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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/9/2024 9:56:40 AM EDT
I want a different powder from varget, at the same time I dont want to waste money on something that wont group worth beans.
I mainly use 168 smk and or 175, r700 police rifle. Im interested in N-140,N-150,and Win Staball Match. Have yall used the above powders? |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 4/9/2024 10:21:49 AM EDT
[#1]
N140 and I am very impressed
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Posted: 4/9/2024 10:56:35 AM EDT
[#2]
I'm using 41.5 grains of N150 in Lake City 7.62x51mm brass, 168 grain SMK's sated @ 2.800" for use in my semi-autos. I haven't chronographed this load yet, but 1 moa has been typical at 200 yards.
N140 is every bit as good in .223 as Varget, RE-15 or IMR-8202-XBR with midweight to heavy bullets. |
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Posted: 4/9/2024 11:09:17 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By borderpatrol: N140 is every bit as good in .223 as Varget, RE-15 or IMR-8202-XBR with midweight to heavy bullets. borderpatrol gets it. N140 is a very versatile powder and I get good results in 5.6x50R (equals roughly a hot .222 or light .223 Rem), .243 Win, 308 Win and 7.62x53R. It burns fairly cleanly and is not very sensitive to temperature fluctuations. The only downside is the price, but is a hobby even a real hobby if it does not take all your money? |
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USA
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Posted: 4/9/2024 12:41:25 PM EDT
[#4]
What is the problem with VARGET that you want to change?
It is readily available. It costs the same as the Staball and VV powders. If you want to avoid "wasting" components and time developing a new load, stick with what you've got. |
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Posted: 4/9/2024 12:45:21 PM EDT
[#5]
I've started playing with StaBall Match recently as my LGS had a few pounds and nothing else.
Got to admit so far I like it. I've used it in .308, .224V and 6.5 Grendel. It shows promise in all of them along with consistent single digit SDs. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/9/2024 2:46:15 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Trollslayer: What is the problem with VARGET that you want to change? It is readily available. It costs the same as the Staball and VV powders. If you want to avoid "wasting" components and time developing a new load, stick with what you've got. Price, Its 20 more than n140. As an example. Also, I want a backup powder in case its not available. |
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Posted: 4/9/2024 3:14:40 PM EDT
[#7]
I use BL-C(2) because of availability. I still have a good amount. Shoots tight enough for me.
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OH, USA
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Posted: 4/9/2024 3:49:16 PM EDT
[#8]
4064 is supposed to be a good varget substitute
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USA
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Posted: 4/9/2024 4:30:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Trollslayer]
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By country_boy87: Price, Its 20 more than n140. As an example. Also, I want a backup powder in case its not available. Before I posted, I ran AmmoSeek, as I thought that was the reason. I found it was within $5-$10/pound of Varget. I'll run it again. These are the prices I found for 1 pound cannisters. Varget - $47 N140 - $45 StaBall Match - $43 IMR4064 has been unobtainium for a while. AA4064 is readily available for $50/pound. TAC has been readily and uniterruptedly available at good prices ($40/lb) for a long time, if that works for you as a back up. Just trying to help, in case you don't know about AmmoSeek. |
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USA
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Posted: 4/9/2024 7:30:09 PM EDT
[#10]
Am using 8208 with success shooting 168 Amax. Shooting out of a 20 inch, 16 inch, and 12.5 inch barrels.
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Posted: 4/9/2024 9:29:48 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bearcat24: Am using 8208 with success shooting 168 Amax. Shooting out of a 20 inch, 16 inch, and 12.5 inch barrels. Terrible suggestion as 8208 is never available. Great powder though, I love it. OP… try one of these: Staball Match N140 & N540 Shooters World Precision TAC Accurate 2520 |
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Posted: 4/10/2024 3:56:05 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Millennial: 4064 is supposed to be a good varget substitute The price and availability of IMR Powders will make you rethink Varget |
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Posted: 4/10/2024 7:52:01 PM EDT
[#13]
I have had good luck with CFE223 with 147 gr bullets. And it it's awesome for, wait for it, 223.
