdf?"
My thought is if this gets overturned, is my sbr invalid? Since they didn't ask for the $200 they could say "nope its a pistol and you have to put your brace back on." Then I'd have to do the regular form 1 route and pay $200. |
|
|
FL, USA
|
Posted: 4/23/2023 12:36:45 PM EDT
[#1]
Originally Posted By outlaw45: I did the form 1 for brace specific pistols and got my approval back in 25 days. Just curious if everyone's says "Approved with conditions - see conditions on the last page of pdf?" My thought is if this gets overturned, is my sbr invalid? Since they didn't ask for the $200 they could say "nope its a pistol and you have to put your brace back on." Then I'd have to do the regular form 1 route and pay $200. All of the free ones say that. If it gets overturned, what you suspect is likely what will happen, but we’ll have to wait and see. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/23/2023 12:54:54 PM EDT
[#2]
What were the conditions on the last page of the pdf?
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/23/2023 1:45:20 PM EDT
[#3]
Conditional pending final acceptance of The Rule.
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/23/2023 2:06:55 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By KILLERB6: Conditional pending final acceptance of The Rule. Ah. Thanks. |
|
|
|
USA
|
Posted: 4/23/2023 2:58:08 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By KILLERB6: Conditional pending final acceptance of The Rule. Actually, that is incorrect… nothing is pending on final acceptance of the rule. Rule was published, so it is pretty much final in the ATF’s eyes. The approval of your SBR has conditions, which are pursuant TO the cited rule. Reason it is cited is A) you didn’t pay $200 tax/not receiving a stamp (you get an approved Form 1), B) you didn’t have to engrave the firearm and C) it was done due to said rule which gives you the “protection” under the amnesty. What happens if the rule is overturned? Well, it is going to be up to how it is overturned. The ATF approved quite a lot of SBRs, citing the rule. If it’s overturned, can the ATF say “you must go back to the brace?” Once mine have been approved… I’ve swapped in stocks per their rule. Actually got rid of the braces (keeping one for a pistol lower build, if it is overturned), since they are accessories. So if I’m asked to remove the stock… doesn’t that mean I’ll have an unregistered SBR as soon as the rule is overturned? The basic requirement for NFA registration has been done, so I really doubt they are going to yank the approvals. An owner could request the firearm be removed from the registry… but I would think that would come down to that person requesting it, in those circumstances. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/23/2023 3:24:22 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Screwball: An owner could request the firearm be removed from the registry but I would think that would come down to that person requesting it, in those circumstances. They'll add a little note stating you don't want to have the SBR option anymore, if you ask them to. But why would you? |
|
|
|
FL, USA
|
Posted: 4/23/2023 10:21:30 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Screwball: Actually, that is incorrect… nothing is pending on final acceptance of the rule. Rule was published, so it is pretty much final in the ATF’s eyes. The approval of your SBR has conditions, which are pursuant TO the cited rule. Reason it is cited is A) you didn’t pay $200 tax/not receiving a stamp (you get an approved Form 1), B) you didn’t have to engrave the firearm and C) it was done due to said rule which gives you the “protection” under the amnesty. What happens if the rule is overturned? Well, it is going to be up to how it is overturned. The ATF approved quite a lot of SBRs, citing the rule. If it’s overturned, can the ATF say “you must go back to the brace?” Once mine have been approved… I’ve swapped in stocks per their rule. Actually got rid of the braces (keeping one for a pistol lower build, if it is overturned), since they are accessories. So if I’m asked to remove the stock… doesn’t that mean I’ll have an unregistered SBR as soon as the rule is overturned? The basic requirement for NFA registration has been done, so I really doubt they are going to yank the approvals. An owner could request the firearm be removed from the registry… but I would think that would come down to that person requesting it, in those circumstances. They certainly could tell you to remove the stock and revert it back to a pistol. As far as the “unregistered” SBR argument goes, the rule being overturned would mean it was never a SBR in the first place, and if you slapped a stock on it after getting it approved (which would no longer be considered a valid approval ), they would likely give you a time period to remove the stock and use discretionary enforcement to not prosecute anyone who made an unregistered SBR up to the end of that time period. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/24/2023 4:11:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Princeton]
[#8]
What are the chances if the rule is eliminated they simply ask for the $200 to keep it on the registry since it’s already approved?
