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Posted: 4/5/2024 3:21:08 PM EDT
Maybe this has been asked before, maybe not.

I know that the upper is the serialized part and will need to be engraved, but will the unserialized lower need to be engraved as well?
Link Posted: 4/5/2024 3:27:25 PM EDT
[#1]
No, upper only.
Link Posted: 4/5/2024 5:10:25 PM EDT
[#2]
Thanx. But just to be 100% on this, I begrudgingly emailed the AFT with this question. I really hate asking them anything but I've gotten conflicting answers from FFLs.
Link Posted: 4/5/2024 5:42:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: DogtownTom] [#3]
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Originally Posted By Rojoko:
Thanx. But just to be 100% on this, I begrudgingly emailed the AFT with this question. I really hate asking them anything but I've gotten conflicting answers from FFLs.
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Originally Posted By Rojoko:
Thanx. But just to be 100% on this, I begrudgingly emailed the AFT with this question. I really hate asking them anything but I've gotten conflicting answers from FFLs.

What makes you think ATF will give you a better answer?
Read for yourself:
Definition of “Frame or Receiver” and Identification of Firearms
and
§ 479.102 Identification of firearms.

§ 479.102 Identification of firearms.

(a) Identification required.  Except as otherwise provided in this section, you, as a manufacturer, importer, or maker of a firearm, must legibly identify the firearm as follows:

(1) Serial number, name, place of business.  By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or otherwise placed on the frame or receiver thereof, an individual serial number, in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed. The serial number must not duplicate any serial number placed by you on any other firearm. The frame or receiver must also be marked with either: Your name (or recognized abbreviation), and city and State (or recognized abbreviation) where you as a manufacturer or importer maintain your place of business, or in the case of a maker, where you made the firearm; or if a manufacturer or importer, your name (or recognized abbreviation) and the serial number that begins with your abbreviated Federal firearms license number, which is the first three and last five digits, as a prefix to a unique identification number, followed by a hyphen, e.g., “12345678-[unique identification number]”; and

(2) Model, caliber or gauge, foreign manufacturer, country of manufacture.  By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed on the frame or receiver, or barrel or pistol slide (if applicable) thereof certain additional information. This information must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed. The additional information shall include:

(i) The model, if such designation has been made;

(ii) The caliber or gauge;

(iii) When applicable, the name of the foreign manufacturer or maker; and

(iv) In the case of an imported firearm, the name of the country in which it was manufactured. For additional requirements relating to imported firearms, see Customs regulations at 19 CFR part 134.

(3) Multi-piece frame or receiver.  In the case of a multi-piece frame or receiver, the modular subpart that is the outermost housing or structure designed to house, hold, or contain either the primary energized component of a handgun, breech blocking or sealing component of a projectile weapon other than a handgun, or internal sound reduction component of a firearm muffler or firearm silencer, as the case may be, shall be the subpart of a multi-piece frame or receiver identified in accordance with this section. If more than one subpart is similarly designed to house, hold, or contain such primary component (e.g., left and right halves), each of those subparts must be identified with the same serial number and associated licensee information not duplicated on any other frame or receiver. The identified subpart(s) of a complete (assembled or unassembled) multi-piece frame or receiver shall not be removed and replaced (see § 478.34 of this subchapter, 18 U.S.C. 922(k), and 26 U.S.C. 5861(g) and (h)), unless—

(i) The subpart replacement is not a firearm under 26 U.S.C. 5845;

(ii) The subpart replacement is identified by the qualified manufacturer of the original subpart with the same serial number and associated licensee information in the manner prescribed by this section; and

(iii) The original subpart is destroyed under the manufacturer's control or direct supervision prior to such placement.

(4) Frame or receiver, machine gun conversion part, or silencer part disposed of separately.  Each part defined as a frame or receiver or modular subpart thereof described in paragraph (a)(3) of this section, machinegun, or firearm muffler or firearm silencer that is not a component part of a complete weapon or complete muffler or silencer device at the time it is sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed of by you must be identified as required by this section with an individual serial number not duplicated on any other firearm and all additional identifying information, except that the model designation and caliber or gauge may be omitted if that information is unknown at the time the part is identified.

(5) Size and depth of markings. The engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of the serial number and additional information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch, and the serial number and any associated license number in a print size no smaller than 1⁄16 inch. The size of the serial and license number is measured as the distance between the latitudinal ends of the character impression bottoms (bases). The depth of all markings required by this section is measured from the flat surface of the metal and not the peaks or ridges.

(6) Period of time to identify firearms.  You, as a manufacturer, shall identify a complete weapon or complete muffler or silencer device no later than close of the next business day following the date the entire manufacturing process has ended for the weapon or device, or prior to disposition, whichever is sooner. You must identify each part or modular subpart defined as a machine gun (frame or receiver, or conversion part) or muffler or silencer that is not a component part of a complete weapon or complete muffler or silencer device at the time it is sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed of no later than close of the next business day following the date the entire manufacturing process has ended for the part, or prior to disposition, whichever is sooner. For purposes of this paragraph, firearms awaiting materials, parts, or equipment repair to be completed are presumed, absent reliable evidence to the contrary, to be in the manufacturing process. Importers must identify imported firearms within the period prescribed in § 478.112 of this subchapter.

