ETA: I changed the name of this thread because my question about saving .223 brass for reloading for 5.6 has turned into a log of my journey into reloading.

I'm not reloading now but I did in the past, in the 1970s and 1980s. I hope and expect to be doing it again. I've yet to ever fire a .223 round out of either of our two AR-15s. But, I'm on the hunt for a varmint cartridges for them. I can't find what I want in 5.56 ammo (53 grain Hornady V-Max) but I can easily find it in .223.

I'm saving all of my brass now, for future reloading. I spent a bit more than an hour researching any potential issues with reloading .223 brass to 5.56 specs. What I found were huge differences of opinion on the matter. All the way from "totally not an issue" to "never, ever do it." Some say 5.56 brass has thicker case walls while others say that's a myth.

So I thought I'd come here and see if I could get some information from people who know what they're doing, please.

I know the 5.56 operates at higher pressures and to not put 5.56 in a .223 but it's okay to put .223 in a 5.56. I also know the exterior case dimensions of the two are the same. And I know the 5.56 chamber is slightly larger than a .223 chamber.

Should I keep any .223 brass I save separate from the 5.56 brass and only reload it to .223 specs? Or can I reload them to 5.56 specs and press on?

Oh, I tried to search for threads on this subject here; I'm sure there are, but I am almost never able to get useful results from my searches. If you know of a thread where this is hashed out, please refer me and I'll ask that this one be closed.

Thanks for the help.

It is the same brass for all applications.  There are some off brands (headstamp) of brass that has less internal case capacity.  But if you stick with the regulars and such.
Keep track of the # of firings.  Ideally sort by headstamp to maximize accuracy potential.  
And in general no varmint is going to know the difference with what they are taken down with.  Just develop a load that is safe accurate and reliable in your guns from the get go.  Have confidence is your
windage and elevation settings.
The dies are the same for 223 and 5.56.  Some out there think having a Wylde chambered barrel makes it a different cartridge.  How dumb! I have actually seen a customer argue with the owner of a local LGS about it.

Most commercial loaded ammo is gonna be loaded in 223.  

556 is mainly mil surplus / spec type ammo.

Most reloading is done to 223 spec even with 556 mil brass.

What's the old saying?  "A difference that makes no difference, is not a difference."


Used published .223 load data and .223 dies,  you'll be fine.  

This.

People confuse PSI with CUP and when you realize that .223 and 5.56 measuring standards differ, you'll see that they are for all intents and purposes, the same.

Thanks. Interesting read. I'm reading a pretty wide range of pressures depending on ammo type and they all work. Is that what I should be getting?

Use either for either, check.
Sort by headstamp, check.
Commercial ammo is loaded to .223 pressures anyway, check.
Stick with brands with good reputation, check.
Track firings for each batch of brass, check.

That tells me everything I needed to know and then some.

Thanks, everybody! Very helpful.

Arfcom rocks!

I mean, people think it's wildly different because 223 is 55kpsi and 5.56 is 62.5kcup if memory serves. People read that as 62,500psi and think it's super duper higher pressure compared to .223.

We don't have enough rifles to specialize them to such a fine degree. So we're using different types of ammo for different things in our fairly typical 16" AR carbines.

It might be a year before I start reloading but we buy ammo in bulk so I always try to think about reloading when we make a purchase choice. We like to get five boxes of three or four different types of ammo with the type of bullet we want, and put them down-range. Whichever works best, we buy in bulk. It only seems to make sense to make sure we're getting good, new, brass when we buy in bulk.

Thanks for the help!

Thank you! The majority of my 5.56 brass is from PMC X-TAC 55 gr ammo. I have about a thousand of them so far and another couple thousand un-fired. Second-most is from Winchester Lake City 55 gr ammo. I have about 500 brass and 500 unfired. The rest are smaller batches from testing 55 grain ammo.

That's an amazing offer, thanks! I'm within ten miles of the confluence of the Skykomish and Snoqualmie Rivers.

Can I take a rain check for now, please, and take you up on it when I'm closer to actually being able to start reloading? If that works for you, let's move it to IM.

All of the above and I’ll just emphasize one or two other details to be aware of if you like to run both AR15 as well as bolt.

The gas system of the AR15 needs just a little accommodation.

You will find that there are some loads that run the AR just fine, but there can be others that can creep into either too high or too low and compromise the operation. When you start out to load for an AR, try to keep that in mind when selecting recipes. Learn to watch for a healthy cycle and ejection pattern.

Pay attention to the twist rate regardless of the type of rifle.

If your barrel twist is known, then you can select the correct length bullets for stabilization. The good news is that if you are just short range blasting it almost doesn’t matter, but if you start down the varmint in road you will want to take note of the performance of different loads and bullet styles that work best for your rifles.

Nearly all commercial ammo in 223 or 556 will be magazine length or less. However, with handloading it is possible to customize the cartridge lengths for many reasons, which include ones where the length may not be compatible with an AR magazine or feed.