I have a couple guns I’m swapping out the brace for a stock when approval comes back and a couple I’m leaving the brace on but keeping all braces and related parts just in case. |
|
|
|
MS, USA
|
Posted: 4/24/2023 5:15:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Glocked]
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Princeton: What are the chances if the rule is eliminated they simply ask for the $200 to keep it on the registry since it’s already approved? I have a couple guns I’m swapping out the brace for a stock when approval comes back and a couple I’m leaving the brace on but keeping all braces and related parts just in case. He campaigned with the goal of adding assault rifles and standard capacity mags to the NFA. This pistol brace rule does just that, adding scary assault weapons to the NFA. I’ve no doubt he’ll continue this shit, based on design, features, parts…. That only works if the registry remains open. Them doing stupid shit after the fact like canceling approvals or demanding the taxes be paid won’t work out well for them in the long run. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/24/2023 6:38:40 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Princeton: What are the chances if the rule is eliminated they simply ask for the $200 to keep it on the registry since it’s already approved? I have a couple guns I’m swapping out the brace for a stock when approval comes back and a couple I’m leaving the brace on but keeping all braces and related parts just in case. I'm guessing you'd have to comply with the original SBR rules like engraving, and resubmit. Pretty sure they'd demand you pay the $200 tax as well. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/24/2023 6:47:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: JaredC1]
[#11]
Oops. This is not GD. Shame.
|
|
|
|
NC, USA
|
Posted: 4/24/2023 8:22:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: dmk0210]
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Screwball: Actually, that is incorrect nothing is pending on final acceptance of the rule. Rule was published, so it is pretty much final in the ATF's eyes. The approval of your SBR has conditions, which are pursuant TO the cited rule. Reason it is cited is A) you didn't pay $200 tax/not receiving a stamp (you get an approved Form 1), B) you didn't have to engrave the firearm and C) it was done due to said rule which gives you the "protection" under the amnesty. This is exactly what it means. My approved Form1 says "Approved with conditions..." and the only condition is "Pursuant to ATF Final Rule 2021R-08F". Pursuant means in accordance with (a law or a legal document or resolution). So the conditions of approval are effectively "in accordance with ATF Final Rule 2021R-08F". Normally to register an SBR you are required to pay $200 and get your receiver engraved. You are not doing that and therefore have no tax paid stamp or engravings on your firearm "in accordance with ATF Final Rule 2021R-08F". Upon approval of the F1, your firearm is registered under the NFA. Even if the ATF pistol brace thing is overturned, it still registered as an NFA SBR. I downloaded and keep a copy of ATF Final Rule 2021R-08F with my NFA paperwork to back that up however. |
|
|
MT, USA
|
Posted: 4/24/2023 8:33:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: osprey21]
[#13]
This is not GD
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/24/2023 9:29:16 AM EDT
[#14]
I submitted 6 pistols that have braces on them. 4 or 5 of them I was eventually going to SBR the traditional route before this brace rule came about.
Paying the $200 and engraving was going to happen eventually on those guns so I’m not too twisted up if I had to do both those at some point. What I don’t want is to have to do the paperwork and start the waiting process all over again. BTW, my real belief is that SBR shouldn’t be part of the NFA at all. The idea that putting a stock on a gun with a short barrel makes it somehow deadlier is just like the old “Saturday night special” argument when they tried to ban small handguns. |
|
|
|
IA, USA
|
Posted: 4/24/2023 10:58:16 AM EDT
[#15]
And also, I thought they said "once a rifle, always a rifle." Except when the crown doesn't like it.
|
|
|
MI, USA
|
Posted: 4/24/2023 10:58:01 PM EDT
[#16]
I imagine if the rule that the conditional approval is reliant on is overturned, they would give you the option to either pay the tax and engrave the weapon like standard a form1 sbr or else remove the stock. But it's anyone's guess at this point.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/27/2023 3:10:35 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By outlaw45: And also, I thought they said "once a rifle, always a rifle." Except when the crown doesn't like it. The rule has been “FIRST a rifle, always a rifle”. Since at least Thompson-Center case, pistols and receivers first built as pistols have been able to go pistol, rifle, back to pistol with barrel changes if needed. Of course, the NFA-rule Ouija board could declare differently at any time with different weight hands pushing it. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/27/2023 4:55:11 PM EDT
[#18]
I sent mine in back in the middle of JANUARY, before the rush. Not a peep after the acceptance email. I can't imagine what those fucks are doing with it. Others are getting theirs approved in less than a month..
