Currently most of my gear is multicam. I went with it because it is widely available and works in a variety of environments. Maybe I'm overthinking it, but I've been giving some thought to changing at least some of my gear out for two reasons.

One: because multicam is used by a lot of government and military units, especially federal units. Depending on the situation that the use of the gear might be necessary, I don't want to look like a member of any government entity.

Two: While not as much of a concern, my area has a lot of green during the summer, and even through the fall and winter months depending. It can also vary a lot, and there are plenty of brown and tans too.


I've been thinking about switching to woodland. I already have some stuff in woodland. I also think its probably not the most effective, but its the next most common after multicam (and MC variations like tropic). Trying to find things like PC's and accessories in other patterns like ATACS is slim.

I'm not looking for any specific answers. Just a discussion on pattern options.

IMO, camouflage clothing is just dependent on your environment and what you think works best.  Personally, I have never been a fan of multicam.  I don't think there really is a one size fits all camo pattern like multicam is meant to be. I do like mixing camos, i.e. greener top and lighter pants.

As far as gear, the Marines are doing it right as far as equipment I think.  Well kind of.  I get there reason for choosing coyote brown, but I go with ranger green.  A solid color gear will go well with your camo du jour. At least the Marines were smart enough to stick with a separate woodland and desert pattern uniform.

Civilian clothing is best camouflage for most urban and semi-urban areas.


My Unit provide an operational funding to purchase civi  clothing specifically for operating within Iraqi and Afghan cities.

Anytime, you see someone wearing a camouflage clothing inside the United States, it immediately draws attention to that person, thus defeating the purpose.


Just my thoughts and using, your mileage may vary. 18 Z 50.

Around here, Multicam Tropic is best during spring and summer. Standard Multicam would work for late fall through the start of spring. We hardly ever get snow so the Alpine would have no use, here. The arid MIGHT be a better choice, though, for fall and winter as the tones are more subdued and there's no white in it.

I currently have hats in Multicam, Multicam Tropic, and Multicam Black. I wear the Tropic version every day. My standard MC hat hangs on the hook with my war belt. And my MC Black hat stays in my truck with my GHB (it's black). Yes, it looks a little military, but that's OK. The hat doesn't really stand out and I've only ever had 1 or 2 comments on it; and 1 was for the patch on it (DTOM patch). The people I work with just call it a camo hat. I highly doubt any of them actually know the pattern or name of the camo.

I also have a military surplus poncho in Woodland. I wasn't really looking for that particular camo pattern, but I found the poncho at the local Army/Navy surplus store, and it wasn't expensive so I bought it. Also, it was the only one they had. I also bought a matching woobie to go with it.

Multicam
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Multicam Black
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Multicam Tropic
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Multicam Arid
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Multicam Alpine
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And I'd also agree with this. For me, camo is nothing more than a style choice. It serves no tactical or actual purpose other than I like the way it looks. Sure it can be used for hunting, but I'd much rather use something like Mossy Oak or Realtree camo for that. Also, wearing either of those styles of camo around here would help you blend in. Lots of guys wear those styles around here so you'd just look like another guy wearing hunting camo.

Camouflage Is a subject in which many people have vastly different opinions. As 18B30 correctly said there's more to It than Just colors and patterns printed on clothes.

When you write
"One: because multicam is used by a lot of government and military units, especially federal units. Depending on the situation that the use of the gear might be necessary, I don't want to look like a member of any government entity."
what Is the possibile scenario you envision? Another Citizen looking at you and saying "he Is definitely not a police/swat/army person due to his choice of camo"? Would the person have enough time, good sight and knowledge to know that?

On the more mundane part of the question in my experience some pattern that disrupts your shape with colors similar to the environment would do 90%of the work. If i had to choose i would choose a pattern over a solid color (which i ready was the USMC complaint over solid color coyote webgear).
Where i live, central Italy Hills,  i saw that a Brown based camouflage works all year round Better than a green based one. Had great success with patterns with stripes like desert dpm and desert Tiger stripes, less with the US desert like patterns that have rounder shapes. I love the pencott family of patterns, Green zone Is a very usable pattern for less dry places where there's lot of Lush green and
Badlands Is another Brown based all around One.

Also if you want to reequip yourself in a different pattern evaluate if masking from night vision or even thermal Is a thing for you and buy accordingly.

In the PNW anything greenish, brown and black work.  