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OH, USA
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Posted: 4/14/2024 9:26:53 PM EDT
[#14]
Win 748 has really worked well for me in a variety of bullet weights.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/15/2024 7:54:24 AM EDT
[#15]
The latest data i have from Sierra shows TAC in the top two
N140 have always heard good things about. Im glad i laid in imr 4064 when i did or i would be in the same boat it has been unobtainable for a while. |
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Posted: 4/15/2024 8:00:28 AM EDT
[#16]
My shooting buddy swears by TAC for 308. It can be readily found and is dirt cheap compared to Varget.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/16/2024 8:46:15 AM EDT
[#17]
Ill try for some tac, thanks everybody.
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Posted: 4/17/2024 10:47:46 AM EDT
[#18]
I have had good luck with IMR 4895, using both 168 & 175 gr BTHP bullets.
I know it wasn’t one you listed, but it does work well. |
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Posted: 4/17/2024 11:16:53 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Trollslayer: What is the problem with VARGET that you want to change? It is readily available. It costs the same as the Staball and VV powders. If you want to avoid "wasting" components and time developing a new load, stick with what you've got. Even with the price bump coming in June VV will be cheaper that any Alliant - Hodgdon - IMR Stick Powder Varget locally runs 55$ # N140 locally runs 42$ # StaBall Match locally runs 45$ # TAC locally runs 35$ # I love varget in the 308. Are there some other powders that shoot certain bullets better yes. |
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LA, USA
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Posted: 4/17/2024 11:17:51 AM EDT
[#20]
I have always had better luck with RL15 than Varget. Current prices are painful.
Tac and N140 are nice options with 168/175 Smk. |
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USA
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Posted: 4/17/2024 3:15:41 PM EDT
[#21]
Usually on the shelf were I’m at.
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Posted: 4/17/2024 6:49:36 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Trollslayer: Before I posted, I ran AmmoSeek, as I thought that was the reason. I found it was within $5-$10/pound of Varget. I'll run it again. These are the prices I found for 1 pound cannisters. Varget - $47 N140 - $45 StaBall Match - $43 IMR4064 has been unobtainium for a while. AA4064 is readily available for $50/pound. TAC has been readily and uniterruptedly available at good prices ($40/lb) for a long time, if that works for you as a back up. Just trying to help, in case you don't know about AmmoSeek. I never buy 1 pound canisters. I will buy 4 pound canisters of pistol powders, 8 pounds is always cheaper per pound. I would go through a single pound of rifle powder in a month. |
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Posted: 4/17/2024 8:08:52 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bearcat24: Usually on the shelf were I’m at. XBR? Where you at, I might be up for a road trip! LOL |
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Posted: 4/17/2024 8:23:53 PM EDT
[#24]
2520?
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Posted: 4/21/2024 10:01:30 AM EDT
[#25]
Try some IMR 3031.
It almost seems to be a forgotten power any more, but I get my best accuracy with it and a 168 SMK in 308. It has beat every other powder I have tried. Same results with 175 SMK. AR-comp is almost identical group sizes to 3031, but ARcomp is stupid expensive now and hard to find. |
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Posted: 4/21/2024 10:27:54 AM EDT
[#26]
VihtaVuori N150 for the win!
I'm using 41.5 grains in Lake City Brass and 168 grain SMK's in my AR-10's and M1-A's. |
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Posted: 4/21/2024 10:29:19 AM EDT
[#27]
VihtaVuori N140 works great in .308 and heavy bullet .223's. In that regard, it's a one and done powder.