(7) Meaning of marking terms.  For purposes of this section, the term “identify” means placing marks of identification, the terms “legible” and “legibly” mean that the identification markings (including any unique identification number) use exclusively Roman letters (e.g., A, a, B, b, C, c) and Arabic numerals (e.g., 1, 2, 3), or solely Arabic numerals, and may include a hyphen, and the terms “conspicuous” and “conspicuously” mean that the identification markings are capable of being easily seen with the naked eye during normal handling of the firearm and are unobstructed by other markings when the complete weapon or device is assembled.

(b) Exceptions —

(1) Alternate means of identification.  The Director may authorize other means of identification to identify firearms upon receipt of a letter application or prescribed form from you showing that such other identification is reasonable and will not hinder the effective administration of this part.

(2) Destructive devices.  In the case of a destructive device, the Director may authorize other means of identification to identify that weapon upon receipt of a letter application or prescribed form from you. The application shall show that engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) such a weapon as required by this section would be dangerous or impracticable and that the alternate means of identification proposed will not hinder the effective administration of this part.

(3) Adoption of identifying markings. You may adopt existing markings and are not required to mark a serial number or other identifying markings previously placed on a firearm in accordance with this section, as follows:

(i) Newly manufactured firearms.  Manufacturers may adopt the serial number and other identifying markings previously placed on a firearm by another manufacturer provided the firearm has not been sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed of to a person other than a qualified manufacturer, importer, or dealer, and the serial number adopted is not duplicated on any other firearm.

(ii) Remanufactured or imported firearms.  Manufacturers and importers may adopt the serial number or other identifying markings previously placed on a firearm that otherwise meets the requirements of this section that has been sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed of to a person other than a licensee provided that, within the period and in the manner herein prescribed, the manufacturer or importer legibly and conspicuously places, or causes to be placed, on the frame or receiver either: Their name (or recognized abbreviation), and city and State (or recognized abbreviation) where they maintain their place of business; or their name (or recognized abbreviation) and abbreviated Federal firearms license number, which is the first three and last five digits, individually (i.e., not as a prefix to the serial number adopted) after the letters “FFL”, in the following format: “FFL12345678”. The serial number adopted must not duplicate any serial number adopted or placed on any other firearm, except that if an importer receives two or more firearms with the same foreign manufacturer's serial number, the importer may adopt the serial number by adding letters or numbers to that serial number, and may include a hyphen.

(iii) Manufacturers performing gunsmithing services.  Manufacturers may adopt the serial number or other identifying markings previously placed on a firearm by a qualified manufacturer, importer, or dealer, provided the manufacturer is performing services as a gunsmith (as defined in § 478.11 of this subchapter) on existing firearms not for sale or distribution.

(4)

(i) Firearm muffler or silencer parts transferred between qualified manufacturers for further manufacture or to complete new devices.  Manufacturers qualified under this part may transfer a part defined as a muffler or silencer to another qualified manufacturer without immediately identifying or registering such part provided that it is for further manufacture (i.e., machining, coating, etc.) or manufacturing a complete muffler or silencer device. Once the new device with such part is completed, the manufacturer who completes the device shall identify and register it in the manner and within the period specified in this part for a complete muffler or silencer device.

(ii) Firearm muffler or silencer replacement parts transferred to qualified manufacturers or dealers to repair existing devices.  Manufacturers qualified under this part may transfer a replacement part defined as a muffler or silencer other than a frame or receiver to a qualified manufacturer or dealer without identifying or registering such part provided that it is for repairing a complete muffler or silencer device that was previously identified and registered in accordance with this part and part 478.

(5) Frames or receivers designed before August 24, 2022.  Manufacturers and importers may continue to identify the same component of a firearm defined as a frame or receiver as it existed before August 24, 2022 with the same information required to be marked by paragraphs (a)(1) and (a)(2) of this section that were in effect prior to that date, and any rules necessary to ensure such identification shall remain effective for that purpose. Any frame or receiver with a new design manufactured after August 24, 2022 must be marked with the identifying information and within the period prescribed by this section. For purposes of this paragraph, the term “new design” means that the design of the existing frame or receiver has been functionally modified or altered, as distinguished from performing a cosmetic process that adds to or changes the decoration of the frame or receiver (e.g., painting or engraving), or by adding or replacing stocks, barrels, or accessories to the frame or receiver.