     In any environment if all you are wearing is your camo to match your surroundings and just carrying a gun that is one thing.  If you have belts, web gear, backpack and other shit whatever on top of that, unless they are the same camo or any camo at all, then whatever "base" camo you are wearing under all that stuff doesn't really matter to a point.

Yeah, this is definitely the case 99% of the time and in 99% of scenarios. Day to day I wear slim fit jeans and Vans, and random T-shirts so I don't look like the guy with the gun. And I already have a lot of outdoors type of gear that is either solid colors or hunting clothes in real tree or mossy oak type patterns.

I'm more specifically talking about things like chest rigs and plate carriers, and some kind of scenario where things have really gone sideways. Like Ukraine, Israel, civil unrest due to riots/Covid, or Red Dawn, etc. I know were talking about preparing for things that have the smallest possibility of happening. But preparing for that makes you prepared for all the lesser emergencies too.



I actually have a Ranger Green plate carrier thats very basic and slick, but only one set of plates. It would work well in a more low profile role (like above). I think right now I'm leaning towards swapping a few things on my Multicam JPC to a different pattern and seeing how it works out, but Ranger Green as a base color would be good.

I agree with not wanting to be wearing FedCam or anything really similar  (British MTP, etc.)

Keep your multicam stuff though.

Buy some Woodland tops.  Wear them with the multicam or solid earth tones bottoms.

Buy solid earthtone bottoms from here on out.  

I am a big fan of the idea that the camo piece covering the top half of your body is the most important when it comes to IFF stuff.  And mix and match camo isn't bad usually.  Multicam makes a good bottom camo color - brownish leaves and grass and such.  Green centric camo top to match the leaves and such.

Multicam and Woodland are going to be the easiest colors to find gear and especially clothing in right now.  BDU tops and bottoms are cheap in woodland.  Additionally, woodland is kinda the defacto  USA Civilian Uniform Camo.  

I don't even care about mix and matching gear with the camos either.  Multicam Tropic, ATACS FG / FGX / IX, Kryptek Mandrake, Pencott Greenzone, Flecktarn, Danish Flecktarn, British DPM, Swedish M90 or whatever the camo designation is, and the half dozen variations on woodland camo - French CCE, Dutch Woodland, etc. are all generally - not perfect obviously, depending on the combo - but generally all work together as a mix and match combo.  ie, you can throw a chest rig / plate carrier / belt kit of one of the camos on top of a top of one of the other camos, and they will work generally well in the woods together.  Better than a solid color would.  All the above are decent in the woods in the USA.  Some better in some places than others.  IE, Flecktarn is a touch too dark in most places.  But it still works fine.  

Other than wanting to make sure we at least try to not mess up with IFF issues, I think we as civilians overthink the camo issue.  You might have your gucci custom matching crye camo setup, but clothing is a disposable commodity, you will blow through multiple pairs of pants very quickly.  And others around you won't have the same stuff.  Odds are as a civilian in the USA, most guys will have one of 3 different camos - Woodland, some form of Mossy Oak stuff, or Multicam.  Probably 80-90% of civilians will end up having one of those 3 things.  Woodland is hot again.  I'd jump on that band wagon, even if I prefer some of the ATACS or Mandrake better - and I think that Pencott Greenzone is the best of the green camos right now in sheer actual usability.  

If everyone showed up with an oversized (for layering) Woodland BDU top - which you can get for $30-35 still - and whatever pants they had, that would be incredibly good.  But they won't, everyone will have custom camos.  And we will have to deal with it.

KUIU Verde is pretty awesome during the day.

Mix and Match pouches in different solid colors on your Molle Carrier for a Camo effect without using Camo.

My thoughts on camo patterns.  Most anything, and I mean any earth-tone colors, be it a pattern or solid color, will morph into a solid blob beyond a certain distance.  Call it 100m or so.  Then it is a silhouette you see, or movement, or even noise.  AKA, target indicators.  It is "only" that last 100m or so that a camo pattern comes into play.  And when they're that close, in deep bush let's say, you notice faces, hands, and black liqourice sticks if not similarly camo'd.  Camo patterns are largely irrelevant if you have not camo'd your face, hands, rifle, and any or all shiny surfaces; and silenced noisy things.  Not to mention good movement technique.  

