I dont have any DM parts.

How do we get all these threads stickies?

It’s hard following the many threads

Subscriptions page. Use it.

Someone on reddit is saying they called the ATF and were told form 1's for DM customers would be rescinded depending on what they ordered.  Who knows if its true or not.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Form1/comments/sfbypc/update_on_dm_shit/?utm_term=1718805360&utm_medium=post_embed&utm_source=embed&utm_name=&utm_content=header

I saw that.  At this point I have no idea what to believe.

Yeah no kidding.  I wish people would just stop calling the ATF and digging for more answers.  It's not productive and doesn't really change anything.  Whatever is going to happen is going to happen.  The constantly moving goal post does nothing but stress people out.

Everybody clutching their pearls and calling the ATF are not helping. STFU and move on with your life.

This.

The way I look at it, I got a letter that said to contact my local field office so I did. They had me talk to a guy at a different office so I did. Dude told me that since I had a form 1 I was gtg.  I'm good as far as I'm concerned. If they have an issue, they can send me another letter.

If people are getting told they're ok and calling back again, I don't think that's productive. If you got a letter, handle it and move on.

Right

Agreed, I talk to agent Dustin Hurt provided him my form 1. He said your good to go and this would be the last call I would have to make. Also said they were pushing for another letter to be sent out to basically say if you had a form 1 prior to using the parts you bought from DM you were good to go. At this point I’m chalking it up as that and moving on. If they show up on my front porch and kill my dog I’ll get a lawyer then and go about my business.

About a week ago Flint forwarded attorney calls to ATF Legal and they had a different answer and mentioned removing Form 1s from registry, changed website seizure notice, and a couple days ago Flint guidance shifted.  Whatever the field office tells you is non-binding for ATF.

Unless it comes from Congress or SCOTUS nothing anyone tells you is binding for the ATF. What will be will be.

I don’t disagree with you at all, it can change at any hour of the day. However I have contacted my local field office. I contacted the “managing” agent over the case all within the 30 day term giving in the letter. At this point I’m done as there is nothing else I can do. Even if I wanted to “abandon” my form 1 item I couldn’t because local atf isn’t taking them. If they change and want to remove my form 1 from the registry and want me to do whatever then I’ll get an attorney (have already spoken with one prior to giving the atf my form 1) and go from there. With that said it doesn’t make this situation any less unnecessary and unnerving.

Especially after that 2017? letter from the, then current, AG.

I’ve had a few tonight. What letter are you referring to?

@Luke_Y
My link is dead so I'm trying to find another copy.
The AG, at the time, issued a letter than none of its dept's (ATF is under DOJ which is run by AG) were to write opinion letters and everything must have (I believe it said) DOJ guidance. None of that is verbatim, I need to find the original letter.

Apparently the field offices have no interest in this and are directing people to email their info to [email protected] as the Detroit office is the one driving it.

For what it's worth.

The Washington Gun Lawyer guy again


His local field office did not view parts as suppressor parts and would not accept turn in of even unbuild parts.  Previously ATF Legal said to contact to field office to turn in unbuild parts, and completed Form 1 builds.  Said ATF "official" response is to send all inquires to:

[email protected]

At this point even the ATF doesn't know what's going on and it's own plan

The last thing he says is

This bungling ratfuck does give me hope that the agency is simply too incompetent to ever actually step on the snake. It's all a paper tiger.

Amen and awomen

I don't know why you guys think every field office should know what the other is doing. Regardless of whether or not this is .gov bureaucracy, it's the way large corps work.
They probably have thousands of active cases and investigations going on. Why would/should CA or VA need to know what Detroit is doing? The amount of communications they'd need, to keep everyone up to date, would slow the entire system down. Yes, I understand "call your local field office", but that's only a direction given by the same people who couldn't proof read their own letter.

Don't try to make logical sense out of any of this. They've never made sense and never will.

To each their own I guess.  

My counsel had me go a different route.  The ATF agent I dealt with was polite and professional.  I have written confirmation of what I was told by said agent.

It was his opinion (that I now share) that reaching out in there manner I did would likely take a home visit or worse off the table.  

