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Posted: 4/7/2024 12:20:06 AM EDT
Needing to get a red dot for an AR9. Thinking a PA red dot but not sure how well they work under NODs. I know theres been some issues in the past with Holosuns optic coating not working well with NODs, but I think thats been pretty well resolved? Is PA good to go? or am I just stuck with the premier lines and getting a EOTech/Aimpoint?
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Posted: 4/7/2024 12:30:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: French1966]
[#1]
I have a newer primary arms (t2 pattern) micro dot that is just barely usable. Most of the cheap dots will work fine for passive shooting in high light environments. The mark of a good night vision passive optic is how it performs in dark conditions.
The other thing I’ve noticed is how the manufacturer focuses the LED. Cheap red dots will not emit a perfect dot when your night vision is focused at infinity. They will appear oblong or misshapen. Optics like Aimpoint and Eotech will hold their shape the same with night vision as they do during the day. My Holosun EPS Carry looks like a long football under nods. My primary arms example has proven to be just good enough to use, not terrible like some cheap model holosuns I’ve used, and definitely not as good as a quality NV compatible optic. The brightness settings seem appropriate, the dot isn’t super misshapen, and the image isn’t totally blacked out in darker conditions. Sample size of 1 though. So much more goes into it than brightness settings, but many budget optic companies add those low power settings so they can advertise the optic as being Night Vision compatible (even though they really aren’t suitable for NV use). On my 22lr trainer…  Attached File |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 4/7/2024 12:31:06 AM EDT
[#2]
I have a few older PA RDS and they work with NV and you can see through them but suffer in lower light conditions. IMHO you'd be better served with an Aimpoint, just be aware there is a difference in light transmission with some models.
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Posted: 4/7/2024 1:01:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: GreenMushroom]
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By French1966: I have a newer primary arms (t2 pattern) micro dot that is just barely usable. Most of the cheap dots will work fine for passive shooting in high light environments. The mark of a good night vision passive optic is how it performs in dark conditions. The other thing I’ve noticed is how the manufacturer focuses the LED. Cheap red dots will not emit a perfect dot when your night vision is focused at infinity. They will appear oblong or misshapen. Optics like Aimpoint and Eotech will hold their shape the same with night vision as they do during the day. My Holosun EPS Carry looks like a long football under nods. My primary arms example has proven to be just good enough to use, not terrible like some cheap model holosuns I’ve used, and definitely not as good as a quality NV compatible optic. The brightness settings seem appropriate, the dot isn’t super misshapen, and the image isn’t totally blacked out in darker conditions. Sample size of 1 though. So much more goes into it than brightness settings, but many budget optic companies add those low power settings so they can advertise the optic as being Night Vision compatible (even though they really aren’t suitable for NV use). On my 22lr trainer… https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/496867/IMG_9993_jpeg-3180707.JPG I have a couple of these and that mirrors my experience. Glass is kinda meh for nighttime use but dot is fairly crisp and the brightness controls are pretty well done. Not gonna fool anyone into thinking it's a t2 but solid for the price point. Overall I've been pretty impressed and they seem like a step up from the China dots of yesteryear and a good bang for the buck. Eta Another upside is these are at or near t2 height while it seems like a lot of the other offerings are taller. |
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Posted: 4/7/2024 1:47:42 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MunnyShot: I have a few older PA RDS and they work with NV and you can see through them but suffer in lower light conditions. IMHO you'd be better served with an Aimpoint, just be aware there is a difference in light transmission with some models. Your experience mirrors mine. My early gen PA red dot worked fine for passive aiming but the Aimpoint I upgraded to works that much better. |
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Posted: 4/7/2024 2:18:36 AM EDT
[#5]
Yeah, the above is what I was afraid of (and is my experience). The cheaper options are usable with nods but you really know where the money went when you buy the high end stuff. Seems that's still the case
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Posted: 4/7/2024 3:26:21 PM EDT
[#6]
The 1x Micro Prisim's work great
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USA
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Posted: 4/8/2024 11:18:23 AM EDT
[#7]
It's kind of hit or miss with the china optics. I have a couple Holosuns in the same model and they each vary in light transmission. One is usable, one is pretty much black unless you are using IR illuminator.
