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Posted: 3/8/2024 9:34:22 AM EDT
So I brainstormed an idea. If you made a “bird banger” or “sonic signal” that meets the definition of a signaling device (less than 1/4oz payload, nonmetallic, etc) that could be fired from a 22mm spigot style rifle grenade launcher, would that be considered a grenade or a signaling device? If not a grenade, that could be a lot of fun to play around with. You could launch them far further and more accurately than a 37mm because it could be more effectively stabilized with fins.
Thoughts? |
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MT, USA
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Posted: 3/8/2024 9:48:30 AM EDT
[#1]
You're talking about a device being launched by a separate cartridge so it's not self-contained.
It doesn't meet any of the definitions of DD laid out in law. |
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Posted: 3/8/2024 10:13:57 AM EDT
[#2]
Didnt think so. Think the atf would give me grief since they would be fired off a mil-spec style grenade launcher? Might be safer to do, say, 23mm spigot instead of 22mm. Or maybe I am being too paranoid.
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MT, USA
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Posted: 3/8/2024 10:37:14 AM EDT
[#3]
If it's not a self-contained cartridge and doesn't otherwise meet the definition of a DD then it really doesn't matter what launches it.
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Posted: 3/8/2024 11:18:39 AM EDT
[#4]
Roger, thank you.
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Posted: 3/12/2024 9:08:32 PM EDT
[#5]
I've been slowly working on a similar idea for both muzzle launch and can cannon (different projectiles but the same firing mechanism for the report). I am trying to use .308 blanks as the report charge, since I have a bunch of them and SA ammo is specifically exempted from explosive regulations.
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Posted: 3/13/2024 10:52:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Ben]
[#6]
Originally Posted By hitchhiker: So I brainstormed an idea. If you made a “bird banger” or “sonic signal” that meets the definition of a signaling device (less than 1/4oz payload, nonmetallic, etc) that could be fired from a 22mm spigot style rifle grenade launcher, would that be considered a grenade or a signaling device? If not a grenade, that could be a lot of fun to play around with. You could launch them far further and more accurately than a 37mm because it could be more effectively stabilized with fins. Thoughts? Interesting that this came up now, as I floated almost this exact idea to several people a few days ago. Point of order....if it is fired from an unmodified AR off the flash hider, it technically should be small arms ammunition, right? A DD is based off the bore size (5.56mm here), not the projectile size. 1/4oz bursting charge and smaller is not a DD, even if it is metal and produces shrapnel, if it is a projectile. (Missile) |
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Posted: 3/13/2024 11:39:20 AM EDT
[#7]
I am interested in this topic.
 Besides, @Bravo_Six and his idea for a .308/7.62 blank for the report, what are the ideas for the report? Is it all impact-fuzing ideas? Or is anyone considering air burst, for actual "bird banger" functionality? Trying to make smoke and small sub 1/4oz poppers for my 26.5mm RV85 that I DD stamped, I've found that getting Visco fuse to ignite reliably is really difficult. And that's from a BP lift charge in a American Specialty Ammo 26.5mm aluminum reusable casing, with a 209 shotshell primer. Blank fired from a cup/muzzle launcher or Can Cannon would be even more difficult.  I tried everything I could find online, or the advice on Grog's forum, cut a shallow angle on the Visco with a razor. Use nitrocellulose nail polish/lacquer as glue to put a mix of ffffg & match heads on the exposed end. I got about 25% ignition at best.  I feel like what's needed is Visco slid into a thin metal tube capped with a primer, and a little "thumbtack" or button that slaps it from the lift charge or blank. But that seems like a ton of hassle for fun noise & smoke. Also, does anyone have info on getting the most noise out of the 1/4 ounce of signal pop filler? I was thinking about a thick-walled 3D printed capsule, or maybe even some sort of PVC plumbing or electrical fitting that's suitable, & cheap, and trying to create a burst-disk effect, with a punched out circle of aluminum beverage can... Metal/oxidizer flash mixes are an obvious answer, but everything I've ever seen in DD forums is "No go, do not discuss..." which is understandable. Using flash in paper & glue DIY pyrotechnics is safe-ish, assuming all the mixing & handling & assembly is kosher... if it goes off prematurely, it's only pushing paper & glue, and presumably it got started by a fuse, and you un-ass the vicinity. You have flash prematurely in some sort of barrel, a cup launcher, a Can Cannon, or just a plastic or metal projectile, that'll ruin your day. So I was thinking if it's something like .23 oz of ffffg flintlock pan BP, the AL burst disk idea might make for a sharper report. |
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Posted: 4/7/2024 11:11:00 AM EDT
[#8]
@Ben- So you could legally make the burst capsule out of steel? Interesting. I was thinking of casting them out of some sort of resin, with kevlar or carbon fiber strands mixed in. Also- forgot I posted this LOL
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Posted: 4/7/2024 11:12:51 AM EDT
[#9]
@AJ_Dual You can mix your own BP and add in 10-20% by weight aluminum powder to get more bang out of it. Unsure if this would work if you simply added the powder into fffg, though. Dunno if it would stay well mixed.
