I have a hole in my collection. A 9mm carbine.

Usefulness for me…

Supressed/subsonic 9mm goodness
Night shooting without pissing off the neighbors
Night pest eradication
Cheaper trainer
Most importantly, fun

A MP5 clone has been on the want list for a long time. I was a kid of the 90s and every high speed unit had the MP5, so I’ve always wanted one. The price was always just a little beyond what I was willing to pay… Until now with the Turkish imports.

They still aren’t cheap, but if I dedicate a couple months of my gun budget I could put one in the stable finally. But, then it’s another $200 for a stamp, and then another few hundred bucks to set it up to shoot it under NVGs. That’s starting to look like a significant portion of this years gun budget, and it’s an election year, so I should probably stock up on some primers/powder.

The other option is a PSA 9mm upper and some endo mag conversions on my SBR AR lower. Yeah, not a sexy MP5. Yeah blow back.

But it does everything I need to do and I could have it set up for less than $500. Same manual of arms as my primary defensive rifles. Better training platform. Plenty of money left over for powder, primers, ammo, etc.

My one hesitation is whether or not the cheap Turkish imports are here to stay. The PSA upper makes sense on paper. I just worry the Turkish imports won’t last or the exchange rates will change, otherwise I’d just put it off until next year.

Any thoughts?

MP5, no contest. Simple blowback 9mm ARs suck in comparison. Especially since suppression is a goal.

Primer and powder costs fluctuate, but I seriously doubt we will see AP5s as inexpensive as they are now in years to come.

Extar EP9

AP5

/thread

I wrestled with this choice for many years and I went down the “anything but mp5” road for years since the choices were either real HK for astronomical prices because of everyone buying them up for sear hosts and “authentic” conversions, Todd Bailey’s panoply of companies of questionable clones, or equally astronomical custom builds from the limited builders on the market.

I finally caved and bought a PTR from Atlantic a few years ago.  None of the other 9mm PCC things I’ve played with in twenty years has been as flat-out fun to shoot as the MP5 clone.  The only real downside to them are magazines are kinda pricey compared to other stuff but it does come down to buy-once, cry-once and move on.

I also bought the K-version PTR and it’s just as much fun.  I went PTR since they’ve been around for twenty-some years and I’ve had success with their .308 and 7.62x39 guns.  Absolutely no regrets and I’ve SBR’ed both.

You’re living in the golden age of MP5 right now.  It’s a great time for it and the aftermarket is solid with a lot of import and US parts to keep them running.  My concern with a lot of the one-off weird 9mm guns is they don’t adhere to any standard.  I’ve kept a Colt-pattern 9mm SBR since that’s fairly standard but Extar, CMMG, etc, all do their own thing.

Gross.

The AP5/other MP5 clones are always the answer. Mounting lasers would be a little more tricky, and the manual of arms is obviously not quite as nice, but they just shoot so damn smooth and suppress phenomenally.

MEAN Arms is what you seek.

Slaps right onto your SBR lower. No need to change buffer, spring, trigger, etc. It is an exact 1:1 operation (minus FA) as an AR. Multiple lifters available to tune it to your ammo or recoil impulse.

Straight out of the box untuned


After some tuning. Ended building a dedicated AR9 lower for it.

If the goal is to run suppressed, might I suggest a .45 ACP model?  I'll think you'll get notably better performance subsonic power than 9mm will ever do, if that's an interest.  And while .45 ammo is more expensive, it's about the same on a per grain level  

I agree with the FP, that AR platform PCC"s aren't that great.  They tend to be blowback and upleasant.  Though CMMG's radial delayed .45ACP unit might be The Way, for you.

If you're dead set on 9mm, roller delay gets my nod.  There's lots of good that can be said about MP5 platform, but that's also pretty 1980's.  A more modern Stribog platform is also roller delayed, lighter, and just more modern with more useful features and aspects.  Just beware if you are a youtube research (which I don't recommend on pretty much anything), as most video reviews are of earlier models and magazines, which indeed had lots of problems.   And sure enough, the linked youtube video at the top of this thread, involves a first generation unit that's not even roller delayed, but a blowback SP9A1 Stribog.  Those work, but screw that; Stribogs are now on Gen 3.  I hate youtube - reviewer video's almost always suck; just like that one - because it's not running current equipment.