Commercial varmint ammo that ranges from 40 to 55 grains will typically work in just about any AR magazine. The very longest bullets will not like the slow twists, and there is occasional trouble when using very short/light bullets in something like a 1:7 twist. Try to stay in the middle of the recommended margins for your twist rates and avoid corner cases till you know what you are doing.

Among the many sources of misinformation is the TYPO.  Beware the typo, authors and readers.  Cross check and compare everything before you reload.

An example is in the quote, above.  In this case, the 6 is immediately adjacent to the 5 on the keyboard.  This is what I think was intended.

"But, that's my point above, 5.56X45 ammunition is not loaded to 52000 psi or higher, that is the maximum 3 sigma allowed at the extreme upper end of a lot, and it's limited to a tiny number of samples from the lot."

The following is a cut & paste quote from the link.

3.7.1 Measurement by copper-crush cylinder. The average chamber pressure
o€ the sample cartridges, conditioned at 70 +/- 2F, shall not exceed 52,000 pounds per square inch (PSI). The average chamber pressure plus three standard deviations of chamber pressure shall not exceed 58,000 PSI.

3.7.2 Measurement by piezoelectric transducer. The average chamber pressure of the sample cartridges, conditioned at 70 + 2F, shall not exceed 55,000 PSI. The average chamber pressure plus three standard deviations of chamber pressure shall not exceed 61,000 PSI.


P.S. - I'm not intending to pick out AeroE.  It is just the issue I am highlighting and how easy it is to make a mistake.

It is a non-issue.  I use 223 dies and 223 data and shoot it in 5.56 barrels with very good accuracy.

For whatever it's worth, none of my super accurate loads for this caliber were ever pushing 5.56 pressures.  Most were mild 223 loadings out of 5.56 or wylde chambers.

Might also want to check if any of your AR's are a wylde chamber as well before you get up and running.

Same here.  Reload as instructed in the various manuals and look for the most accurate load within those limits.  Always check for signs of excessive pressure when working up a load.

As a rule, I always stay 1/2 to 1 grain below the published limits.  I checked myself on this just last night.  Margin is your friend.

I don’t know how often you frequent this reloading subforum, but there are going to be at least two things you will read here on a regular basis  with respect to reloading.

1.  Start lower with the powder charge weights and work your way up….being sure to check the brass and primers for excessive pressure.

Attached File


Attached File


(Those are just pics from a bing image search, they are NOT my pics)

2.  Only have one bottle of powder or only one jug of powder on the bench at any time.

Like other posters have mentioned, if you are going to be shooting these through a magazine fed AR15, then the COAL you are limited to is in the 2.250” ish or 2.260” ish range.  The conventional wisdom or rule of thumb is that at magazine length or less, there is ZERO chance of you jamming the bullet into the rifling of an AR.  Like other posters have already mentioned, the heavier 80 and 90 grain bullets can go into a bolt gun or be hand fed through an AR15’s ejection port.  

As a side note….about your comment here:



I know just enough to be dangerous.

I have been reloading since 1994, mainly .45ACP and 9mm back then.

It wasn’t until about 2007 or so when I started dabbling in 3 gun competitions or multi-gun competitions that I started reloading .223 .

There are dudes here who are way more knowledgeable and experienced about rifle reloading than little ol’ me.

Take anything you read here on anywhere else on the internet with a grain of salt.

Always cross check what somebody posts as their favorite “pet load” with published data in an actual reloading manual or at a powder manufacturer’s website.

For example:

https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-data-center

Hornady doesn't manufacture a 5.56 load for the 53 grain V-MAX.  The 223 Remington load produces a velocity of 3285 FPS from a 20" Colt barrel.  Pushing it any harder than that would likely just degrade the accuracy/precision.







It is a myth.




....

The copper units of pressure (CUP) spec for 5.56 M193 is 52,000.

....

Supposedly, Starline brass has less case capacity.

I bought 500 virgin Starline .223 pieces of brass last month.

I was shooting for (no pun intended) my usual “pet load” of 25.0 grains of H335 with a 55gr FMJBT.

As it turns out, I was using a different Dillon powder measure with the small powder bar.  So the most I was getting it to drop was 24.5 grains of H335.

Then I found this video, after reading a post about Starline brass case volume:



Soooo….definitely not the best practices method, but I dialed down the powder measure to drop 24.0 grains of  H335.  Ideally, I should have gone to say 23.0, then 23.5, and then 24.0 .

I cranked out a few rounds of that before discovering concentricity issues.  Yes, again.  It might be a press issue.  I might be sending it back to Dillon to get rebuilt.  There are a few other things I am going to check first.  And I might try doing the single stage thing with the same bullet seating die and Lee FCD.

The information might have been sourced from here:
https://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2022/07/223-rem-vs-5-56x45mm-nato-what-you-need-to-know/


Probably the most popular centerfire rifle round in the Western Hemisphere is the .223 Remington and its metric match, the 5.56x45mm. Though many folks use “.223 Rem” and “5.56×45″ interchangeably, there are some meaningful differences in specifications for the original .223 Rem and the 5.56x45mm cartridge, as adopted by the U.S. military and NATO armies. The default chamber throats are slightly different and the .223 Rem is rated at 55,000 PSI vs. 62,366 PSI for the 5.56x45mm.*

I read up on Wylde chambers today because I had no idea what they are. Thanks!

