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OR, USA
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Posted: 10/5/2022 7:00:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: JonathanwFL]
Hypervelocity rockets Back in the 80s the US, tested some low cost and effective anti tank missiles / unguided rockets that used very fast speeds (5000 FPS) and a tungsten penetrator to break through armor. Later projects incorporated multi flechette warheads, and scaled up to work in the Hydra 70 rocket pods. I think this concept is well within the scope of the categories listed above. With the help of friends in the Rocket community, and my own growing experience with rocket based weapons , I think this is achievable goal. After I am finished with the M202 rocket launcher, I am planning to invest into the concept to build a civilian legal launch system for hypervelocity rockets . I’m still in the researching phase but I have found dimensions, cutaway photos, etc that will go on to help with the project. Now that my lawyer confirmed with the DOJ/ATF that inert payload rockets do not have a fuel limit, this won’t be a $200 tax every round . Since this is a historical build copying the original HVM/ SPIKE, I’ll be doing a book on the topic. So all my research will be made public and open  Hypervelocity Missile (HVM) If anyone knows more information about the hypervelocity missile program, feel free to share your experiences. I’ll likely be filing a form 1 for the launcher prior to the pistol brace ruling so my paperwork isn’t held up in that mess. |
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Posted: 10/5/2022 9:13:52 PM EDT
[#1]
You're really doing the Lords work.
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OR, USA
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Posted: 10/5/2022 9:35:18 PM EDT
[#2]
I'll take two! Awesome project.
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AL, USA
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Posted: 10/6/2022 3:25:30 PM EDT
[#3]
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Posted: 10/7/2022 12:25:00 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Landsat8: You're really doing the Lords work. QFT |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 10/23/2022 7:51:06 PM EDT
[#5]
This is amazing. It’s basically a man portable m256 120mm.
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OR, USA
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Posted: 11/25/2022 3:31:42 PM EDT
[#6]
I found a engineer that worked on one of these HVR projects. They were able to answer a ton of questions and I found some great military research papers on this type of rocket cover stabilization, airframe structure, nozzle, etc
This is something I’m researching on in the background while I wrap up the M202 project. Going to have to find a missile range or a really wide open desert when we get to the testing stage. I’d like to find a range that has targets down range to test the Penetrator |
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Posted: 11/29/2022 2:27:57 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JonathanwFL: I found a engineer that worked on one of these HVR projects. They were able to answer a ton of questions and I found some great military research papers on this type of rocket cover stabilization, airframe structure, nozzle, etc This is something I’m researching on in the background while I wrap up the M202 project. Going to have to find a missile range or a really wide open desert when we get to the testing stage. I’d like to find a range that has targets down range to test the Penetrator Jon, My ranch is in a bowl surrounded by cliffs and steep hillsides. I've got a 1k yard direct fire range. If you don't find somewhere better, would be happy to setup targets for you. |
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Posted: 11/29/2022 2:38:21 AM EDT
[#8]
OP, if you're going to fire remotely and the rocket is unguided, how will you articulate the launcher? Or are you just going to have Ben aim it for you?
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OR, USA
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Posted: 11/29/2022 3:31:49 AM EDT
[#9]
I appreciate the offer, and I’ll keep in mind when we get everything set up
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OR, USA
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Posted: 11/29/2022 3:39:57 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher: OP, if you're going to fire remotely and the rocket is unguided, how will you articulate the launcher? Or are you just going to have Ben aim it for you? A long string
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Posted: 11/29/2022 10:34:38 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JonathanwFL: A long string Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JonathanwFL: Originally Posted By backbencher: OP, if you're going to fire remotely and the rocket is unguided, how will you articulate the launcher? Or are you just going to have Ben aim it for you? A long string Not how you'll launch it - how will you aim it? How will the launcher traverse and adjust for range? |
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OR, USA
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Posted: 11/29/2022 7:45:15 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher: Not how you'll launch it - how will you aim it? How will the launcher traverse and adjust for range? Probably laser bore sight it, I have a Carl gustav optic I could add to it For move it it, probably steal a moveable gimbal from those camera stabilizers |
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Posted: 11/30/2022 6:35:06 AM EDT
[#13]