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USA
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Posted: 4/21/2024 10:32:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: SteelonSteel]
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Trollslayer: Before I posted, I ran AmmoSeek, as I thought that was the reason. I found it was within $5-$10/pound of Varget. I'll run it again. These are the prices I found for 1 pound cannisters. Varget - $47. $390/8# N140 - $45. $294/8# StaBall Match - $43. $348/8# IMR4064 has been unobtainium for a while. AA4064 is readily available for $50/pound. TAC has been readily and uniterruptedly available at good prices ($40/lb) for a long time, if that works for you as a back up. Just trying to help, in case you don't know about AmmoSeek. Volume size in blue Edit I just picked up N140 for similar usage. I am about out of Varget, Low on RL15, down to my last pound of H4895 but still have most of an 8# IMR4895, same on IMR4064. I had decided to cycle away from RL15 despite my Match AR loads and custom .308 loads that were stellar. I was thinking the same on Varget as I hadn’t bought any in years. I was plugging along on my stocks of RL15 and H4895. it’s good to have options though! I also bought N160 as a H4350 replacement. |
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SD, USA
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Posted: 4/30/2024 11:13:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: fgshoot]
[#29]
If there's anything I've learned in the last few years, it's that there is no way to possibly predict price or availability of powder or primers. I started relolading about 20 years ago, just before the obama shortages, and those were real shortages. As bad as it seems today, you flat out did not see powders and primers. I remember going into stores, and there would be like 3 pounds of powder on the shelf, and it would be what nobody wanted like 800x or something. I happened to love 800x, so not even that lasted long. It was like that for years. Lead shot prices doubled, but the powder and primers, besides a few hopefuls on gunbroker, the prices didn't go up that much. Most importantly, Varget was gone, and I mean gone gone, for what seemed like 5 years. It was the most sought after, and least available powder there was. Finally in that 2017-2018 range things started to get good again. Well that was a good 2-3 years anyway.
The problems we face today are nothing like they were last time. Things are available, and they have been. Even at the worst of it like 2021-2022, I could go to the local store and there would at least be some kind of usable powder and primers. The problem is the prices have gone bananas. And now in 2024 the prices are getting to levels I never would have dreamed of. You really have to be careful too because a lot of times you don't save anything buying jugs of powder anymore. One of the stores near me quoted me $480 for a jug of IMR 3031! It cost MORE by the jug than to buy it by the pound! I'm not seeing much savings to be had. It used to be you could save 20% to 30% buying a jug. I'm not seeing too many examples of saving even 10% anymore, most like a couple bucks less a pound, big whoop. There's lost more cases of pounders available right now than jugs. |
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SD, USA
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Posted: 4/30/2024 11:13:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: fgshoot]
[#30]
Anyway, that's enough complaining. The point being just because Varget is available at this exact moment, for a comparable price, does not mean it will be next year. Don't forget Varget has been in shortage probably more than any other powder in recent times. Same thing for Vhitavouri which for most of it's existance has been the most expensive powder there was, and nows it's one of the cheapest. It's a very good idea to have multiple powders on hand that work good. There's good options out there. Older powders like 4064 work as good as they ever did, but it's not really a Varget replacement in terms of temperature stability. It really depends on why you chose a powder in the first place. Vhitavouri N140 is probably the closest replacement for Varget there is. It's not quite as temp stable (still better than 4064), but it also meters better than Varget. I have never tried it, but the new RE 15.5 should be pretty close to Varget in performance.
Staball Match is different than Varget, but it looks like a really promising option for ball powder in 308. Ramshot TAC is nothing like Varget or Staball Match. I've never used Staball, but I have used TAC. It's not bad, it goes bang. I can't think of anything it does to choose it over any other ball powder such as W 748 which has decades upon decades of load data. Alliant has 2000-MR which produces downright impressive velocities if that is what you are after. CFE223 has some kind of special de-copper agent. TAC is just another ball powder with nothing really special about it. If you are just after accuracy, then you can also consider IMR 8208 and AR Comp. It seems to me any time Varget is gone, 8208 is around and vice versa. It was around in that 2010-2015 area when Varget was a fart in the wind. |
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CO, USA
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Posted: 5/1/2024 10:10:40 AM EDT
[#31]
Not trying to be a smart guy but I like to replace Varget with Varget. There’s really nothing like it, IMO. The only gripe I have is that you can’t run it in a progressive. Price has always been high, but it’s worth it.
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Posted: 5/1/2024 1:01:35 PM EDT
[#32]
Extruded powders will mostly be a PITA for use on progressive press.