There is no way to "defend" against a moving "interpretation" of the law.  There is, however, the ability to show, in court if needed, that you made every possible effort to comply with the law at the time of your actions.

I get the whole FATF thing, but my polite interaction has, in the eyes of my counsel, increased my ability to demonstrate law-abiding intent.  It makes me someone that, were they to attempt to prosecute me, would be able to raise questions that the DOJ probably doesn't want a judge or jury directly addressing.  

As a final thought: contacting the ATF doesn't mean you have to incriminate yourself.  If the conversation goes that direction at all, you can always stop talking.

I felt like the agent I talked to understood my frustration and the conversation literally was simply "yes, you can send me the form-1" and the email reply to disregard the letter as my silencer was legal was sent almost immediately.

Would you mind sharing who signed off on said letter?
Curious how far up the chain it's tied to.

It’s a secret

Delete

Secret, as in I posted a pic of the email I received in this thread?

That kind of secret?

It was "just" from the agent I spoke with.

I find it amusing that sending the ATF a copy of a form from their office, maintained by their office, clears things up.

It's almost like if that is all they need, they could check for it before they sent out letters or contacted people.

They are testing compliance of their BS.

The dude I talked to said that I didn't need to.

...but they sent you a letter without checking if you'd done any form 1's.

The rationale was that there were too many trusts to efficiently cross reference.

Correct. The agent was even irritated by that.

You know how the asshole in another department at your work sometimes tells someone to go to you about a problem that you are not even peripherally involved with?

Yeah, the Detroit ATF office was that guy......

🤣

Probably. He mentioned hundreds of calls that needed to be returned and just seemed really irritated by the way they went about this.

This thread was started on 12/30.  We still have no idea what is going on.

We won't know after the AFT no knock and sodomy, either

I’ve been keeping up with this thread daily just to see if there are any updates that might have happened. This whole thing is one giant cluster.

Someone posted this on form1.org today.  A few days ago he called his local field office and was told that everyting DM sold was illegal, and all supressors built from those parts are illegal and must be destroyed.  Even those with a form 1.

Today he talked to the Flint office and was told something a little different.  TLDR:  Form 1s probably will get revoked at some point.  People will get notified and it will be a destroy or turn in situation.  Apparently no one is going after DM customers, just DM.  But still seems like a fluid situation and the ATF is figuring it out as they go.  

Whole thing just seems like a complete failure of ATF at the leadership level.

Yea
Wow following this and it’s just random updates of completely different information.

TLDR:  Not limited to Diversified Machine.  Form 1 is invalid.

New Autoresponse from Detroit ATF

Under the National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. §§ 5861(b)-(c), it is unlawful for any person to receive or possess a firearm transferred to him or her in violation of the NFA or made in violation of the NFA. This includes silencers and silencer parts, regardless of manufacturer.



This email account was set up to answer questions from individuals who received letters regarding Diversified Machine parts. There may be other manufacturers creating silencer parts without complying with the law, as described below.



A silencer is defined under the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA) and the National Firearms Act to mean “any device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing the report of a portable firearm, including any combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for use in assembling or fabricating a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, and any part intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication.” See 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(24).



In other words, a silencer is any item intended to function as a silencer, any combination of parts for assembling or fabricating a silencer, and any part that exists solely for the purpose of making a silencer. As a NFA firearm, silencer/part(s), must be registered by the manufacturer or maker of the firearm in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record (NFRTR). See 26 U.S.C. § 5841.



A limited exception exists for special occupational taxpayers (SOT) engaged in the business of manufacturing silencers who possess unregistered silencer parts. However, SOT manufacturers must register upon first engaging in the business of manufacturing NFA firearms, including silencers.



Possession of any previously unregistered part that exists solely for the purpose of making a silencer is in violation of the NFA, regardless of further modifications and/or the subsequent submission of an ATF Form 1.



ATF is aware that some Diversified Machine silencer/part(s) were subsequently registered in the NFRTR as a making on an ATF Form 1 by the present possessor. This registration was contrary to law. An ATF Form 1 does not alleviate the previous unlawful transfer or registration of the silencer or silencer parts.  You should be aware that any silencer or silencer part that was unlawfully registered will be removed from the NFRTR.  