Originally Posted By JonathanwFL: With the heavy restrictions on explosives , destructive devices have largely been relegated to heavy artillery pieces, rifles (not affordable to most people) or portable launchers that can only fire chalk practice rounds which are cool but not usable in a second amendment capacity The explosives laws are likely to never change so how do we get an effective destructive device , that is reasonably portable, more affordable and can still be effective against hard targets without using explosives Hypervelocity rockets Back in the 80s the US, tested some low cost and effective anti tank missiles / unguided rockets that used very fast speeds (5000 FPS) and a tungsten penetrator to break through armor. Later projects incorporated multi flechette warheads, and scaled up to work in the Hydra 70 rocket pods. I think this concept is well within the scope of the categories listed above. With the help of friends in the Rocket community, and my own growing experience with rocket based weapons , I think this is achievable goal. After I am finished with the M202 rocket launcher, I am planning to invest into the concept to build a civilian legal launch system for hypervelocity rockets . I’m still in the researching phase but I have found dimensions, cutaway photos, etc that will go on to help with the project. Now that my lawyer confirmed with the DOJ that inert payload rockets do not have a fuel limit, this won’t be a $200 tax every round . Since this is a historical build copying the original HVM, I’ll be doing a book on the topic. So all my research will be made public and open source. https://i.imgur.com/1wM9i6b.jpg https://i.imgur.com/4rleTKV.jpg https://i.imgur.com/14f2TKA.jpg https://i.imgur.com/ONpXTB1.jpg https://i.imgur.com/4SlwoxA.jpg https://i.imgur.com/gr5vXm2.jpg https://i.imgur.com/G0CaD3F.jpg https://i.imgur.com/gfqGCNE.jpg  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfowprHFxy4There’s not a ton of information on the launcher they used in their tests outside of a grainy video so I will likely use my own design for the launch platform. Due to the risk of CATO in rockets, I would shoot it remotely anyway, so instead of a shoulder fired design, it’s would resemble more of Compact ATGM launcher with with a longer but skinner launch tube. Would be cool to incorporate things like thermals, range finder, and firing /ignition computer, etc . The goal would be two people could carry the launcher and 1-3 rounds of ammunition. This will require a lot of lightweight composite materials, luckily the M202 project will help me gain the needed experience to build the HVR launcher platform https://i.imgur.com/p09y7Tb.jpg https://i.imgur.com/hJsGr0b.jpg If anyone knows more information about the hypervelocity missile program, feel free to share your experiences. I’ll likely be filing a form 1 for the launcher prior to the pistol brace ruling so my paperwork isn’t held up in that mess. It just occurred to me that I have no idea what rifle is slung in that photo... |
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Posted: 11/30/2022 6:53:47 AM EDT
[#14]
It’s a FAMAS.
Is this like a CRV7? |
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OR, USA
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Posted: 11/30/2022 4:50:49 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: It’s a FAMAS. Is this like a CRV7? Very similar, in fact in early 2000s they made a hyper velocity version with a kinetic energy warhead called the Persuader The person I met work on both that project and SPIKE |
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Posted: 12/1/2022 5:31:56 PM EDT
[#16]
 400mph Rocket Knife |
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OR, USA
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Posted: 1/13/2023 5:27:43 PM EDT
[#17]
Filed my form 1 to build this launcher , currently pending research, hopefully doesn’t get dragged out like the M202 was
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Posted: 1/13/2023 5:33:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: PepePewPew]
[#18]
In the novel The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, rebels on the lunar colony attacked earth with falling cargo ships full of rocks. They hit like nukes.
There was a recent thread about an amateur rocket that boosted 11 miles straight up, and then coasted another 230,000 feet up (because it was traveling over 4000fps when the propellant was exhausted). Imagine weaponizing that thing. https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/Amateur-rocket-flight-to-293-488-feet-/5-2600947/  56 Miles (90 km) Above Earth - Successful Amateur Rocket Launch |
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OR, USA
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Posted: 1/29/2023 9:38:08 PM EDT
[#19]
Made some major headway on this project, found some excellent research papers that go over the rocket motor specs that will make it easier to replicate.
I have also found several members of the original spike project, and some of the surviving family members that passed away that have helped the best of their ability. They seem happy someone has taken interest in this topic and wants to tell their story |
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OR, USA
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Posted: 1/29/2023 9:39:17 PM EDT
[#20]
Also filed my form 1 but stuck in pending research as I don’t think they get many hypervelocity rocket launchers lol
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Posted: 6/20/2023 11:49:33 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JonathanwFL: Also filed my form 1 but stuck in pending research as I don’t think they get many hypervelocity rocket launchers lol 5 months later and my form 1 is approved . Still debating if I should make a ATGM looking launcher or a launcher that looks like a N-law . However it’s nice to know I can build the launcher itself, the rocket will take longer |
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Posted: 6/20/2023 12:13:29 PM EDT
[#22]
Why not design and test the rocket 1st, and let the launcher conform to that rather than the other way round?