TAC measures like water and does a decent job in the 308 for sure. Primers do affect accuracy. Back in time 39 gr of IMR3031 with Fed 210M primer in Federal brass topped with Sierra 168 MKHP was the gold standard of accuracy. From an economic standpoint IMR powders are crazy expensive and supply is erratic more so than Hodgdon Varget. |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 1:04:38 PM EDT
[#33]
I have real good luck with RL15 and 175s but it's not the easiest to find, can be expensive, and may suffer from temp variability
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Posted: 5/1/2024 3:14:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: dryflash3]
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By stevelish: Not trying to be a smart guy but I like to replace Varget with Varget. There's really nothing like it, IMO. The only gripe I have is that you can't run it in a progressive. Price has always been high, but it's worth it. I don't even us it, just bought it because reasons. eta, normally it is $50 to 80 when I see it. 8 pounders $500. 
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Posted: 5/1/2024 3:54:06 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fgshoot: It seems to me any time Varget is gone, 8208 is around... Varget has been around for a while. 8208, that has been unobtanium forever! |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 4:01:24 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dryflash3: 8 pounders $500. You can get all you want for $400 on ShootingBot. Still a ripoff IMO. Only powder I have seen for $500 is AR-COMP from Alliant. |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 4:38:20 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SteelonSteel: Volume size in blue Edit I just picked up N140 for similar usage. I am about out of Varget, Low on RL15, down to my last pound of H4895 but still have most of an 8# IMR4895, same on IMR4064. I had decided to cycle away from RL15 despite my Match AR loads and custom .308 loads that were stellar. I was thinking the same on Varget as I hadn’t bought any in years. I was plugging along on my stocks of RL15 and H4895. it’s good to have options though! I also bought N160 as a H4350 replacement. Might try Norma203b as a replacement for R15. I picked up several pounds of N203b, but haven’t had a chance to compare them yet. |
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SD, USA
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Posted: 5/1/2024 5:54:13 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bpm990d: Varget has been around for a while. 8208, that has been unobtanium forever! Maybe it was different where you were, but 8208 has been one of the most available powders around here. It was one guys went to 10 years ago when Varget has been gone for years. 8208 has only recently been unavailable, I bought some about 9 months ago, it was all over. |
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SD, USA
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Posted: 5/1/2024 5:56:07 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bpm990d: You can get all you want for $400 on ShootingBot. Still a ripoff IMO. Only powder I have seen for $500 is AR-COMP from Alliant. Unfortunately I've seen a shocking number of jugs approaching $500. IMR 3031 IS $480. There might be some a little cheaper online, but after shipping and hazmat they always turn out to be more than I pay in the local store. |
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SD, USA
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Posted: 5/1/2024 7:35:27 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By rn22723: Extruded powders will mostly be a PITA for use on progressive press. TAC measures like water and does a decent job in the 308 for sure. Primers do affect accuracy. Back in time 39 gr of IMR3031 with Fed 210M primer in Federal brass topped with Sierra 168 MKHP was the gold standard of accuracy. From an economic standpoint IMR powders are crazy expensive and supply is erratic more so than Hodgdon Varget. This is an interesting subject I've been been thinking about most of my life. It's true ball powders meter really consistent as far as weight. Even the smaller cut extruded powders like H4831SC, or AR Comp still vary about twice what a ball powder like TAC will. One of my all time favorites, IMR 3031, is about as bad as it gets, and it meters ballpark plus or minus .3 grains, but it has the occasional drop even outside that. And yet despite that I have never seen Accurate 2200 (the closest ball powder I have), even scale weighed to the tenth, outshoot measure dropped 3031. So it measure worse, but still shoots better. |
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Posted: 5/9/2024 2:34:20 PM EDT
[#41]
I load .308 for that same rifle, OP.
My go-to has always been IMR 4895. A 168 SMK and 43.0 grains stack nicely on paper. Years back I decided to try some 748 since it meters like water through the old Lyman 55 compared to the 4895. Shot very well through my rifle! I settled on 44.3 grains of 748 with the 168 SMK. Now I’m saving all my 4895 for the M1A and M1. |
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Posted: 5/9/2024 3:16:46 PM EDT
[#42]
I would just buy a bunch of 8# containers of Varget. Powder prices are never going down. If you’ve decided Varget is THE powder for donating your shoot a lot, stack it deep.