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Posted: 4/8/2024 3:25:31 PM EDT
[#8]
I have a couple cheap/PA RDS optics on NVG guns - mainly 22 or backup guns. I usually use some supplemental IR and it helps cut the bloom and makes the dot sharper.
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MI, USA
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Posted: 4/8/2024 3:34:17 PM EDT
[#9]
Can afford NODs but won't pony up for a better optic? :)
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Posted: 4/8/2024 3:37:01 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DetroitSounds: Can afford NODs but won't pony up for a better optic? :) Not everything needs the best of the best. The backyard plinker will be just fine with a lesser option. 
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MI, USA
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Posted: 4/8/2024 3:53:17 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 2JokersWild: Broseph. The 300Blkout runs an EOTech, the daytime go to AR15 has a Kahles and Perst, the Aug runs a Steiner, the nighttime AR15 has a 640 core thermal and the 10/22 has a 384 core thermal. Not everything needs the best of the best. The backyard plinker will be just fine with a lesser option. Whoa, ok I'm a dick. Haha.. . Funny though, I have a spare beater rifle at some extra land/ trailer I have and I looked at buying a PA for it. People seemed to rave about those prisms from PA. Ultimately, I couldn't do it and grabbed an LED 3.5x35 ACOG. |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 4/8/2024 4:12:54 PM EDT
[#12]
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Posted: 4/8/2024 4:54:34 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DetroitSounds: Whoa, ok I'm a dick. Haha.. . Funny though, I have a spare beater rifle at some extra land/ trailer I have and I looked at buying a PA for it. People seemed to rave about those prisms from PA. Ultimately, I couldn't do it and grabbed an LED 3.5x35 ACOG. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DetroitSounds: Originally Posted By 2JokersWild: Broseph. The 300Blkout runs an EOTech, the daytime go to AR15 has a Kahles and Perst, the Aug runs a Steiner, the nighttime AR15 has a 640 core thermal and the 10/22 has a 384 core thermal. Not everything needs the best of the best. The backyard plinker will be just fine with a lesser option. Whoa, ok I'm a dick. Haha.. . Funny though, I have a spare beater rifle at some extra land/ trailer I have and I looked at buying a PA for it. People seemed to rave about those prisms from PA. Ultimately, I couldn't do it and grabbed an LED 3.5x35 ACOG.   |
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USA
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Posted: 4/8/2024 5:11:48 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 10-8DoWork: It's kind of hit or miss with the china optics. I have a couple Holosuns in the same model and they each vary in light transmission. One is usable, one is pretty much black unless you are using IR illuminator. I don't understand why Holosun in particular can't get that clear, high performance light transmission from their micros like they apparently did with the AEMS. Can the greater lens size really account for it or did they actually use different coatings with the AEMS? According to T-Rex Arms the Vortex SPARC has great NV and parallax performance...but is then handicapped by a dumbass refresh rate, 1 MOA adjustment, and sub-par controls. |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 4/8/2024 11:12:15 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 2JokersWild: Oh i ddint read it being dickish, I mean shit there is some truth to the fact we'll drop 8 grand on NODs then try to scrimp on the optic. But its always good to not let perfect be the enemy of good enough. Especially when good enough is 1/3 the price Well said. 
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PA, USA
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Posted: 4/9/2024 8:45:25 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryDo you need to adjust focus for the microprism? Or pretty seamless to use like a red dot? |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 4/9/2024 11:29:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: shenendoah_rifleman]
[#17]
Why aren't other Holosun dots as good as the AEMS? Because the AEMS is 1.5x-2X the price of Holosun's other red dots.