FWIW, they now make a 10mm version, which might actually be an interesting subsonic host, and is roller delayed as well.  I haven't played with that, so can't say much more than an interesting idea to run very heavy .40 cal bullets subsonic.

But if you've already decided you want MP5 hotness - then there you go; enjoy.  As much as I like PSA the company - no way would I touch a 9mm Blowback AR, now that you have much better options.  I ran one once, a really "good" 9mm AR; and what a POS, more jumpy recoil than a 5.56 and ammo-sensative like a bastard.  I'd never get a Blowback 9mm AR, personally.

Stribog 10mm is high on my want list

AP-5 is the best 9mm PCC I have ever fired!

That’s super cool!

But it’s not $1500 cool, to me at least. That’s about what I would need to spend on the AP5 to get it somewhat where I want it, and the “MP5” nostalgia  factor does count for something with me.

$800-900? It would be the easy answer.

If you’re suppressing it I would avoid anything direct blowback.  My Stribog seems twice as quite as my AR9

Don’t blame you. Cool factor is one of the most important aspects!

Good input thanks!

Maybe I have shoulder made of steel to handle the violent recoil via blowback of a, checks notes, 7 pound 9mm with a stock, but I've always really liked my Colt AR 9mm, and with it being SBR'ed it's a very handy rifle.  With a suppressor I find it to be very quiet, to the point that with 147 gr subs, I had to check the action to make sure it had fully cycled.

Always though the big funnel style mag well, bolt lock, and bolt control lever were pluses over the MP5 style that it was meant to be a competitor to.

I know it's a big step up for price, but if I was looking for a MP5 style, I'd bite the bullet and buy a HK version, probably the K for the coolness and smaller size.  Justify it to yourself by saying that it'll hold it's value so it's not really a purchase, but an investment in non-cash assets.

Yeah I might wait around until the MAC versions get released. MSRP of $1099, so I bet a street price of $1000 or so. Slightly cheaper than the AP5 and it comes with a second mag. It might be the way to go.

It's not about ouchies - it's about the muzzle movement between shots.   The thing better than a 124 gr hit of 1200 fps FU.  Is two of them RFN.  Roller delay keeps the muzzle on target so that next one can be on the way.   Blowback AR's are jumpy bastards.  Where is my red dot again?  Oh there it is.  Vs it never left - still on target, of the roller delay.

And today - you have the choice of a heavy iconic classic with great iron sights and meh- I'm sure shot 31 going *click* is totally fine.  That aimed and carefully squeezed shot wasn't important at all. (MP5)

Vs a lighter modern version that hosts modern attachments and locks back (Stribog) vs *CLICK*. (MP5)

I have a 8" AR9.
and a AP5 SBR.

The gentleman is looking for:

Supressed/subsonic 9mm goodness
Night shooting without pissing off the neighbors
Night pest eradication
Cheaper trainer
Most importantly, fun

So getting double taps into targets then transitioning into the next target isn't what he was looking for.  

With fun being the most important, the tactical aspects are less of an issue.

CMMG 5" barrel and bolt combo, aero XL upper, endomags, and either a shorty rail or tuck to your preference.
Are MP5s aesthetic and awesome? Yes. You can easily make the case for an mp5k PDW/bag gun. The AR platform has all the ergonomics, aftermarket support, and a suppressed rdb AR9 with endomags makes a fantastic trainer for taking classes, running drills, and competitive use for muscle memory that will transfer up to a rifle.

Attached File

Ptr MP5 comes with rails which will be easier to set up for your needs.

I shot my first 9mm AR about a year after i bought my turkish MP5 clones (early purchaser so paid a lot more than you are), and I thought it was great.

