There may be "more to this" as you say, but, after my lawyer consultation, I did what was recommended.  It made sense to me before I called the ATF, and it played out as my counsel predicted (to this point).  I am about as happy as possible at this time.

If it goes "further" than my form-1 making it OK, and  I am called, visited, raided etc.., the advice I was given was to STFU.   The person I'm going to be paying to represent me feels that it is unlikely that .gov would try to go after people that can, in court, demonstrate that they made every effort to act within the law.  

There are likely hundreds or thousands of people that purchased items that do not have a form-1 in hand or pending.  Regardless of one's feelings about the whole NFA situation as a whole, or whether or not we should have to pay a tax to protect our ears, those people that actually could be convicted of a crime are much more likely targets than the people posting in this thread.

It's a monument to the absurdity of the NFA that this thread even exists.  I'm just confident that, while the money part would suck, I'm not a good "risk" for .gov to go after.  Going after the form-1 people who tried to do it "right" opens a Pandora's box in court.  Many questions the powers that be don't want answered might be answered out of necessity, and nobody knows how that all ends.

Yea I got a letter and contacted my lawyer right away too, but my real sit down is in a few days probably due to the flood of people contacting lawyers(so mr ATF man that is monitoring this I am making contact, it's just not as quick to get in touch with lawyer because of this). I have many form 1's and am good (I just always hear don't talk to LEO on legal maters have your lawyer do it). And I have individual and on trust (all in same name to make it easier on them)

on a side note I saw this today at the home store
it had a dimple

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No disparity that I can think of. I'm not prohibited. I followed the letter of the law. Have forms, but used trusts all pre 41F so no BG Check so cross reference was likely hard to determine. Why they seized the part kind of makes sense but why I'm treated differently only makes sense because that's how the government works...

I was told and gained permission for audio documentation that I was not in trouble did not have a case pending and was not under investigation, nor was i incriminating myself by completing with the agents request.

Like the guy said on p.4 this is a cleanup job. They are collecting parts they deem illegal and their directions on how to accomplish their goals are clear as mud..

They told me how to stay legal moving forward as I continue to get form 1s and build cans. And that one dealer part may be legal while another is not. Its intent. Since I bought thenoarts without a direct intent with a form ib was intending to build it on or designs plans etc it was simply a contraband part they needed to take. I think if there had been an issue I would be talking to you guys 4 days later. If they are coming for me at least they had the decency to not hit me on friday so I'd have to wait till money for a bail hearing.

I think this is being handled post ex facto and similar to post 82 auto sears. Destroy them or give them to us now and you wont have trouble. I didnt hear about anyone going to jail for a post 82 auto sear that handed it in when the atf asked. Maybe I'm wrong bit those that got time weren't the ones that surrendedered them which I'm sure a did.

Also I got no letter but have lodged several complaints with fedex for bad service in the past 2 months which only helps my case should there be one.

Anyway I'll keep in touch on this every so often so you know my status.

I'm going to keep that for my defense portfolio ;)

Double post

@Timberwulfen

They told you how to build legal form 1 cans and that some vendors parts are good to go me some aren’t… what did they say?

That’s so nebulous.

Might want to be careful, that's an unregistered suppressor part as well as an unregistered destructive device. In fact all of our homes are brimming with unregistered destructive devices when you consider all the plumbing and piping and Taco Bell consumed.

Someone should send "the letter" to the Home Depot corporate office with a copy of that pic.  See if we can get the Home Depot lawyers hassling the ATF lawyers

That's also a 0% frame




Yep, they told me with regime changes, the laws and interpretations change. They were pretty cool about it. How it all came up is I asked why they needed the spacers too as they were just TI rings and 6" inner tube on the same order as they are also said anywhere. The one agent went on to say that it's all because the end cap had a dimple, and because it technically should have been transferred of a f4 there was no way to make it legal, even with an approved f1. And the key is that for them I guess it proved intent that it was for a suppressor. Since it was considered a suppressor the other parts on the order also then were considered a suppressor too. He said had I bought the rings from a different hop it wouldn't have been a problem because I was going a legal route. Made sense actually.i mean the law doesnt and the dimple is kinda meh, but given the explaination it did. I didnt get a knock after stda was raided and I bought a ton from Darrell, even had my build on their forums, so I can't imagine this could be anything more than they said. If it had been they had a beginning to end tutorial lol. But I had to send something back to Darrell for engraving and had to provide my papers. So I have a feeling those were on file so there were no issues. In this situation I my name popped up, couldn't cross reference to a BG from a pre41 trust and so they wanted to get eyes on me. Since the wasnarts were all stillman the bags and there was a non built form o just needed to surrender the parts so I didnt have trouble. I'm just hoping its behind me now. At first I couldn't even find them but after some searching for the spacers they were in my tool bag, I has actually tried using one as a shim under a cabinet at one point but it ws too low, glad i didnt have to rip my cabinets out lol.

The most baffling part (no put intended) was that they shipped FedEx. Do bad I never got the letter I probably would have headed this all off at the pass like the rest of you.