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Posted: 6/20/2023 1:11:26 PM EDT
[#23]
What sort of propellant does a rocket that fast use?
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Posted: 6/20/2023 4:38:32 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher: Why not design and test the rocket 1st, and let the launcher conform to that rather than the other way round? I need the launcher to test the rockets. The rockets are a set size based on research documents as I have all the specs for them so it won’t really change in caliber or length Also I am likely moving soon so the rocket part will difficult to test so while I figure out a safe testing location, I can build the launcher in the meantime |
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Posted: 6/20/2023 4:39:54 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fsjdw2: What sort of propellant does a rocket that fast use? Apcp propellant that was originally used with a high amount of aluminum and burn rate catalysts. I found a reduced smoke version that I would like to try replicate |
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TN, USA
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Posted: 6/29/2023 10:12:01 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JonathanwFL: Made some major headway on this project, found some excellent research papers that go over the rocket motor specs that will make it easier to replicate. I have also found several members of the original spike project, and some of the surviving family members that passed away that have helped the best of their ability. They seem happy someone has taken interest in this topic and wants to tell their story Are you able to post that info here? I'd like to read it as well. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 6/29/2023 11:05:12 AM EDT
[#27]
What is the definition of “hyper velocity" ?
What is the threshold number to be greater than ? |
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Posted: 6/29/2023 11:47:00 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JonathanwFL: I need the launcher to test the rockets. The rockets are a set size based on research documents as I have all the specs for them so it won’t really change in caliber or length Also I am likely moving soon so the rocket part will difficult to test so while I figure out a safe testing location, I can build the launcher in the meantime To save effort, you could always put a guide rail on the side of the rocket and use a non-DD launcher for testing (no bore >0.5, no DD), or use a sub-caliber adapter in one of your existing launchers. I'm not sure anyone has explored this yet, but I'm starting to wonder if the launcher for a tube-launched rocket is actually a DD: When you look at the definition, it appears to require the launcher to expell the projectile. When you get into the weeds, the tube on a LAW or similar is really only a guide and protective shield for the operator. The rocket propels itself (vs being expelled by the launcher). You could remove a LAW rocket from the tube, sit it on a bench, and trigger it, and it would fly off as if it were fired from the tube. 
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Posted: 6/29/2023 4:16:52 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Number1gun: What is the definition of “hyper velocity" ? What is the threshold number to be greater than ? Around 5000 FPS for the rockets in this category |
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Posted: 6/29/2023 4:18:26 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Nameless_Hobo: Are you able to post that info here? I'd like to read it as well. Link to research Paper, starts around page 300 |
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Posted: 6/29/2023 5:43:42 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mechanical: To save effort, you could always put a guide rail on the side of the rocket and use a non-DD launcher for testing (no bore >0.5, no DD), or use a sub-caliber adapter in one of your existing launchers. I'm not sure anyone has explored this yet, but I'm starting to wonder if the launcher for a tube-launched rocket is actually a DD: When you look at the definition, it appears to require the launcher to expell the projectile. When you get into the weeds, the tube on a LAW or similar is really only a guide and protective shield for the operator. The rocket propels itself (vs being expelled by the launcher). You could remove a LAW rocket from the tube, sit it on a bench, and trigger it, and it would fly off as if it were fired from the tube. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mechanical: Originally Posted By JonathanwFL: I need the launcher to test the rockets. The rockets are a set size based on research documents as I have all the specs for them so it won’t really change in caliber or length Also I am likely moving soon so the rocket part will difficult to test so while I figure out a safe testing location, I can build the launcher in the meantime To save effort, you could always put a guide rail on the side of the rocket and use a non-DD launcher for testing (no bore >0.5, no DD), or use a sub-caliber adapter in one of your existing launchers. I'm not sure anyone has explored this yet, but I'm starting to wonder if the launcher for a tube-launched rocket is actually a DD: When you look at the definition, it appears to require the launcher to expell the projectile. When you get into the weeds, the tube on a LAW or similar is really only a guide and protective shield for the operator. The rocket propels itself (vs being expelled by the launcher). You could remove a LAW rocket from the tube, sit it on a bench, and trigger it, and it would fly off as if it were fired from the tube. That is how muslims launch rockets when they wish allah to guide it. A piece of angle iron, welded to a couple of feet so it sits at an angle, and allah guides the rocket to where he wills it, as muslim launched rockets have no idea where they are. |