Im currently shopping for a Colt 9mm carbine.

But first you must have the MP5!

I’ve been very happy with my AP5, with a few minor changes.

I added a Navy lower with a BFS III trigger, a wide forearm, and when ATF required pistol braced pistols be registered as SBRs, I SBR’d it with an A2 stock.



I have a Silencerco Omega 45K suppressor on it with a tri lug adapter.  

Most recently I added a HK Parts mount for the Holosun 507C sight.  It doesn’t allow me to use a brass catcher, but it’s smaller, lighter, and low enough to co witness the sights.



——

I’ve put a couple thousand rounds through it and after some initial break in, it’s been 100% reliable with both MKE and HK magazines.  It shoots around 3 MOA at 100 yards with hand loaded plated bullets.

That’s sweet.

As much as I hate to admit it, the cool factor does count for something.

I think after doing the math, a CMMG banshee RDB 9mm upper with 9 ARC mags makes the most sense.

That’s probably gonna be around $1k to set up.

Compared to the MP5, which will be over 1k for just the gun, $200 tax stamp, ~$225 in rails/mounts, $200 stock. It’s gonna be north of $1600 all said and done, and then it’s still gonna have different ergos and doesn’t function well as a trainer.

CMMG upper and ARC mags are 100% plug and play. Just need to pop my aimpoint pro and TLR-VIR II on, zero and I’m in business. About 90% as smooth as an MP5 from what I can tell.

My wife quit her corporate job last year to be a mom, so the gun budget isn’t what it once was unfortunately, and as much as I want to drop $1600 on an MP5, it’s gonna have to wait this year unfortunately.

It’s also been trouble free. The full length MP5 doesn’t need a different locking piece to run suppressed, and the A2 stock doesn’t require a buffer, so no need to replace one on a regular basis.

——

I did have a PSA 9mm AR, and I guess I still have it, with most of its original parts on a shelf.  The barrel was crap and accuracy was poor, so the barrel got replaced with a Ballistic Advantage barrel. The trigger was replaced with a better trigger, and ot also ended up with a free floated hand guard, and a Rock River upper receiver as I never liked the PSA upper.  I also replaced the buffer assembly, but the bolt is still original.

The lower receiver itself is fine and the Colt pattern 9mm magazine adapter pinned into it works just as well as the 9mm dedicated lower I have on my other 9mm AR.

Between my Colt 6450, my 16” 9mm AR, my 8.3” 9mm AR, my Uzi and my AP-5, the MP5 gets the vast majority of the range time.

They are still a bit pricy.  Between the AP5, the stock, the Holosun sight, the mount, and the trigger and Navy lower (which have gotten pricey) it would cost around $2600 today. Having to SBR it now without being grandfathered as a braced pistol would add another $200.  The suppressor and 3 lug adapter was just over $800, plus the tax stamp.  So about $3600 to put it together today, not counting 5 more magazines, the pouches, the sight adjustment tool and the case. $800 less without the BFS trigger and Navy lower.

I’d go with the dissent for its fixed ejector.

Why is that?

Well I have both and I prefer the AR9. Mines has Colt mags but same applies to the Endomags. The AP5 feels taller, and the sights are in the way. AR9 can mount any and all optics. Triggers. AP5 triggers can not run with ARs, not even close. Lastly suppression. In an SBR, if you drop in an 8oz recoil buffer, it sounds just about the same.

I have an AP5, easily one of my favorite 9MMs to shoot.

I have an AP5 sbr with can, fun to shoot, no recoil, and quiet.  Plus Die Hard larpin!

I have to join the MP5 crowd. My SP5 is one of my favorite shooters!

Yeah I think I've settled on building a 9mm upper with a CMMG RDB BCG and barrel. I can do that for around $800. A MP5 clone set up similarly will be 2x that, and I still will have manual of arms disadvantages. The $800 I am saving should go toward ammo/components this year if I'm being honest with myself.

I do think the CMMG bolt/barrel is worth the $300 over a straight blowback.