Camo today is largely an IFF concern, vs any real camo effect, IMHO.  Any good earth tone green top, and brown trou, combined with similar camo on face/hands/weapons & equipment is just as effective, 95% of the time.  If you go to any camo pattern, you might as well go to 3-D camo, and even thermal/IR considerations, since we seem to be confined to basic visual observation here.  And again any good earth tone, that doesn't glint under NIR or thermal is better than a fancy camo pattern that does.  

I have crossed-trained with Brits in DPM when I was in woodland, and it came down to basic field craft, not camo.  Even though the DPM held it's pattern much better under NIR than woodland. If you act like "Prince Rupert", as the Brits say, you will be seen (or heard).  

All that being said, most of my kit is in MTP, simply because it's very cost-effective, and it works.  If I will work.

I've recently come to the same conclusion.  I was an early investor in MultiCam, buying my first set shortly after it became commercially available in 2007.  I've religiously stuck with it since.  Unfortunately, it has now become so ubiquitous that we could find ourselves needing massive amounts of duck tape for IFF purposes along the lines of Ukraine.  At that point, what's the point of wearing camo in the first place?  

The solution I've gone with, at least for the moment is two fold.  One, solid color gear.  I went with Coyote Brown because it is a great year round color for me in KS, and it matches most camo or civilian clothing I see as viable.  Two, for camo, I'm in the process of switching over to Rhodesian Brushstroke.  In my area, it works pretty good year round, and is distinct enough from MultiCam that it's hard to mix up the two.  It's still a niche pattern, but becoming more available in recent years thanks to Fire Force Ventures, What Price Glory, and Helikon Tex.

We did some field testing on this about 15 years ago, summer time in the Northeast Appalachians.  Rocky ground with exposed dark gray boulders with some light green algae growing on them..
First up.was ACU.  It actually highlighted the wearer in the shade..  then he stepped into sunlight and damn near disappeared.  Odd..
Next up was night desert.  It worked somewhat well in the shade and was obvious in sunlight.  No.surprise there..
M81 Woodland was next up.  Worked as expected, a bit dark but good.  This would work better in evergreens than in deciduous woods.  Definitely usable in that AO.  
The top two patterns were MC digital woodland and multi cam.  Walking toward our guys on the ground, they blended in so well that our point man walked right past them at less than two meters.  I stopped so close to my kid in marpat that I very nearly stepped on him!  Two clear winners, at least in that environment.

A few observations.  At about 200 yards or better, everything kinda faded into the "wall of green" and solid OD or "Ranger green" worked just about as well with the exception of ACU.  Anything to break up the outline worked well until 50 or 75 yards.  Woodland became visible at about 25 to 30 yards.  Marpat and multicam were the clear winners.  One point to note is that it's a vertical world, and anything horizontal stands out.  Tiger stripe and Realtree stood out more than non directional patterns.   An odd phenomenon was while invisible to the naked eye, the digital photos we shot with a camera was able to easily pick out anything we used!  The colors were fine but the texture stood out..  movement, contrasting colors and outline negated any camo pattern...
Lost the photos when Photobucket collapsed.  The thread may be in the archives in the Survival forum.

I actually like MTP alot better than multicam.  Same with Auscam and Slocam.

I buy British MTP pants because you can get the for $20-30 / pair.  Same with woodland and solid earthtone BDU's.  

I'm also a big fan of Railriders Versatac Light pants.  In earthtone colors.  For regular daily wear and they would double for outdoor use.

I just throw a camo top of whatever over those.  Woodland, Mandrake, ATACS ix, ATACS FG, Flecktarn, they all work decently where I'm at.

The idea of a 'viper hood' with 3d materials isn't a bad idea to break up the shoulders and head silhouette.

Just wear all your old bottoms and throw your Rhodie camo tops over them.

Also, I've got some Rhodesian Brushstroke fabric coming, going to do a test set of my belt kit in it to sell.  If there's enough demand, I'm going to start making more gear in it.

I've been saying for years that tiger stripe is used wrong.  It should be put vertically on the gear and clothing, not horizontal.

LBE patterns matter far less than your clothing patterns. Get whatever you want for the gear, but for IFF purposes you and your local group of like-minded individuals should have a clearly aligned pattern, or set of patterns. Full field sets in multicam, woodland, DCU, etc are easily found and proliferated for a team. Yet ultimately think of how you will want to portray yourself in an event necessitating IFF by worn materials alone. Low visibility options with simple outdoors clothing of solid, earth tones augmented by a nice blue shirt will leave it less likely for someone to dome you as you cross a field trying to get some water from a pond.