Upon request, ATF will assist with a determination of whether the item is a silencer as defined by the NFA. If necessary, the device may need to be sent to the Firearms and Ammunition Technology Division for classification.



The law applies to any silencer including parts intended only for the assembly or fabrication of a silencer. It does not matter what company originally made it.  If silencer/part(s) were not registered at the time of manufacture, it is unlawful to possess. We are happy to assist with determinations as to silencer/part(s) in your possession- regardless of the manufacturer.



Destruction of silencer/part(s) may be accomplished by crushing, shredding, or melting the parts, such that they no longer meet the legal definition of a silencer and cannot be reassembled into a silencer.



If you have transferred the silencer/part(s), then you should provide us the name of the transferee.

As I sit wondering what will happen because someone bought a collection of tube, spacers and solid disks that with some modification may or may not become a suppressor I cant help but think what this means for other NFA items.

You can make an SBR out of available parts that require no machining and a novice could put together in 45 minutes. An AR pistol can be turned into a SBR in 5 seconds with no machining, a SBS can be made in 15 seconds with a grinder. No magic and no special skill needed and you have an NFA item, yet until you actually do put a stock on it or cut the barrel you are good. Also as long as you haven’t crossed the arbitrary line you are allowed to submit a Form 1 for permission to make your own SBR or SBS. Even if you have all the parts already and a pending stamp you are not violating any law just having parts sit around while you wait for permission to assemble them.

If buying some tube, spacers and solid disk are a silencer and illegal how is having a spare parts collection not the same as having an unregistered SBR? Or owning a shotgun and a grinder? Hell at least the the solvent trap requires you to actually modify some material for them to become an NFA item versus just assembling parts.

I don't think there will be any issues with SBR's or anything else.  I think the reason there is an issue with silencers is that the federal definition of a silencer is insanely broad.  The whole "designed or redesigned" part basically gives them the ability to say anything is a silencer part if it was modified to build a silencer.  Combine that with the whole "silencer parts are silencers" and its just impossible to build a form 1 silencer with anything but raw materials because the ATF could swoop in and make this same claim they are with all the parts people have been using to build form 1 cans for the last 7+ years.

Not saying I agree with all this... a broad definition like that is bullshit and should never be acceptable, but this seems to be what is going on.  I don't believe the definitions for any other NFA items are written this way.

It’s all just so arbitrary. If I take one of the DM kits and put it on the end of my gun without modifying it (drilling it out) it sure as shit isn’t going to be a silencer when I shot a round through it. I bet it makes a hell of a noise and probably blows the gun up. Any piece of metal with a threaded hole in it is a silencer based on this as it would have the same effect as popping a round of with an undrilled DM kit.

I agree It’s a bullshit definition and it appears they are planning on using the broadest interpretation possible.

Here’s a link to an update from Mr. Kirk. What a damn mess.

https://youtu.be/DFaaqrGJJCw

I just paid Prince for a retainer on this. I'm not talking to these guys directly or putting my email in the database just for them to change their mind and I'm not surrendering shit I made from scratch (boring solid titanium rod to make tube and everything) because of a thread adapter.

If you don’t mind me asking what’s his retainer price for this issue?

And how would they possibly know which Form 1s to revoke, unless, of course, you voluntarily disclosed that information to them over phone/email for some reason? There’s nothing on a Form 1 which asks you to attach a parts list.

The closest they could do is try and correlate dates of submitted/issued Form 1s from the NFA database to purchases from DM, and that doesn’t prove anything (not that they need proof). Plus, they’ve already admitted that type of cross reference is “too hard” because of trusts and other lame excuses.

Or, are they saying they’ll revoke ALL Form 1s? Can’t imagine they’ll get far with that, but I’ve been wrong plenty.

Non-legal advice: Spend less time losing sleep over this. Whatever ends up happening will happen and there’s not really anything you can do to change it. Those with approved Form 1s are clearly attempting to follow the intent of the law, and if it comes down to it, should be easy to prove that.

Non-legal advice from Obi-Wan:

Which means nothing as they can just later change their classification, see bump stocks, braces, et al.