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/27/2023 5:01:49 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jodan1776: I sent mine in back in the middle of JANUARY, before the rush. Not a peep after the acceptance email. I can't imagine what those fucks are doing with it. Others are getting theirs approved in less than a month.. I had one approved in 6 days, with a weekend in the middle. I’ve still got others hanging out there that were submitted the exact same time. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/27/2023 5:27:31 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WUPHF: I had one approved in 6 days, with a weekend in the middle. I’ve still got others hanging out there that were submitted the exact same time. Dang. 6 days |
|
|
|
OH, USA
|
Posted: 4/27/2023 7:37:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: esdunbar]
[#21]
The answer will depend on the ruling. I haven’t practiced law in 15 years, but I have the piece of paper hanging on my wall.
I think there would certainly be an argument that if the ATF never had the authority to issue the rule, then the rule goes away, arguably even the parts that allow for the “free stamp.” If that’s the case, yes, the approval is pursuant to an errant and no longer existing rule, therefore there is no approval anymore. However, it could be found that the rule is vague (specifically the definition of a stock), and since it’s a criminal rule, it gets interpreted in favor of the civilian. In that case, I guess the rule would still stand, but they’d have a hard time convicting anyone because of the vagueness. I made those up, but they are possible outcomes. Obviously the court would have a lot more nuance than that, but you get the idea. That’s a lot of words to say, we don’t and cannot know at this point. There are reasons it could stand even if struck down and reasons it would get nuked it struck down. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/27/2023 8:15:40 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Princeton: What are the chances if the rule is eliminated they simply ask for the $200 to keep it on the registry since it’s already approved? I have a couple guns I’m swapping out the brace for a stock when approval comes back and a couple I’m leaving the brace on but keeping all braces and related parts just in case. I am planning on doing what many of you are doing. When my eForm 1 is approved I’m going to install a folding stock on my Rattler. Any recommendations on options for folding stocks? |
|
|
|
KY, USA
|
Posted: 8/4/2023 11:28:53 PM EDT
[#23]
Just a heads up for all. Submitted all of mine on the last day. I just got two approvals back. I have a couple I am still waiting on. They were done by 2 different ATF Officials. They do have the Approved with Conditions like the original poster.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/12/2023 9:32:57 AM EDT
[#24]
Just got the only Form 1 I submitted approved. It took about five months. I don't really care what the future holds for that particular rifle as far as the rule goes. I'll work to keep that one legal and compliant since it is a duty weapon. If I ever have to use it in the line of duty it'll probably get trashed during the subsequent investigation so there's really no sentimental attachment to it. It's disposable and easily replaced and is more of an insurance policy than a cherished keepsake.
What this process did for me was take away the mystery of doing NFA paperwork. I'm now looking at doing a SBS and another SBR. A can for the rifle would also be great. Once you get in and out of a cruiser with a SBR on the range, you'll never go back. I really do appreciate all the tips and pointers in this discussion group. I probably couldn't or wouldn't have done it without you guys. |
|
|
|
AZ, USA
|
Posted: 8/12/2023 12:15:35 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jeepnstein: Just got the only Form 1 I submitted approved. It took about five months. I don't really care what the future holds for that particular rifle as far as the rule goes. I'll work to keep that one legal and compliant since it is a duty weapon. If I ever have to use it in the line of duty it'll probably get trashed during the subsequent investigation so there's really no sentimental attachment to it. It's disposable and easily replaced and is more of an insurance policy than a cherished keepsake. What this process did for me was take away the mystery of doing NFA paperwork. I'm now looking at doing a SBS and another SBR. A can for the rifle would also be great. Once you get in and out of a cruiser with a SBR on the range, you'll never go back. I really do appreciate all the tips and pointers in this discussion group. I probably couldn't or wouldn't have done it without you guys. Assuming your SBR is an AR lower it opens up a bunch of calibers suitable for shorter barrels, suppressors, mobility, all with simple swap-ins. Of course, braced pistols created similar acceptance and growth. Even with sales of braced pistols choked off, the market still provides a smorgasbord of functional choices. Prices are still decent among more common (or proven) options. |
|
|
WA, USA
|
Posted: 8/17/2023 4:25:30 PM EDT
[#26]
On May 28, I submitted 3 braced pistols for SBR and 1 paid rifle to SBR. The paid rifle one came back approved on July 7.
The first of my Brace Rule pistols was approved today (MKE Z-5SR "MP5") and the other two are still pending (both Galil ACE pistols). I also wonder about "no Rule, no Approval". So will keep my braces handy. Rob |
|
|
SD, USA
|
Posted: 9/15/2023 4:38:14 PM EDT
[#27]
I've read thru this topic a number of times and I'm still confused.