(c) Voluntary classification of firearms.  The Director may issue a determination (classification) to a person whether an item, including a kit, is a firearm as defined in this part upon receipt of a written request or form prescribed by the Director. Each such voluntary request or form submitted shall be executed under the penalties of perjury with a complete and accurate description of the item or kit, the name and address of the manufacturer or importer thereof, and a sample of such item or kit for examination. A firearm sample must include all accessories and attachments relevant to such classification as each classification is limited to the firearm in the configuration submitted. Each request for classification of a partially complete, disassembled, or nonfunctional item or kit must contain any associated templates, jigs, molds, equipment, or tools that are made available by the seller or distributor of the item or kit to the purchaser or recipient of the item or kit, and any instructions, guides, or marketing materials if they will be made available by the seller or distributor with the item or kit. Upon completion of the examination, the Director may return the sample to the person who made the request unless a determination is made that return of the sample would be or place the person in violation of law. Except for the classification of a specific component as the frame or receiver of a particular weapon, a determination made by the Director under this paragraph shall not be deemed by any person to be applicable to or authoritative with respect to any other sample, design, model, or configuration.

[ATF-2021R-05F, 87 FR 24747, Apr. 26, 2022; 87 FR 51250, Aug. 22, 2022]


If B&T engraved on the upper only (because thats what ATF considers the receiver), what makes you think you would need to engrave the lower as well?
Link Posted: 4/6/2024 7:56:45 AM EDT
[#4]
I enjoy reading books, but I was hoping to bypass that massive wall of bureaucratic horseshit with a nice and tidy Cliff's Notes version. So in short, the lower does not have to be engraved which is what I was hoping to be the case. It wouldn't make sense to have to serialize a non-serialized part. I know the ATF wants us to, but I'm not doing that if the law doesn't obligate me to.
Link Posted: 4/6/2024 11:45:29 AM EDT
[#5]
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Originally Posted By Rojoko:
I enjoy reading books, but I was hoping to bypass that massive wall of bureaucratic horseshit with a nice and tidy Cliff's Notes version.
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Originally Posted By Rojoko:
I enjoy reading books, but I was hoping to bypass that massive wall of bureaucratic horseshit with a nice and tidy Cliff's Notes version.

Those nice and tidy Cliff's Notes versions are great until they leave out something that could cause you to violate federal law.
Years ago my ATF IOI told me they weren't allowed to give opinions or interpretation, only Technical Branch could do that. When I had a question, he would just refer me to the appropriate citation in the CFR.  

I'll highlight in red the really important stuff, but never forget that the rest of that wall of text is what you really need to read. (being that you could be fined or imprisoned for not abiding by it)

So in short, the lower does not have to be engraved which is what I was hoping to be the case. It wouldn't make sense to have to serialize a non-serialized part. I know the ATF wants us to, but I'm not doing that if the law doesn't obligate me to.

Actually ATF only "wants" a manufacturer or maker to serialize the part determined to be the frame or receiver. It's been an issue for decades as to what part is "the firearm". On some designs its the lower receiver, others its the upper.

Serial numbers on slides, barrels, etc often causes problems on a firearm trace. Local LE calls in a Polymer 80 homemade frame with a factory Glock slide..........guess what serial# he'll use? The one on the slide or barrel because a homemade Polymer 80 frame isn't required to be serialized by the maker.

Thats the reason ATF wanted Rule 2021R-05F
Link Posted: 4/8/2024 10:13:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Fuddy_McBootlicker] [#6]
ATF just wrote back to me. They want the lower to be marked with the typical NFA info, in addition to the upper. I'm fine with the upper, that's already a given.
Link Posted: 4/10/2024 12:24:27 PM EDT
[#7]
It should only be required on the serialized part

If that's the upper then the upper gets engraved with relevant info
Link Posted: 4/10/2024 12:56:44 PM EDT
[#8]
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Originally Posted By Rojoko:
ATF just wrote back to me. They want the lower to be marked with the typical NFA info, in addition to the upper. I'm fine with the upper, that's already a given.
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You were seriously expecting a correct answer from ATF?
Link Posted: 4/10/2024 1:01:32 PM EDT
[#9]
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Originally Posted By KitBuilder:
You were seriously expecting a correct answer from ATF?
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Originally Posted By KitBuilder:
Originally Posted By Rojoko:
ATF just wrote back to me. They want the lower to be marked with the typical NFA info, in addition to the upper. I'm fine with the upper, that's already a given.
You were seriously expecting a correct answer from ATF?


To be fair the answer they gave is not wrong

They said "they want the lower to be marked"
Not some like "legally it has to like the upper"

They can "want" anything but unless legally required to, in personally wouldn't
Link Posted: 4/10/2024 5:55:51 PM EDT
[#10]
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Originally Posted By craig24680:


To be fair the answer they gave is not wrong
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Originally Posted By craig24680:


To be fair the answer they gave is not wrong

If the ATF had responded "You also need to tattoo the serial# on your nutsack" would you also say the answer they gave is not wrong?

They ARE wrong. Flat wrong. The reason why is posted above.


They said "they want the lower to be marked"
Not some like "legally it has to like the upper"

ATF regulations and Rule 2021R-05F explain why.

They can "want" anything but unless legally required to, in personally wouldn't

This.
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