The point is to match your environment.

Urban - look like just another person

Remote - look like the terrain; this can change with the seasons

There is no good enough single camo.  

I have had good results with both dpm and desert Tiger stripes, maybe because the stripes are Brown and not black. I am not a fan of large black color parts in patterns, to me that concept of no black was a good conclusion that came out from the Ucp trial. Maybe the only good conclusion.

Greek camo


Also the US army tried the concept. This could have been the woodland camouflage pattern.

Agreed on the LBE patterns, as long as they are CLOSE in the shade, as in dark camo vs. light camo, of the top you are wearing it over.  Basically you don't want it to totally stand out against the top.  Though even then, it isn't a huge issue.  Multicam or Coyote / OD are probably a decent middle ground for gear actually.  Personally my gear is a mis-match of SOMEWHAT matching camo, and a quick rattle can job on stuff that's too different  (those surplus ACU flashbang pouches use for tourniquets for instance) to make it close.

Though we all know half the battle with surviving the apocalyse or WW3 is how drippy and gucci your total look is.  So you either have to have matching gucci gear, or go totally overboard on the tard.

Agreed on the no black bit.  I've been making myself a set of woodland belt kit, and I've been picking and choosing the pieces with the least amount of black on them.   :-D

This is all no shit.  I would also add, after a week in the bush, whatever you're wearing will be stained and covered in a lot of your surroundings.  And, another consideration is the shadowing in deep forests.  A solid earth tone is gonna have a bunch of nice contrast from mottled light filtering through the trees, added to mud, grass, sand, rock.  

If you guys are out in rocky, mountainous areas, try snow overwhites dyed/painted in different shades.  Seriously good camo for more open areas.  

Also good for arid, desert areas, in different shades.  Scout/Snipers at Pendelton would hit them with spray adhesive and add crumbled foam rubber for a nice textured effect.  Then krylon the whole damn thing.  

Honestly, if you have a high threat NV/thermal area, I would consider solid earth tone jacket and trou, with 3-D over-camo as required.  Printed 2-D camo patterns might be approaching obsolescence in this day and age.

My dog is black and white. Regardless of the season, when she stands still, she basically disappears. It’s uncanny.  Goes against everything I’ve been taught about camo. Same as a deer.

I decided to buy my gear in multicam because it is pretty close to a universal camo pattern for most of the year. I figured if I had to don it in an emergency over normal civi clothes, a little camo to help break up my form would be better than nothing.

Since I don't have unlimited funds, I figured that the multicam gear over other colors/types of camo would work pretty good as the seasons change.

In my younger paintball days, I found that mixing and matching camo tops and bottoms was more effective that sticking to all one type. People would not be able to see me and in paintball, ranges are measured in feet - not yards.

I think this kind of thing has it's use.  It will break up the shoulders / head silhouette, which is the most noticeable on the human body.

Everywhere I've lived in The West, nobody bats an eye when someone's wearing camo, regardless of type.

That having been said, camo is part of one's "costume" selection: use what's appropriate when it's appropriate. Sometimes blending in might mean civi clothes. I have a closet full of different patterns: DPM- woodland and desert- Flecktarn, Tropentarn, Multicam, MC Arid, MC Tropic, MTP, M81 Woodland, Rhodesian Brush Stroke, not to mention solid colors and everyday wear.

Don't get attached to any one particular pattern, and feel free to mix and match.

Agreed; head n shoulders ghillies rock out.

That concept was trialed by the army in 1978 for a "ghillie type" helmet cover that covered also the shoulders. i thik concept is still valid today, i am not aware if anyone does something similar, like one of the camouflage net type helmet cover but longer as to cover the neck and maybe the shoulders.

i am aware of the israeli mitznefet helmet cover (which on a particular occasion i used by sewing together two small mesh laundry bags in the field). Ukraine got those in the early Donbas war if i am not wrong.

this document shows that experimental cover and also has the sewing pattern if you want to make one DIZ. i think it's neat and a picture also shows one experimental pattern uniform that wouldn't become the BDU in woodland camo worn by a soldier that looks like Charlie Sheen.

I admit lack one of what's called today "3d helmet cover" or "helmet scrim" and i have been too lazy to buy or make one and it has been on top of my to do list for a while.