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Posted: 4/7/2024 11:35:36 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By hitchhiker: @Ben- So you could legally make the burst capsule out of steel? Interesting. I was thinking of casting them out of some sort of resin, with kevlar or carbon fiber strands mixed in. Also- forgot I posted this LOL Correct. |
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Posted: 4/15/2024 5:05:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Gingerbreadman]
[#11]
I've been doing a little experimenting in this realm lately. There is still room for improvement, but results are promising. 3D printer go brrrrr.....
50 grain Pyrodex pellets have a 1/8" hole through the center. Safety fuse is approximately 1/8" in diameter. A 3D printed projectile with a hole that fits the pellet, with an 1/8" fuse passage and plugged on the other end with hot glue can make for a decent bang. A single pellet stays well under the 1/4 oz. limit. It makes a decent bang, a decent puff of smoke, and a bit of a flash. Like I said earlier, there's room for improvement, but it is easy to keep consistent. ETA: I've found 3D printed parts to be surprisingly porous, even at high infill settings. Definitely shield your payload from your lifting charge if you go that route |
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Posted: 4/17/2024 2:09:24 PM EDT
[#12]
@Gingerbreadman I hadnt thought of the pre-formed muzzle loading pellets.. Thats an intersting idea. Hmmm. Was thinking of pressing my own with FFFG, with 10-15% aluminum powder mixed in for more bang. But that is simple, and consistant.
Yeah, I figured I would have to go an extra mile making sure to seal off the payload from the lift charge. Would definately 3d print. This is on my list of things to try- as well as building a prototype rifle I designed and a few other projects. I need 3 more of me. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 4/17/2024 2:27:27 PM EDT
[#13]
There are 14.5mm artillery simulators that can be shot through a 20ga. rifled shotgun. I have some that I got in trade, but never loaded them up. They are supposed to go a few hundred yards and explode with a puff of smoke.
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WI, USA
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Posted: 4/17/2024 2:29:00 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ihon: There are 14.5mm artillery simulators that can be shot through a 20ga. rifled shotgun. I have some that I got in trade, but never loaded them up. They are supposed to go a few hundred yards and explode with a puff of smoke. Supply has become pretty dry, but they work great in 40mm. They have both time delay and impact detonating. |
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SC, USA
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Posted: 4/17/2024 10:37:37 PM EDT
[#15]
Don't mean to hijack the thread, but would everything discussed here also apply to a hand deployed 'bird banger' type device similar to the taggin/IWA ones assuming the total payload stayed under 1/4oz, or is it only for projectiles?
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Posted: 4/18/2024 8:17:29 AM EDT
[#16]
As far as I understand (take it with a grain of salt) such a thing may be legal but that wont keep the gayTF from coming after you. 37mm bangers and the like are a long standing example of being signaling devices, so it seems as if they are less likely to care.
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OH, USA
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Posted: 4/18/2024 3:53:06 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gunningallday: Don't mean to hijack the thread, but would everything discussed here also apply to a hand deployed 'bird banger' type device similar to the taggin/IWA ones assuming the total payload stayed under 1/4oz, or is it only for projectiles? The 1/4 ounce limit only applies to missiles(projectiles) |
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Posted: 4/19/2024 9:03:07 AM EDT
[#18]
Ahh, ok. So what about signal rockets then? Could I 3d print a rocket body with a pocket for an estes engine and a payload pocket for flash powder and have it not be considered a class B firework? Id assume that type of nuance would be how it is intended to be used, maybe how it is marked? That is another possible avenue.
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OH, USA
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Posted: 4/19/2024 9:40:42 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By hitchhiker: Ahh, ok. So what about signal rockets then? Could I 3d print a rocket body with a pocket for an estes engine and a payload pocket for flash powder and have it not be considered a class B firework? Id assume that type of nuance would be how it is intended to be used, maybe how it is marked? That is another possible avenue. Please just Google the legal definition of destructive device, read it slowly 5 times. As for fireworks/explosive laws, IDK. "The term “destructive device” shall not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by the Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of section 7684(2) , 7685 , or 7686 of title 10 , United States Code ; or any other device which the Secretary finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, or is an antique or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting purposes." |
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