Best case scenario is it’s available regularly any ever higher prices. Worst case is it becomes unobtanium. |
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OR, USA
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Posted: 5/9/2024 3:38:09 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dan1918A2: I load .308 for that same rifle, OP. My go-to has always been IMR 4895. A 168 SMK and 43.0 grains stack nicely on paper. Years back I decided to try some 748 since it meters like water through the old Lyman 55 compared to the 4895. Shot very well through my rifle! I settled on 44.3 grains of 748 with the 168 SMK. Now I’m saving all my 4895 for the M1A and M1. IMR 4895 has been the best for me through a couple different semi auto 308s. The price increase and availability have sent me looking for other alternatives too. VV powders use to be too expensive for me to pay much attention to but now they are some of the cheapest and most available. I’ve gone to N555 for 6.5 Creedmoor and that has me considering doing the same for precision 308 loads too. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/11/2024 12:03:23 AM EDT
[#44]
This thread has me thinking i have to load some tac up in 308 and test this summer.
I cant imagine it being better than imr 4064. I’ve only used tac in 223 never saw spectacular results others say they get. It was fast and decent not tiny groups. |
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AR, USA
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Posted: 5/11/2024 12:52:21 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By wildearp: I use BL-C(2) because of availability. I still have a good amount. Shoots tight enough for me. Same here. Use it for all of my .308, 30-06, 6.5 Grendel, and .223 loads with bullets heavier than 55 gr. |
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Posted: 5/11/2024 1:15:16 AM EDT
[#46]
My choice would be Varget or R-15, but at this point beggars can’t be choosers. Get what you can while you can because it’s all drying up. It all requires nitrocellulose, which comes from China, and China has basically cut off the global supply. From Powder Valley’s Facebook page yesterday:
 Attached File |
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Posted: 5/11/2024 7:51:25 AM EDT
[#47]
For the last year, Alliant powders have been priced like they didn’t want to make it anymore. Due to the crazy pricing, it could not have been selling well.
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Posted: 5/11/2024 8:34:23 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By wildearp: I use BL-C(2) because of availability. I still have a good amount. Shoots tight enough for me. This... |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 5/11/2024 9:16:33 AM EDT
[#49]
N140 is likely your best option of those three. N150 can be good in long barrels.
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USA
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Posted: 5/11/2024 9:36:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: SteelonSteel]
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ZA206: For the last year, Alliant powders have been priced like they didn’t want to make it anymore. Due to the crazy pricing, it could not have been selling well. Yea, I didn’t get it. Alliant other than a handful of powders has never been THE brand to buy by anyone I know. They were economy shotgun powders in the day...like red dot, blue dot and green dot. A few were excellent for cast bullets like Unique and 2400. I like BE86 and RL15 and RL22 is a. etc easy .300 win mag accuracy powder in my experience. They have stepped up the modernization like in RL16 and TS 15.5. They can make a good powder. I don’t see why they expect a premium price above and beyond. Perhaps the pricing is not high because branding and loyalty but less efficient economy of scale to get their product produced and marketed. Now Hodgdon has been the ones for years nudging their prices ahead of IMR and going for branding. They had some awesome updated powders so I get the move. Then they bought out all the competition. I have been saying that will cost us the reloaders dearly down the road, wars or no wars. The wars just give a good reason to raise prices. I get a gut feeling they likely won’t shrink prices much when the wars subside whenever they do. As a complete aside, it’s sad we no longer can produce the nitrocellulose needed right here. We used to quite well. Sadly on arfcom we had interesting threads where “urban explorers” trespassed on are old federal powder handling sites. It was a cool thread but there were acres and acres of remote lines for powder handling on this one site. All being slowly scrapped while the still waiting buildings rotted in wait. I want to say the story was the government shut the places down in the eighties and went totally commercial. |
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