Plain green does a good job of still being viable camo in woodland environments while also still not immediately drawing attention in an urban environment as "oh look that guy's wearing camo".

You can also change the camo pattern of your clothing relative to your kit. You have multicam belts, PCs, chest rigs, etc, so then what would you look like in M81 woodland pants and shirt?

I find peoples camo opinions truly fascinating.

Dressing in civvy clothes sounds great until you realize you are carrying a rifle. I'd state, unequivocally, that that ruins your "blending in".

I was a diehard paintball player for 5 yrs before I joined the service. Camo works, people not wearing it were easily picked out of the terrain and promptly splattered. I'm talking about sub 50 yard range here.

If you are doing your part (not standing in the open, not standing when you don't need to be, staying close to cover and concealment, following shine discipline) camo works and can help you stay un-shot.

On the modern battlefield, with drones, not being seen seems extremely helpful. I do realize people have thermals, but I haven't seen any thermal drones used against the Russkies. They are just regular drones dropping little biombs on who they can see.

There are various version of 'Viper Hoods' - ghillie suit bases that cover the head and shoulders or head, shoulders, and arms.  Sometimes they have a back flap too.  Very similar to what you are talking about.

This one on the link is an airsoft brand, but you get the idea.

https://www.amazon.com/Tactical-Ghillie-Lightweight-Hunting-Foundation/dp/B074GZNR3V

Yes, i know of those (even the crye ones, never used them), but i was thinking something more simple, a scrim helmet cover with a Little bit of extra material on the neck area as to break the neck/shoulder outline.

Something like this that Is in between the minimal 3d covers that don't even cover the side of the helmet and such large Pieces of camo netting that look like René Higuita's hair

Well, yeah inside 100m, down to 50m if ya want, yes camo comes into play.  But it doesn't mean shit if it isn't across the board, and it doesn't do shit if you don't know how to move or use the terrain.  All most people have seen in the past few decades is guys doing "presence patrols", in and out raids, all sorts of other shit that doesn't require much if any stealth on the soldier's part.  Getting to an objective, on foot, through woodland terrain requires skillsets not in common use for a long time.  Fucking 2-D camo isn't gonna do shit if you don't know what you're doing.  Playing paintball is at the range where doctrinally you would be massing for a final assault through an objective.  Not that those skills aren't important, but if you can't navigate silently and unobserved through rough back country terrain, and find it in the first place, it really doesn't matter.  So again, inside the last 100m, camo does apply, but it is a very narrow range as compared to all the movement necessary to get there, which BTW may not matter what camo pattern you're wearing.      

I guess I need to back up and define the context I'm speaking about.  I'm talking in the case where dismounted patrolling is required and long distances may have to be covered in ordered to get to the ORP.  No landing on the "X", but using "off-sets" in today's parlance.  The type of terrain where vehicle ops is extremely difficult if not impossible.  Think mountains, jungles, and woodland areas.  And you don't own the air.  Going further I'm thinking about being in a small team, where you might be lucky to have 6 if not 4 guys.  So you're not looking for shit but are trying to avoid any contact until the time and place of your choosing.   Then it is of the hit and run nature.  Heavy emphasis on stealth, not firepower.  So yes, camo can be important but only if your individual and team movement techniques (not to mention IA drills) are spot on.  Too much emphasis is placed on camo patterns, as in which particular style or whatever, vs having the skills to leverage it to the max.  

Not trying to piss in anyone's cheerios here, just to say camo pattern choice is highly over-emphasized, IMHO.  Use whatever you got, mix n match, but get out there and patrol.  

It's pretty fucking simple.  Get out there at various light levels, weather, and so forth.  Have your buddy start about 100m out from you (or from where you can just make out his silhouette).  Have him patrol straight in at you, taking frequent security halts.  Notice what he looks like at the various ranges, and where his camo pattern comes into effect, as opposed to when you can see a head and shoulders shape, a face, hands, or rifle shape.  Think about how a head and shoulder ghillie would work, and some good camo on his face/hands/rifle vs what just camo pattern he has on.  Not to mention when you first heard him.  Shake each other down like this until you know at what ranges you have a probability of being seen or heard.  So unless you're talking about rolling into a deliberate ambush, you have a better than even chance of seeing them before they see you, in a "meeting" engagement.  Especially if you take frequent security halts. You are going to know at what ranges you need to be looking for target indicators.