Their newer EPS dots are also very good. |
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Posted: 4/9/2024 1:45:51 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Horrible_Aim: Do you need to adjust focus for the microprism? Or pretty seamless to use like a red dot? Not for me (I need 1x Readers, but no corrective lenses for further distances) - the diopter was adjusted for my naked eyes during daylight, and just infinity focus on the NV (That's pic is through an Aurora Pro, but it looks the same through my BNVD-SGs). |
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Posted: 4/9/2024 1:49:02 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By shenendoah_rifleman: Why aren't other Holosun dots as good as the AEMS? Because the AEMS is 1.5x-2X the price of Holosun's other red dots. Their newer EPS dots are also very good. I also just don't think they gave it a thought with the early models - my 407s, and 403G-ACSS suck, my 509T, and AEMS are great. |
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CAN
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Posted: 4/9/2024 5:28:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: CDN_Datawraith]
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mickdonaldson: I also just don't think they gave it a thought with the early models - my 407s, and 403G-ACSS suck, my 509T, and AEMS are great. I agree, my 403R is very meh for passive aiming while my 509T light transmission is beautiful BUT there is significant fisheye with 509T and AEMS during the day (at least every sample I've had the opportunity to look through and handle). Until Holosun figures out how to fix that and properly QA their batches for it, the AEMS is still a no-go for me unfortunately... Hopefully the new big AEMS has that fixed. |
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Posted: 4/9/2024 5:58:58 PM EDT
[#21]
My RMR has "fisheye" too - doesn't bother me on anything, fortunately.
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MO, USA
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Posted: 4/10/2024 1:22:48 AM EDT
[#22]
I'm my experience the 25mm do better than the 20mm.
I do have a RS10 on a .22 mkiv that does pretty decent too, but I run a TLR2 iR so mostly use laser for aiming with the Ruger |
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Posted: 4/10/2024 8:47:24 AM EDT
[#23]
For a dedicated night gun the1x prims is pretty good. I didn't like how I had to significantly change the diopter when going back and forth from nods to bare eye. It required a lot of cranking on the diopter. I have a Gen 1 though and I know they improved that.
I love the MD-25 red dot. Its my go to for cheaper NVG red dots. It won't compare to something over $500 but works great for spare rifles or a 22 LR trainer. |
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Posted: 4/10/2024 8:47:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Earax]
[#24]
deleted
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 4/10/2024 10:09:45 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryThe tight eye box would be a no go for me |
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IN, USA
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Posted: 4/10/2024 1:12:18 PM EDT
[#26]
Have you used one? I actually prefer my SLX 1x microprism to my Eotech overall. Obviously the Eotech is better for pure night vision use, but for low light/white light use I liked the microprism more. I never noticed any issue with eye box.
If you did experience issues, I’m not telling you that you’re wrong. I’m just saying it wasn’t something that I even noticed going from the eotech to the microprism. |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 4/10/2024 10:10:48 PM EDT
[#27]
I tried the 1x microprism tonight and was very impressed. The clarity is surprisingly good
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 4/10/2024 11:02:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: MunnyShot]
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RRAR15: Have you used one? I actually prefer my SLX 1x microprism to my Eotech overall. Obviously the Eotech is better for pure night vision use, but for low light/white light use I liked the microprism more. I never noticed any issue with eye box. If you did experience issues, I’m not telling you that you’re wrong. I’m just saying it wasn’t something that I even noticed going from the eotech to the microprism. A prism optic even at 1X will have a limited eye box and eye relief to see through the optic vs a RDS. Trying to passively aim with a magnified or prism optic is going to be slower vs a standard RDS. Throw in unconventional shooting positions will just complicate your ability to acquire your reticle quickly. |
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Posted: 4/11/2024 3:47:05 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MunnyShot: The tight eye box would be a no go for me Have you actually looked through this exact optic model? The eye box is almost infinite - you can put your eyebrow touching the diopter ring, or go all the way to full arm extension (like shooting a pistol) - and it works. Don't know how they did it, but they did. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 4/12/2024 3:28:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Rando_Calrissian]
[#30]
While the reticle was surprisingly crisp when everything was adjusted right, I did not have a good experience with the PA 1X Microprism for passive aiming. With my corrected vision, when the reticle is totally in focus for my eyes, it’s blurry when looking through my NODs set to infinity, or in focus through the NODs and blurry to the naked eye. When I say “blurry,” I don’t mean a little, I mean nearly invisible. It’s a lot of cranking on the diopter to adjust it for one or the other and mine is really difficult to turn to top it all off. For me at least, it was instantly obvious that it would be a no-go, and it was an absolute bummer because I have astigmatism and I have a hard time with red dots in the daytime and wanted a do-it-all solution. The Microprism wasn’t it.
For a cheap red dot that has good passive aiming performance, just grab a Holosun 403 and call it done. |
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