I sent in and received approval on my Form 1. I did it to cover the 80% AR15 lower/AR9 I built with a 8.5" barrel. It has the pistol brace on it and was previously engraved. Question is, is it mandatory for the brace to be swapped out with a normal stock or can I leave the brace on and run it from the shoulder? Given it's an approved SBR, does the brace even matter at this point? Any feedback is greatly appreciated. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/15/2023 4:57:21 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By andywoj: Question is, is it mandatory for the brace to be swapped out with a normal stock or can I leave the brace on and run it from the shoulder? Given it's an approved SBR, does the brace even matter at this point? Any feedback is greatly appreciated. The brace is a stock. A stock is a stock. Your call. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/15/2023 5:04:36 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By andywoj: I've read thru this topic a number of times and I'm still confused. I sent in and received approval on my Form 1. I did it to cover the 80% AR15 lower/AR9 I built with a 8.5" barrel. It has the pistol brace on it and was previously engraved. Question is, is it mandatory for the brace to be swapped out with a normal stock or can I leave the brace on and run it from the shoulder? Given it's an approved SBR, does the brace even matter at this point? Any feedback is greatly appreciated. It doesn’t matter. The ATF now view braces as being the same thing as a buttstock. Keep the brace on there or swap it out with a different stock, it doesn’t matter. |
|
|
|
TN, USA
|
Posted: 1/10/2024 12:28:12 AM EDT
[#30]
I have a two questions.
A. I see a lot of people removing the brace and replacing it with a stock after the SBR is approved. Is there any language preventing this? B. Having the $50 Brace engraved is not required. Is there any down side to engraving it anyway? |
|
|
OH, USA
|
Posted: 1/10/2024 2:53:00 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By voldaddy: I have a two questions. A. I see a lot of people removing the brace and replacing it with a stock after the SBR is approved. Is there any language preventing this? B. Having the $50 Brace engraved is not required. Is there any down side to engraving it anyway? A. no a SBR is a SBR, you can change stocks at will (remember the entire thing boils down to brace = stock) B. the brace (stock) was never an option for the engraving. The downsides to engraving anything on a brace is lowering the resale value and being a waste of money. There also is no upside, unless it makes you happy. |
|
|
TN, USA
|
Posted: 1/12/2024 12:32:02 AM EDT
[#32]
I was thinking about engraving the receiver of the gun and not the brace, Because the gun is the SBR not the brace and I want to replace the brace with a collapsible stock.
|
|
|
USA
|
Posted: 1/12/2024 7:58:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Screwball]
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By voldaddy: I was thinking about engraving the receiver of the gun and not the brace, Because the gun is the SBR not the brace and I want to replace the brace with a collapsible stock. So, you got an SBR under this amnesty? If so, remove brace, install stock... and done. No engraving. I did that on a total of 6 SBRs that I had done under amnesty. It was clearly put out there by ATF when the website first rolled out. Only thing that was questionable was when you could put a stock on... it took a little bit before they said "after the approval." The wording originally made people think once you submitted the amnesty eForm1, you could put a stock on. They eventually clarified that the pending eForm allowed for the brace to be on the pistol, not a stock until approved. The SBS and SBR that I paid $200 for the stamps both have/will have my name and city/state engraved on them. I say "will have" because I built a 9mm AR pistol after the injunction with a brace... which I'm leaving in that configuration until I go down to my parents in NC. I have a class with my PTR (MP5) and taking the AR9 as a spare gun... but also going to stop into THSF for them to engrave it (will build it into a SBR on return home). All future SBRs will have the same, unless that requirement or parts of the NFA are dropped. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/13/2024 12:54:14 AM EDT
[#34]
If you have an approved form 1, that’s it, you’re done. If you have the conditions line in remarks you don’t pay tax and don’t engrave it because it’s always been a sbr.
Ftatf made such a cluster duck with this. And for fucks sake don’t send letters to atf |
|
|
|
CO, USA
|
Posted: 1/13/2024 1:36:55 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By voldaddy: I was thinking about engraving the receiver of the gun and not the brace, Because the gun is the SBR not the brace and I want to replace the brace with a collapsible stock. You can engrave anything you want. Wood burn butterflys on your coffee table if you want, but what everyone is telling you is with the brace ban SBR approvals you aren't required to engrave anything. You'd just be wasting money. It'd accomplish nothing. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/16/2024 11:41:22 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 3-gun: And for fucks sake don’t send letters to atf |
|
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