This is the exact scenario I'm referring to. This type of tactical movement is, to me, the most realistic method armed citizens, who aren't static as guards or sentries, will be forced to operate due to lack of logistics, air assets, medevac,  QRF's, or any realistic expectation of reinforcements. In this environment, being unseen is absolutely the key. I'm not patrolling with someone not cammoed up. Full stop.

It's also possible I am trying to shoehorn my skillset into my plan of action, because if all you have is a hammer...........well, you know.

All I'm saying, is as someone who ISN'T in those services / departments, is that I don't want to be wearing Multicam / something that can be identified as such.  Just in case you DO get glassed by EITHER side.  

Because as of right now, you have a choice and options what to get.  

And re-read what I've said - your bottoms and gear aren't as important as your top IN THIS SPECIFIC POINT.  I still buy multicam (well, MTP) trousers.  And I have some multicam gear.

That's all I'm saying.  I'm definitely not overthinking camo - I've been advocating mix and match stuff for a long time.  I just don't want to be identified as 'hey that guy's wearing multicam!' immediately if someone did glass me.

No, I mean it's important, however it fits into a larger skillset, which gets next to no attention.  But in the context of a small team in a U-Dub environment, and depending on your estimate of the situation: enemy forces, capabilities, and intentions.  Not only a good camo pattern, but also some good 3-D camo, even if only a head n shoulders ghillie.  And face paint, and gloves, and rifle camo (at least painted).  And all rattles taped/padded.  And all shiny shit covered.  I2 considerations.  Thermal considerations.    

Then you have individual skills, both basic and advanced, which consists of individual camo, moving silently, scanning your sector (visual, I2, thermal) and so forth.  Advanced gets into specialties, either for insert and extract or skill sets required for missions.  

Then there's team skills, both basic and advanced.  Tying in with the guy in front and back of you.  Security halts.  Designating rally points.   Crossing danger areas.  Taking chow breaks.  Making comms windows.  Filling canteens at blue lines.  Occupying the RON or ORP.  Pulling fire watch.  Standing to at dawn.  Leader's recon.  Mission briefing.   Actions in the Objective area.  Consolidating back at the ORP.  Takes lots more practice.  Advanced gets into specific actions on objective, such recon and surveillance, or raids.  

Leadership development.  5 para orders.  Troop leading steps.  

Point development.  Movement.  Land nav.  Scan and target indicators.  

Comms development.  Directional antennae.  Brevity codes and encryption.  

Medical  development.  Combat casualty care.

Other specialties as required (demo, surveillance, precision marksmanship, etc.)

In this regard, camo is a small subset of basic individual training.

Thats all I'm saying.  

Other means of IFF are going to be required. Look at Ukraine: camo is all over the damned place. There isn't anything stopping a purely hypothetical national-level actor enemy from utilizing whatever camo they want, which might be the one you and your pards fancy. I'm of the mind to pick the most effective camo that works for my AO, the opposition's appearance be damned.

My thoughts on the issue; pick 'em apart and offer something constructive if ya go it.

When I'm out Squirrel hunting, I wear my Brit MTP Smock and some Multicam pants. Works good in early or late season with no or little snow.

But yeah, It all depends on where I'm at and what I'm doing.

I'll throw one more consideration into the ring:  Cost.

Not everyone can afford a half dozen $100-150 pairs of pants and 4 tops that cost about the same.  Plus rain gear, cold weather layers, footwear, headwear, gear that at least SOMEWHAT matches, packs, custom 3d camo, etc.  All that doesn't have to specifically match, but at least has to work well with your main stuff.

And that isn't a LONG TERM supply of these items.

I mean, sure, some of us can stock a couple dozen pair of gucci camo crye pants in the greatest camo pattern ever, but most of us can't.  And the money spent on that gear would be far better spent on food, ammo, medical supplies, batteries, specialty items like NODs, thermal, drones, serious commo gear, transportation, etc.  Or training.  

What decently quality hard-use camo(ish) tops and bottoms are cheap and available?  Multicam / MTP, Woodland, and solid earthtone colors.  And a couple desert colors for you desert freaks, but yall are special.  You can get new or close to new tops and bottoms in those of decent design and material for $30-40 each without having to look hard.  