I still want an MP5 at some point in the future, and I know the cost and availability of Turkish clones might change, but that's a risk I'm willing to take at the moment.

https://www.ar15.com/forums/Armory/Ultimate-Full-Auto-CMMG-RDB-Fixed-Ejector-Project/23-550593/

I had a SP5 and sold it. The idea of owning it was better than actually shooting it. Maybe I would have kept it if I went the SBR route.

Also had an AP5 that I never even shot & sold it lol

I now have an AR9 that I built starting with an Aero barreled upper. No regrets + a lot cheaper than a SP5. Bonus is the AR9 takes Glock mags.
It runs with a can great.

I would not mind owning a SP5K or AP5-P, but only if a great deal came along & then I would have to SBR it

9mm RDB

Blowback is gross

Roller delay is $

My MP5 (clone) is the only gun I own and don't shoot often. Yet, it's just about the last gun I'd give up.

If you think you want an MP5 I can virtually guarantee you'll end up with one.

You would have kept the SP5 had it been an sbr.

My first AR-15 9mm upper & VM-Hytech UZI mag block cost me $350 to put together.  I put it on my SBR AR lower and can switch uppers in seconds.  My second full build was $500 for a full build with a brace, it uses a QC-10 Glock mag lower.  Then I picked up a Stribog A1 for $450 when the braces were 'banned'.  So I got an upper and 2x complete guns for nearly the same cost as an AP5.  

With that said, the AP5 is on my short list and will be one of the next guns I splurge on.  I get big commission checks (about 4-5x a year), so I buy myself something nice when I get one.  Like everyone who grew up in the 1980's, the MP5 was one of the big hitters (AR, AK, UZI, MP-5, Mac-10, Mini-14).  I had a Todd Bailey MP5K that was traded to me unfired and sold it unfired as it had a bad reputation.  I knew if I fired it and it didn't run, I couldn't in good conscious, stick somebody with it.  I just came off of a bad Springfield Armory SAR-8 .308 experience (cast aluminum receiver version, not the Portuguese version).  It wouldn't run right and Springfield replaced it with an M1A, which I sold to fund a cross country motorcycle trip (well worth the trade).

Look into an apc9 yet?

https://bt-usa.com/product-category/apc9-pro/

Some advice from someone else who has always loved the MP5 since I was a kid, no other PCC is going to truly fill that role for you. I bought and sold several high end PCC's that are great in their own right, but one day I just cut the BS and started saving for an MP5. I don't regret it, in fact I will be getting the PDW version very soon as well.

If you want an MP5, save up and get the MP5.

SBR papers on my SP5 took 18 days. lol.

PSA AR-V

Attached File


Got the upper together, went with a 8” RDB barrel and bolt kit from CMMG, Aero XL upper, and a BKing firearms rail. Threw on an aimpoint PRO, my Octane 45 HD and TLR-VIRII.

Tested it on my SBR lower with endo mags. One FTE hiccup on the second shot, but ran fine after that. I was using the medium weight from the CMMG tuning kit and an H3 buffer, so I might have to mess with either the light weight or no weight in the BCG.

Only disappointment was the fact my 147gr handloads must have been near supersonic out of the 8” barrel in the 40F weather. I was getting a pretty good “crack.”

I’ll have to mess with my loads a bit to make it reliably subsonic.

Overall I was pleased, pretty smooth shooting. Not MP5 smooth but no slouch. I think the fact manual of arms is the same as an AR makes up for it.

MP5 is still on the list, but for less than half the cost I’m satisfied with my decision.

Well my XL 750 was all set up to load 9mm. Dropped the charge from 4.7 gr of BE-86 to 4.2 gr, swapped the BCG weight to the light weight one. Went out on the porch and dumped a few rounds… Nailgun quiet SBR achievement unlocked.