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OH, USA
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Posted: 6/29/2023 5:45:56 PM EDT
[#32]
Lasers
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KY, USA
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Posted: 6/30/2023 8:00:04 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JonathanwFL: I need the launcher to test the rockets. The rockets are a set size based on research documents as I have all the specs for them so it won't really change in caliber or length Also I am likely moving soon so the rocket part will difficult to test so while I figure out a safe testing location, I can build the launcher in the meantime  https://www.siriusrocketry.biz/ishop/delrin-rail-buttons-2-pack-93.html 1010 rail:  https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001F0F10I?tag=arfcom00-20 |
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Posted: 7/9/2023 7:06:39 PM EDT
[#34]
So decided on building the launcher inspired by the M47 dragon but the main tube has three barrels. Two bottom barrels are aluminum and meant for rockets only the top barrel is 4130 steel so I can fire black powder Recoilless rounds out of it . Got a small team helping program the optic unit to ignite the ammunition, record video, sound an arming buzzer when the safety button is pressed, etc
Just got my barrels for the project, waiting on the main shell and will get started print the bulkheads that help the tubes in the fiberglass tube. Anyone know any custom foam companies to help make the foam protectors ?    
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Posted: 7/9/2023 9:29:41 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JonathanwFL: So decided on building the launcher inspired by the M47 dragon but the main tube has three barrels. Two bottom barrels are aluminum and meant for rockets only the top barrel is 4130 steel so I can fire black powder Recoilless rounds out of it . Got a small team helping program the optic unit to ignite the ammunition, record video, sound an arming buzzer when the safety button is pressed, etc Just got my barrels for the project, waiting on the main shell and will get started print the bulkheads that help the tubes in the fiberglass tube. Anyone know any custom foam companies to help make the foam protectors ? https://i.imgur.com/Vcp8qfV.jpg https://i.imgur.com/LN5QJUQ.jpg https://i.imgur.com/9czQWpD.jpg https://i.imgur.com/ujPT1Q2.jpg Jonathan, Have you considered that these rockets should be as long as practically possible? Particularly given their lacking an explosive penetrator? Based on current armor designs, it would be best to have a rocket a meter or more in length if possible. Ben |
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Posted: 7/9/2023 11:38:12 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ben: Jonathan, Have you considered that these rockets should be as long as practically possible? Particularly given their lacking an explosive penetrator? Based on current armor designs, it would be best to have a rocket a meter or more in length if possible.I posted a link too Ben The rockets are around 41 inch long, I’m going to build them to the spec I found in the research papers as they successfully test them as they figured out the correct weight distribution to make them stable. The barrels are 44in long so it should take up the majority of the barrel length   
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Posted: 7/10/2023 3:40:37 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JonathanwFL: The rockets are around 41 inch long, I’m going to build them to the spec I found in the research papers as they successfully test them as they figured out the correct weight distribution to make them stable. The barrels are 44in long so it should take up the majority of the barrel length https://i.imgur.com/fMEUFaY.jpg https://i.imgur.com/mowafEz.jpg https://i.imgur.com/I10Ot4C.jpg Excellent...just wanted to encourage sufficient length for maximum penetration. |
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Posted: 7/10/2023 12:19:45 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JonathanwFL: Anyone know any custom foam companies to help make the foam protectors ? |
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Posted: 7/10/2023 7:14:38 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Gingerbreadman: I think you should be able to DIY that with a hot wire knife and some sort of rotary jig. I just see cones, not complex curves. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Gingerbreadman: Originally Posted By JonathanwFL: Anyone know any custom foam companies to help make the foam protectors ? I think you should be able to DIY that with a hot wire knife and some sort of rotary jig. I just see cones, not complex curves. @guns762 |
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Posted: 7/10/2023 8:14:29 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher: @guns762 Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher: Originally Posted By Gingerbreadman: Originally Posted By JonathanwFL: Anyone know any custom foam companies to help make the foam protectors ? I think you should be able to DIY that with a hot wire knife and some sort of rotary jig. I just see cones, not complex curves. @guns762 Rotate jig and hot knife is a pretty good idea. Going to remember that. |
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Posted: 7/10/2023 8:34:35 PM EDT
[#41]
Will you realistically be able to achieve those velocities with only one stage and at or close to relative ground level?