Smocks?  (as someone mentioned them - and I'm a smock guy) - MTP and DPM (and desert DPM of course) British surplus is available cheap.

Rain and Cold weather gear?  Well, this is a bit more diverse, and not QUITE as important.  But US surplus stuff (multicam / earthtones again) - and a few other mix and match foreign stuff is good too, especially for specific items or deals.  

^^  The above is what people should be concentrating on.  They are cheap and work and stack them deep to replace you gucci uniform when you rip them on that barbed wire fence the 2nd day of the Chinese paratroopers invasion.

Don't take me wrong - I collect camo as a hobby.  I PREFER some of the more specialized stuff.  I have some of the nicer stuff.  I have a couple of Kryptek Mandrake smocks for instance.  Then again, I got them for $60 from SORD on clearance.  Stuff like that.  And by all means, grab yourself a set or two of the nice stuff you want.  It's a morale booster and like I said, I collect the stuff.  And half the battle is won by looking good.  But don't go spending a ton of money on this stuff.  

This is one of the reasons I am serious about woodland as a general camo pattern for the US.  It's cheap and available and not multicam (or the Chinese camos)

Their IFF is so poor that they have relied on blue or yellow tape to differentiate friend or foe. In doing so, they have eliminated the effectiveness of their camo. It really doesn't matter how well your camo works with a yellow stripe around your head.

This Is a simplistic statement, there are many factors to take into consideration in a conflict involving large units.
Remember, as counter intuitive as It seems part of the camouflage pattern Is being seen.
That Is why OP has legitimate concerns about looking like a Fed, that Is why After issuing desert camouflage for Afghanistan that clothing was retired and woodland camo was reissued because It was decided that the coalition had to wear woodland. Also Remember the strips of White engineering tape tied to the sleeve in Panama 1989 and that since then US servicemen wear High visibility flags on their uniforms?


That topic came up on another thread, i had some free time and out of curiosity searched (thru wiki and  Google, so take It for what it's worth) every friendly Fire accident of US and UK military since Vietnam and there was not a single istance where someone was injured or killed due to the fact that a camouflage uniform was mistaken for an enemy One. Poor communication and misunderstanding of SOPs where friendly soldiers walked into kill zones of ambushes or sentry points happened.

Joe is on it again.  There is a concern over how your chosen camo pattern will be interpreted.  I think that is why m81 is enjoying a resurgence.  Also if I see navy blue digi or AF blue gray TS, I'm gonna laugh at you.  AF might work...no I'm gonna laugh at you.  

Marnsdorf hit a good point as well.  There is no fucking way Imma gonna pay several hundred bucks for a pair of pants, or a shirt.  I don't care if they change colors to match terrain, harden to stop shrapnel, and wash themselves.  Well maybe if they stop shrapnel.

IFF is a problem.  I don't think "shoot on sight" is a viable solution.  I think we are going to have to figure out ways to parle with strangers without getting shot.  Maybe there will be a new flag by then (and I think you can guess all the colors).  So wearing the "old" colors, as we always did, will be a good start.  

Camoflauge is a concept, not a pattern.

I own enough military and commercial camo to outfit a small nation, but I usually hunt in gray wool or gray/green plaid wool. Gray disapears in almost any enviroment.

Funny how recon units and small teams, the guys you seem to be referring to, tended to be the first American forces to extensively use camo patterns.  Alamo Scouts, LRRPs, SF and SOG teams, doesn't matter.  Camouflaged uniforms were utilized by all.  You are right that camo is just one part of the equation, and skillsets are more important, but that's an argument for training and skillset development more than anything else.  And picking a camo pattern that is effective in your AO is a great place to start.

That also ignores the problem the OP tried to address, and that's being ID'd as a Fed by their choice in camo patterns.  It is interesting that for several of the units/teams I mentioned above, the only time they wouldn't wear camo patterns was when they would try to wear something that vaguely looked like the enemy's "uniform".  Naturally that was done almost exclusively when they were in the enemy's back yard, as doing it anywhere near friendly forces would be bad juju.  



Bingo.  Camo is likely far more important to an armed citizen/"Modern Minuteman" than it is national militaries.  Hell, we see that back with some of the original militia actions against the Brits.  Redcoats vs hunting frocks.  




Bingo again.  At that point, wear a solid color uniform for IFF purposes and call it a day.  

I think most of the views in this thread are valid, just coming from different angle.





