Without going into details, Im basically going through a government course that recently covered air defense systems in general. Part of the a lecture had a partially demilled SA-7 Grail, with a still intact/active seeker head, brought in to show how IR works with a heat source via a heat lamp. Me already deep with DDs like a PSRL and a few 40mm's....I wondered if there are any MANPADS, either demilled or registered, floating around in civilian hands? Close I've heard was a supposed FIM-92 Stinger brought in a community gun buy back in Washington a number of years ago.

There's our own Jonathan who's built a registered DD w/ multiple rockets in his Fligerfaust.

@JonathanFL ?  Can't remember his moniker.

No....There are no registered FIM lawfully in non-corporation civilian hands.

How hard would it be to combine the panzerfaust
With a sealer head and guidance package. Some basic fins? I mean with modern computers I gotta wonder if a stinger would be smaller package and more fuel if made today.

They make flight controllers for model rockets. There seems to be some controversy over adding cameras to it

About ten years ago, a guy made a 90% legit tomahawk, in that that's how far he got before he got shut down if I recall correctly.

Interesting. Who shut him down?
What exactly is the controversy surrounding homemade guidance/seeking systems?

Chinese student did a DIY optical seeker setup
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvcDwSmmxWs&feature=youtu.be
https://youtu.be/az4UTqci8Sk?t=243
Bowman had IGLA if I recall with printed gripsticks for them, inert of course but a good convo


Per the lafayette systems guy (https://youtu.be/UeJZToWH-C4?t=204) there are no restrictions on active control rockets specifically but he alludes to seekers being a problem in that video. Ive heard of a lot of people getting there and then getting a visit and told to stop. Friend got the visit after doing a rocket launched subsonic glide vehicle for a school project.

There are quite a few demilled stingers and variants out there. The batteries, even used/inert are hard to find so people were 3d printing dummies for theirs.

I actually heard the same California buyback story during a DRMO demil class recently. Apparently it was a catalyst for a lot of demil reform.

In the old days when I did HPR, the fastest way to get the feds interested in you was any kind of active guidance
that did more than go straight up (e.g. sun seeker.) Perhaps it's changed but in the late 80s that got you so much
unwanted attention the few meets I went to wouldn't even allow that.

The general view is "the man" considers them one step away from a guided missile and they don't want
the tech/knowledge to proliferate.

When you get into the upper ranges of high performance rocketry motors (things like a M/N/O-class motors
that require the top certification for HPR clubs) -- the top O-class limit is a specific impulse of 9,208 lbf-s --
you're really damn close to lower end guided missiles -- the early AIM-7 Sparrows were 14,000 lbf-s specific
impulse. So from that perspective, I can kind of see their point, but the reality is anyone with ill intent operating
with motors at that level is probably already sophisticated enough to figure guidance out.

It's probably not an accident that anything past an O needs a FAA waiver to launch.

Visits from who?
Did they advise what came next if he didn't stop?

Was DHS+FBI years ago
No idea who it would be now, said friend is in club fed for a different crime right now so cant ask him either.

[Deleted]

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the government whereever he lived. Think he snuck and still finished it.

No controversy. Can't do it lol

(What happens, as others have alluded to, is nazi levels of self-policing in the hobby arenas. Back in the 80's, as a kid, I wanted a rocket launcher. So, I made... several. The 'hobby' people, if your goal was more than a few degrees off straight up, they would not only disown you, they'd call everyone they could find on you.

Then, springy fins and a kicker motor was enough to cock an eye. Then people started actually making simple guidance systems, like using opposing pairs of solar cells to ensure the rocket pointed to the sun. That made them queasy, because if you could 'aim' lol pun intended for the sun, you could harvest a few items out of binned vcrs and make one that would track IR.

Now they have literal postage stamp computers that can fire items based on inertia / time, GPS locating, cameras, etc etc. RF linking. Lot of stuff ripe for perversion into fun toys.

That's the only real interest I have in the ukr conflict. I have been eagerly awaiting them getting a case of stuff and making things. Haven't really seen anything out of the scope of wile e coyote solutions though.

Last thing I saw that was iffy was a guy that wanted to make a silo launched missile replica. He had a few hoops to jump through before they would allow it.

Legal - I have zero idea what CFR there is on it now. I have looked at hobby motors the size of fat well casings. Big enough if they cato'd, it would kill people at a distance. I don't know of any actual laws (not self-governing) against any of it. I do know the bigger ones need FAA deconfliction.

What I have been waiting for, is for some cranky old fart to take out a satellite. Plenty of people have made horizontal launch systems, I was really hoping someone would take the balloons or that nk spy satellite out.

I don't keep up anymore, I have no where to test like I used to.

went and read it. 2004 ruling, and it has a clause in there that if anyone, anywhere does it and harms a USPERS they are within jurisdiction of this. interesting! thanks

(wouldn't stop me if this was a topical focus)

Learned another boundary of the DD world, I certainly am one of those guys who didnt realize this. Reasons put on here on this thread make sense.

More you know right?