No, no it doesn't. These statements contradict one another.
If having an approved form1 showed your legal intent, from different vendors, than it would show the exact same thing if everything was purchased from DM.

You didn't want "trouble" and so you complied w/ the gov't. Fine, that's your business. But, don't try to justify it to the rest of us with ridiculous statements.
The parts either are silencers or aren't. They either have proof of your intent or they don't.
They want the ability to change the game and the rules, at their own whim, and you're fine with that. Most of us, however, aren't.

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I'm not fine with it, I'm not willing to die On the sword for a hunk of metal though. I don't have spare fun money to treat this is a good way to make a test case to get a determination.

The key is my intent was to build a suppressor so I filed a form 1. Every item I bought after that from grocery item to nut and bolt may have crossed my mine if it would make a good design but I can't tell you my exact intent on everything I did 5 years ago let alone on and with several open forms there is no one form I could say I intended to make it on specifically where I did or didn't. Onle thing I can say for sure is they I had multiple approved, unmade form one's before purchasing the questionable items and that I was attempting to obey the law as it is vaguely and wildly conflicting at times to the best of my ability.

I still have forms open without completed cans. If I buy a pack of chore boys I don't want to be accused of anything other than buying them for legal purposes. No matter what I buy, with a form one unfinished I don't see how that can ever  be questioned. If the guy next to me can buy it wouldnt have a question of intent then why am I not held to an equal standard. Now understanding the dimple thing, I don't agree with it, I don't see it anywhere in any law or any guidance when I purchased it. There is also no definition of when a can is completed being made (that I know of) but surely if I don't have it assembled and haven't shot through it it certainly can't be considered mmade. But the not being able to remake a contrabandd item into a non banned item is what made sense to me....though we do have demills and an open amnest period on the books so there is some confliction.

Again my take away is that they couldn't cross reference me. They have been told the part is cotranband after the fact. They came out, saw I had forms, heard me say I had not used the part in sonstruction of a silencer,and gave me an option to surrender it without incriminating myself or gamble, knowingly being in possession of a contraband part. To me that's all it was.

Now had I not had a form, well then I probably would have met Miranda and gotten a nice new shiny bracelet.

If they return, I'll tell them I complied with the initial request as:
1. They told me I was not in any trouble.
2. I provided proof of obeying the law showing them an approved and open form 1.
3. They told me I would not be incriminating my self.
4. They told me if I continued possession after being made aware, could subject me to problems. So I complied and surrendered the parts as requested.
They had positioned it such I felt I had no other choice but to comply or risk jeopardy.

I'll kindly let them know that's all I have to say and i feel I need an attorney now as my rights may have been violated.

This is where I'll end my piece unless the terrain shifts.

Your case has been different from everyone else so far.  Cratus 47/95 kit purchasers got visits, your visit was not from non-complaince to Fedex letter.  No one else that didn't reply has gotten visits.  Some of the poeple that resolved fedex letter over the phone were just told they were good without giving their names, an indication they may not even be checking people off a list and just fishing for turn ins without an effort into follow ups.  It would be interesting to know why you were singled out still.  If I had the same visit not sure how it would go down.  No letters or visits, but I've gifted or resold (unbuild) most of the items I ordered.  Some of DM's earlier stuff wasn't center marked, which I'm not sure they are even aware of.

Do you happen to know what the outcome was for the guys with the Cratus kits?  Just turn it in and that was it, or did any go further than that?

I built a can using some parts from Diversified Machine, and a letter was sent to my former residence.  I had an approved form 1 before I even ordered the parts.  

Who do I call at the ATF?  Should I call the field office in Flint, MI, or the field office near my former residence, or the local field office where I currently live?

My local office had me call the flint office. Ymmv

I never got a call back from my local office.

I did get a call back from Detroit (Flint?)

313 202 3400

What was in the Cratus kit?

It looks like it was some sort of monocore kit, but I haven't found a picture of exactly what it was and what was left undone.

Yeah it was a monocore.  It only needed the end of it drilled out, the rest was already drilled.  

I have read that Dead Air gets around that being a suppressor part by producing their blast enhancer that uses it.  Don't know if it's true.

I believe Rugged produces their RX blast diverter for the same reason. I didn't see Dead Air's version on their site though.

so, what I had was a cratus 47 kit, but did not have that part.

It was only a TI tube, end cap and threaded end. no baffles.

the end cap did have a dimple.

Interesting.  Maybe it was a thing where DM sold the tube and end caps, while another vendor was pushing the monocore part?

I remember seeing them both for sale, but its been such a long time that I don't remember the details as to where I saw what.  I guess I just assumed if people were getting visits for the monocore part that it came from DM.

yeah, my purchase was like 6 years ago.

I knew those stupid "muzzle break" kits were gonna be trouble when SIG couldn't' get away with it.

This. So strange that they singled him out, and dedicated two agents for hours to follow up if just for a few parts from DM.

What I don't understand is why they want to raid and shut down a company that in the end, ends up making them a bunch of money in form 1 builds.
See sig line.