This is THE big reason.  Sure, there is a retro thing to it, and it is available in bulk and cheap....but EVERY SINGLE PERSON I've asked why they were going big into woodland said some variation of, and about actually said  'Because I don't want to be misidentified by wearing FedCam'

Take that how you will, but that's called a clue.





I mean.  If it's got a chameleon affect, I might pony up for a pair for a few hundo.....but yes.  

I mean, seriously.  Go get a pair of the gucci stuff for lolz.  Then stock up on a dozen cheap pair of cammie pants and at least a couple BDU tops of other field shirts.  If you want to go heavy into solid color pants, fine.  Grab a few oversized BDU tops in woodland or whatever.  You can get 3 for $100.  Done.  Wear them with your solid color every day wear pants you have a dozen pair of.  

IF you want to take the approach of an  'armed prepared American citizen' concept, this last part is what we should be focusing on, and getting them to get all their other support gear, before worrying about anything else camo wise.  

If you just want to know the best camo pattern for xyz, then cool.  We can talk that too.  Pencott Greenzone for woodland type stuff.    :-)  

I wasn't trying to argue "my "side. Our individual scenarios are to distinct from one another

I am curious as to why you gents are talking about large units? Who in this thread has a large unit? Ok, don't answer that.

I'll be lucky to round up 5 guys, so all the large unit considerations are not really an issue for me. Teaching those five guys about "sergeant major eats sugar cookies", and troop leadership techniques above squad level is pointless big army nonsense.

If I can get them to get their gear together, be camouflaged, learn to patrol, and get a few battle drills down to natural reactions, I'll be happy as hell.

This is what I can do. I do not own any fancy newfangled crye stuff. BDU's and various army surplus is what I have. Since it rains more often than not, I'll be wearing green Helly Hanson raingear for just about everything anyway.

The important thing is that I/we are thinking this through, right or wrong.

You got it.

No one I know is rolling in dough, but they all have Multicam something. I'd guarantee not a bit of it is Crye. MC now is what M81 was when I was younger.

Dirty Civilian just did a video about signature reduction. A great primer for those uninitiated, and a good refresher for those who've been at this in one capacity or another for awhile.

All good thoughts.  Yes I did wonder around in the weeds a bit about training and so forth, but I was thinking in terms of why you are trying to disappear in the first place, and what is involved in that there exercise.  

On the concept of Fed Cam.  Yeah that could be something to consider.  But that cuts both ways.  Depends on who shoots more accurately.  

That is also correct, small teams trying to snoop n poop are more likely pay more attention to stuff like camo patterns and all the rest of it.  

And I have to laugh; I have tried to train folks in this sort of stuff, and had various levels of success, not to mention various levels of "buy in" and so forth.  So making it to the point where you could give a 5 paragraph order and everybody understanding WTF was going on; doing inspections, and dress rehearsals, going over DA's, Security Halts, IA drills, Occupying the ORP, blah, blah, blah; then actually executing the damn thing, and everybody hitting on all cylinders.   And being lucky to have one weekend a month to pull it off.    

The best experiences I ever had was with guys either wanting to try out for Ranger School or SF Selection.  Trying to train a civilian self-defense force is like herding cats.  Maybe with things going sideways more these days you would have better luck.  

But yeah again, we're talking about small, 4-man teams here, in all probability.  And being lucky to have that.  You have to scrub it down to what troops, weapons, and equipment are available.  Very true.

A lot of good posts in this thread, I appreciate the input and this is the kind of discussion I was hoping for.

Fortunately I don't have any MC clothing, just gear. I don't think I'm going to make an effort to switch it, at least not now. I'm just going to keep everything else woodland or another color. I like the suggestion of a lighter color pant with a dark top. Adam from spiritus systems actually hit on this in one of their videos. He said that he uses a solid pant with Camo tops so that if he needs to he can ditch the camo and blend in.

Its interesting that some others brought faded woodland being better. I've noticed that new woodland items can actually be pretty bright, and I've thought about trying to intentionally fade some a little bit.

I'd like to see their reasoning for that. When I wore the uniform, we wore M81 and it glowed in the woods when it started turning grey. The black would turn almost blue. Is it in this thread?

I like the look of the Phantomleaf patterns, and especially where they have tie-in loops for the supplied 3D scrim strips. Brent0311 has a ton of Phantomleaf vids.