I really like plausible deniability as a legal mechanism, but, I generally operate under the principle that everything I like and want to do is illegal

I was accused of stealing a trainer one time. Made the news

Plenty of Demil ones out there, or at least their was 10 years ago.  I used to collect inert ordnance and rockets/missiles related items were my favorites. Couldn’t always afford everything I would want to buy, but I was keeping track of what things were available and what they were selling for. Most everything I saw transacted on GunBroker or one of the auction sites so it’s not like this was some black market collectors thing.

The Redeye was the predecessor to the stinger and was used in the Vietnam era.  Those were all single use launchers and they were/are available.  Really all of the electronics were inside the missile itself so the tube/launcher were considered inert/demil after use.  

The stinger tubes themselves were really devoid of any electronics, so those stinger tubes were somewhat available on the collector market.  However, the reusable gripstock and IFF antenna/system were not kosher to have. There were some training or instructional versions of the grip sticks that didn’t have electronics inside them that were out there I think, but they were not common at all

I can’t really recall if there is any European stuff out there.  I’m sure there was, but I was not Dabbling in the rare/very expensive stuff.

On the Soviet side, there were some of SA-7 Grail/Strela-2 tubes available.  Obviously it was more primitive, but a similar design set up like the stinger as far as a single use non-reloadable tube where you attached a reusable grip stock that had all the electronics.  As such, the tubes could be possessed.  Grip stocks with all the electronics inside would not be allowed.  There may have been some other subsequent mangas missile tubes available like SA-14 or SA18 but I can’t remember.

Thanks for posting that, and yeah it’s not legal for anyone outside a government contract

That’s why I exclusively  stay within unguided ammunition

Am I reading it right that a podunk PD could legally have or contract someone to build a MANPAD (atleast on a federal level) https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2332g

Yes, you're reading it right. Podunk PD can play too.
(My state doesn't restrict them either.)

I figured there was a reason why you just didn't see them, really surprised the tubes themselves were generally single use. Didn't realize the Stinger grip stock assembly just comes off and you mount it on a new loaded tube. Awesome systems nontheless

You kind of have it backwards in my view.

The systems are essentially disposable. To save cost, and to erect a security barrier, for, say every six rockets, you get a control unit.

So, instead of having a giant footlocker for each ready round, you get a launcher, then a bunch of unitized, sealed tubes. All you have to protect is the launcher (grip). You can put that in a pack, easy. On the other hand, you can lose control of a truckload of loaded tubes; they would be about impossible to fire in a guided sense. Might be valuable harvesting the warheads, or perhaps in an unguided volley, but you probably would not ditch medicine a lost rocket into hitting a US aviation asset in flight.

The real problem hasn't even been the grips. It is the coolant. People talk about the 'battery' for those things; you can fake a power source no problem. It is the coolant gas for the seeker head; those things leak over time. You can't get a lock I am told if there is not enough gas, and no lock, I don't think there is an override to launch without it. I suspect there might be a way to khyber pass an empty CLU with like air conditioning R12 and a schrader valve, but I have never, ever read an instance of that happening.

Far as police departments, you can just about make anything for them with a letter. That's what gets a lot of them in trouble. No one does anything cool like explosives or missiles, a lot of surveillance gear gets made this way, for instance. But what trips them up are like machine guns. Legend (because I can't remember) has it one tiny department had like half a dozen miniguns made for them.

... knowing what LA and NY PD's have at their disposal, more I ponder it, I... all I will say is if it wound up they have an anti-air capability, I wouldn't even blink.

Missed this.

As a collector, I assume it is because while a ton of dumb systems get fired every year, the smarter the system is, the fewer they can afford to pop off to become part of the diverted from the dumpster stream.

Ergo, a ton of LAW tubes, a bunch of AT4 tubes, very few TOW/DRAGON, almost no MANPADS. same same training and inert rounds.

Here is a redeye. $2500 bucks. No missile though

https://www.ima-usa.com/products/original-u-s-cold-war-inert-m41a3-fim-43-redeye-man-portable-surface-to-air-missile-launcher-manpads

the gunshow two years ago had a stack of combloc crates, I forget the nomenclature, but it was the missile and the control box, free range over ground maybe? About two foot long.

AT-3 Saggers I would almost guarantee.  A ton of the inert versions have come over and they were at a low enough price point that they have been all over gun shows.
Attached File

Ima has a nice display unit:

https://www.ima-usa.com/products/original-u-s-cold-war-inert-m41a3-fim-43-redeye-man-portable-surface-to-air-missile-launcher-manpads?variant=41036098076741&trk_msg=HC8V54IUHAJ4P2DQNHUL1MVEQS&trk_contact=MGORBHR8QO3H5MOL1TIADB8VMK&trk_sid=QPTGM1UDU89UE0T678UHBQBJQG&trk_link=NEQBU4O403K4792AUN3CKPHA5G&utm_source=Listrak&utm_medium=Email&utm_term=View+product+recommended+for+you&utm_campaign=20240508&utm_content=20240508

that's it.

I know it's not a manpad proper, but it is one of the only... large(?) rockety type things I have seen that hasn't been a hugely overpriced dusty wallhanger in some time.