I talked to agent Hurt from Flint Yesterday, All he wanted was my name, my Trust name and addy. He said anybody with a Form1 has nothing to worry about, He did not care if I bought a kit or spacers. He also said they were working on getting new letters out to anyone who has a Form1 that they can disregard the warning letter. Also said they are not confiscating any parts or built Form1's.

They have been getting physical visits without search warrants for a while.  Reports are vague but no arrests, some voluntary turn ins.




It was a Zmachine product.  An enterprising individual had cups and "monocore like" devices made in China that were designed to fit DM Parts.  Others said you could buy them directly from DM (??), DM stopped making cones and was using Zmachine as the source for cones on their kit offerings.

https://deadairsilencers.com/press-releases/new-dead-air-armament-pyro-tames-muzzle-blast-and-recoil/

Except when they advertise it on their website as a “supressor front cap” and advertise a reduction in sound over a .30 end cap.

I’m not banging on Dead Air, other suppressor mfgrs sell similar caps.  I am pointing out the “inconsistency” of the ATF’s interpretations.

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So, threaded tubes that happened accept off the shelf silencer caps/mounts would have been gtg?(until they weren't. Lol)

I don't speak stupid so I don't know what the ATF interpretation would be, but all the "blast diverters" that use suppressor end caps that I'm aware of are ventilated along the sides and those that are not ventilated don't have end caps.

I would expect that an empty tube with an endcap and no baffles still qualifies as a suppressor, so do with that what you will.

I meant that if someone like diversified machine had sold a tube that was threaded in the ends to use parts that are off the shelf from other manufacturers (mount adapters and end caps specifically), would the outcome have been the same?(of course we can't really know, and as far as I can remember this stuff wasn't available at the time)


Also, a couple of things that were always "how's that ok?" To me were the flaming pig and the AK brake it was modded after.  They have a baffle in them. They're literally just shitty silencers. Lol

did they give you anything in writing? Any ETA on the new letter?

the inconsistency with different people is interesting and ONE person that got a visit.

It seems like they may have sent them out in batches.  If I remember right as recent as a week ago other people were just getting them.

So maybe they are batched alphabetically or something? Who knows.  For what its worth I got mine on the first day people started getting them and my last name is toward the beginning of the alphabet.

Nothing in writing and no ETA on the letter.

I went ahead and emailed Agent Hurt a scan of the letter and a copy of my eform1 -- nothing they don't already have, and I didn't say anything in the email except to please direct this to the appropriate person.

He emailed back confirming it was received.

If it bumps me to the bottom of their list or removes me entirely then mission accomplished.

Probably a smarter move, not mentioning if parts were used or not.  Did they actually ask for the email?  Some of the callers to Flint office have just been asked over the phone if they had a form 1.  Copy not requested, name not taken down, indicating there may not be a check off list.

How could they check you off a list if they don't take your name?

Caller ID?
Come on man, it's the government haha!

typo... some people that called Flint office were asked about form 1 and then told they were good, without providing info and without sending a form 1.  It's possible there isn't a check off list, and they are just trying to get some level of compliance.

This was my experience. He asked if I had a form 1 for the stuff I bought. I told him yes and he said that the form 1 was all the proof that I needed. He asked for my name and that was it.

Thinking on the conversation, it sounds like a shit ton of people called them and they had a list of people to call back and he wanted my name to make sure it wasn't on that list.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ae0pZzwxFHg

Washington Gun Law called ATF Flint office, was forwarded to ATF Legal Council based out of Seatle.  Basically got different answers this go around.

Questiions and answers start at 5:55

Are unbuilt Solvent traps Suppressors? - Yes.  Doesn't appear answer is specific to DM, but that that ATF made the determination that DM's were intended to turned in suppressors later.  

Solvent Traps that were converted:  Suppressors - they are not taking prosecution off the table for complying with letter and turning in parts.

Solvent Traps that were converted but have valid form 1 approved: Legal Council says these completed Form 1s by end users will need to be turned in.  DM would have needed to have had a form 1, then user would have needed a form 4 for this to have been legal.  Your silcencer will be removed from NFFTR.  Will need to surrender or show proof of distruction.  

If ATF council opinion is put into action the group that has a Form 1  will be cracked down harder on than people that didn't do Form 1 applications.

fuck all that.

The ATF has absolutely ZERO continuity between their offices!
One office will tell you you're on fire and the next will tell you you're drowning.
Maybe we need to consult biden on this subject haha!

That's not how it works.
ATF doesn't even know their own shit.

I hope some of this ends up in court so people can see how silly this stuff is.

I wonder if the ATF has determined if there was any difference in the products people bought from DM.

It looks like some people bought basically a turn key, monocore silencer that needed an end cap drilled, some people bought a piece of tubing or a flash hider and every combination in between.

I'd love to see a representative from the ATF convincing people that an undrilled end cap is a silencer or a tube with no holes in it is a silencer.

On the Silencer Shop accessory pages you can buy uncontrolled and finished end caps, adapters, and spacers.