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Posted: 7/10/2023 9:00:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: JonathanwFL]
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tommyidone: Will you realistically be able to achieve those velocities with only one stage and at or close to relative ground level? I have all the motor specs , a propellant formula designed for hypervelocity motors, have the help from 3 rocket experts (one that recently got a rocket into space) I’m feeling pretty confident that’s it’s possible. The original design I’m copying was tested hundreds of times and achieved these speeds so the design works. One of my concerns is about finding a safe place to test the rocket. I’m going to try write a letter to white sands missile range to see if they would allow us to test there and try find a sponsor to cover the cost of renting a section of range for a day. The other alternative is going way into the desert. According to the engineer they had a 20 mile buffer area. The large 2.75 variant of this could reach about 9/8 KM so this one which is scaled down can probably reach 4/5 KM |
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Posted: 7/10/2023 9:14:03 PM EDT
[#43]
In. Cool stuff. Keep posting progress!
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Posted: 7/13/2023 4:51:25 PM EDT
[#44]
If you throw a chute (and associated deployment hardware) in the nose cone and do a vertical launch, you should be able to test with the high power rocketry guys.
Of course, a static test (vertical with engine up) onto a load cell can tell you a lot too. In both cases, you'll have the rocket to examine afterwards, vs a horizontal launch that'll destroy it. It seems like these are the sort of rocket that would toast your face, if shoulder fired. What sort of launcher are you going for? A shielded panzershreck looking thing? Or a tripod/vehicle mounted remote launch thing? Or a javelin style soft launch? Will the rocket be consistent enough in performance to be accurate and effective without a guidance system? Remember, you won't have the benefit of a warhead, so it'll need to be relatively accurate. Or is this going to be a Hydra rocket pod sorta deal? Do you have plans to put a WC core in the rocket? WC drill rod is fairly simple to obtain. 
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Posted: 7/13/2023 9:43:58 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mechanical: If you throw a chute (and associated deployment hardware) in the nose cone and do a vertical launch, you should be able to test with the high power rocketry guys. Of course, a static test (vertical with engine up) onto a load cell can tell you a lot too. In both cases, you'll have the rocket to examine afterwards, vs a horizontal launch that'll destroy it. It seems like these are the sort of rocket that would toast your face, if shoulder fired. What sort of launcher are you going for? A shielded panzershreck looking thing? Or a tripod/vehicle mounted remote launch thing? Or a javelin style soft launch? Will the rocket be consistent enough in performance to be accurate and effective without a guidance system? Remember, you won't have the benefit of a warhead, so it'll need to be relatively accurate. Or is this going to be a Hydra rocket pod sorta deal? Do you have plans to put a WC core in the rocket? WC drill rod is fairly simple to obtain. Yeah I’m going to work on several static test to optimize the propellant formula and possibly a vertical flight as you stated The launcher has 3 barrels, the top barrel is steel for black powder Recoilless ammunition I can fire off the shoulder. The bottom two barrels are exclusively for the rockets . I won’t shoulder fire any rockets as a CATO is extremely deadly so I’ll just put a clear blast shield to protect the optics and fire from safe direction According to CAT Flight Services that assisted on the SPIKE it had an accuracy of 3.2 CIP which from my understanding is very good for rockets. The rockets are super fast, spin stablizing with effective split flare fins  |
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Posted: 7/13/2023 9:54:09 PM EDT
[#46]
   Still a work in progress but here’s where I’m up to on the rocket      Got some more components for the launcher, gotta fire up the printer for the bulkheads   
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Posted: 7/13/2023 10:33:46 PM EDT
[#47]
That is a LOT of cylindrical burning surface.
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Posted: 7/13/2023 11:18:27 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher: That is a LOT of cylindrical burning surface. Yeah that’s how the specs say the propellant grain is laid out   
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Posted: 7/14/2023 9:45:30 AM EDT
[#49]
Jonathan, question. Are you going to test the anti armor rocket against an armor target of some kind?
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Posted: 7/14/2023 10:50:38 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By walkinginadangerzone: Jonathan, question. Are you going to test the anti armor rocket against an armor target of some kind? If anyone wants to donate an armored vehicle, I’d be happy to shoot it
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