This isn’t going to be a popular take but in 2024 the MP5 isn’t a great choice. I love the MP5, I was issued one and carried it every chance I got. It is an accurate and smooth shooting gun. However, it is a heavy for what it is due to its construction, with an antiquated manual of arms, no last round bolt hold open, a tight magazine well and a clumsy optics mounting arrangement. If I am going to sacrifice ballistically, I want to benefit in other areas. Size and weight being paramount. There are better options out there, the B&T APC9K which is what the Army just selected. https://www.recoilweb.com/bt-u-s-army-scw-limited-commemorative-edition-apc9k-163735.html
Another option would be the MPX which shares the same manual of arms as the M4. These two represent better options in my opinion. They are smaller, lighter, with a better manual of arms, are set up out of the box for optics and lights. They are faster to operate and reload. In the case of the MPX if you are already familiar with the M4 there isn’t really anything new to learn.

I actually agree with you.

Though not on the APC9K choice.  Army bought like 200 units total, that's it.  

I think the APC9K is a decent gun to be sure, of course.  Actually, it's a great gun.  But personally I find its price-point a bit excessive for the mission statement of basically an SMG.  I still think the current (CURRENT) Stribog SP9A3 with curved mags, as the best bang for your buck and best general purpose choice for this mission.  I value the roller-delay, which keeps the action locked a bit longer, for a cleaner operation.  I also suspect that roller-delay lock gives a higher forgiveness and pressure rating of the gun - though haven't actually tested that.

Obviously opinions vary.  But I will say the APC9K threads are not all sunshine - though of course Stribog's problem-threads are legendary and GrandPower basically used the customers on their beta-test program of SP9A1, straight mags, SP9A2(if they called it that? it was their next-gent blowback), steel-lip straight mags, SP9A3 (gen 1 <4000 SN), 40 degree block, 45 degree block, and finally SP9A3 with curved mags >4000SN and the 45degree block (which is still wrong, get and replace that with the older 40 degree block).  If someone reads all that and says "are you fucking kidding me?", they aren't wrong - that's a total mess.  but if you're willing to get past that, and get the last one - it's actually a remarkably great gun.  And to-date, not a single youtube "influencer" has actually run that. The last "influence" ran one a month or so ago with the straight mags, and had problems.  Yea, we know, that's why Grand Power redid the feed lips and curved the mags.

That, and I don't care for B&T's APC9K collapsible stock/brace system.  The rails just are never going to be as comfortable as a side folder.  And leave it to the Swiss to put the notches on the TOP of the rails, where face engages.   Side folders may not look as cool, but they deploy fast and are a better shooting experience (in my opinion).

So between the exaggerated price, the tiny number of units Army actually bought, the fact it's still a blow-back (that's another pretty big x-mark for me - still 1940's Grease Gun tech gun; but with a clever impact spring to dampen recoil), and the imperfect user experience postings I've been seeing, and random details like the stock system with notches on the top - I personally don't recommend investing in an APC9K over a Stribog today.  Also, being blowback, APC9 weights a lot more than it has to, to host the heavy bolt that blow-backs require.  The concerns of the MP5 being overweight, kind of apply to the APC9k as well, IMHO.

Also, I personally consider the PCC a SMG class gun, which is partly why I don't like AR based PCC's, because to me that's just a rifle, in 9mm.  I don't want a rifle in 9mm, I want an SMG configuration gun, in 9mm.   And most of the AR guns still run the buffer tube, which adds length even when collapsed.  

But I do agree that the MP5, as epically bad-ass as it is, isn't a great choice today.  If someone wants it because they want a bad-ass classic, that's absolutely what they should get.  But if they want a really great effective modern 9mm PCC (SMG configuration), I personally don't start with the MP5.  To me, Stribog is the one to actually get.  

I do hear rumor that Scorpion might come out with a roller-delay. That will be cool if they do.  Until then, blowbacks are not an acceptable technology choice.  And in the end, APC9 is yet another heavy blowback - though better done than most.  Stribog is a lighter gun, with milder recoil impulse, pleasant to run, and half the price.  So to OP's poll: My vote is neither - both of those are out of date and lesser experiences than other options.