How do I tell if I have one or not, please?

Markings on wife's barrel: "5.56 NATO 1/7" It has a logo on it and I recognize it but can't remember whose logo it is.  

Markings on my barrel: "5.56 NATO 1/7" and an Aero Precision logo.

Regarding pressure ... I have no desire to run "hot" loads. My interest in reloading is a) saving money, especially in 6.5mm, .300 BO, .30-30, and .357. And more if I decide to get into heavier AR-15 stuff; b) being able to load things I can't buy; and c) a hedge against future unavailability of ammo.

I used to shoot all of the time with a guy who hand-loaded and he loved hot loads. He also loved the biggest calibers he could find. .44 magnum, 7mm mag, .458,  Weatherby, and etc. I never understood why he felt he needed to load 10% over max pressures when he was already shooting some of the most powerful calibers out there. I don't think he was very good at it, either. He was always shooting huge flames out the barrel. After shooting with him for several years, I also saw the effect his juiced-up loads had on his firearms. No thank you. I never ran his ammo in my guns.

So much of firearms is all about balance, in my opinion. The way I see it, the more extreme one thing gets, the more difficult it is to balance it with everything else. I see reloading as a precision activity by which I can create the best loads possible for our guns, our needs, our situation, and etc. Best is far more often the most well-balanced than it is the most extreme in my mind.

I also find the whole process of loading, testing, adjusting, loading, testing, and etc., until the best solution is found appealing. I see me applying a lot of old flight test engineering skills to reloading. Precision measurement, data documentation, reliance on standards, repeatability, test equipment ... all appeals to me.

My "Holy Grail" for reloading? Finding the ultimate deer round for my "plain rifle," a Savage Model 340 box magazine bolt-action chambered in .30-30. I can't wait to see what I can do with ballistic .30 cal bullets through a 22" barrel.

Let me add an addition $0.02 here.  I've handloaded a good bit of 223.  The max pressure loads tend not to perform well accuracy wise.  Giving up 100 fps at the muzzle for halving the group size is a good trade off.***  I wouldn't worry about which 'spec' you're within. Just remain with safe pressures and tune a load that shoots well in your rifles.  For my part, I try to give myself a little headroom and not bump up right on the max loads as well; I like to have some padding in case it's a really hot day that elevates pressure a bit, or if I load mixed brass for stockpiling ammo, some cases have a bit less case capacity.  I definitely don't chase absolute max velocity and have never seen any real benefit to doing so.

***Only applies to my rifles, yours my behave differently.

I can't really add much more than the wealth of knowledge that's been put out above, other than get a brass catcher!  Or use a huge tarp.

Good on Dryflash for taking you under his wing.  He's one of the good ones.

Thanks. I'm perfectly fine with high standards and feel fortunate to get trained by someone with them. I used to train combat flight crews in things like anti-missile defense systems & tactics, nuclear weapon deployment, and so on. I like to think that my standards were as high as could be.

Sorting by headstamp makes perfect sense to me. If, for no other reason, than to remove one variable from the process of evaluating loads. From what little I know about reloading, there seem to be a lot of variables that can affect safety, performance, consistency, reliability, and so on. Getting rid of any variable that can be gotten rid of seems like a good idea. And sorting brass isn't all that onerous a job, in my view.

Reloading is serious stuff. I have a lot of respect for it and for people who do it well and properly. I'd like to be one of them one day. I am bound and determined to do it properly and I know full-well how little I know about it now. I feel confident my head is in the right place for me to be a good student and make the most of this great opportunity you're giving me.

I ordered some Hornady 53-grain V-Max bullets to use in training. My purpose for these loads is one-shot kills on varmints. My daily need is for 150 yards but I want them to be able to shoot 300 for when I need it. Varmints means anything that goes after our chickens and rabbits that's a fair bit smaller than a coyote. Martins, raccoons, possums, rats, feral cats, wild dogs, and so on.

Hornady's manufactured ammo says:
Velocity: 3465 fps
Muzzle Energy: 1413 ft/lbs.

I seem to remember from my research that .223 loads are tested and reported from a 20-inch test barrel. So I know not to expect that same performance out of our 16" barrels.

How about some pre-class homework for me, @dryflash3? If you let me know the powder or powders you recommend to go behind these bullets for the stated purpose, I could see what I could find by way of load data for them for 16" barrels. I would still want to use whatever load you recommend; my purpose would be to see how close what I came up with is to what we'll actually be loading. That will give me a good reality check on the little I think I already know.

Incorrect.  SAAMI 223 Remington calls for velocities from a 24" barrel.  As I posted in my previous post on the Hornady 53 grain V-MAX ammunition, this factory load had a velocity of 3285 FPS from a 20" Colt barrel.  You're not going to find much in the way of reputable load data for 16" barrels.  You use the load data from a reputable manual to find an accurate load in your 16" barrel.

The 53 grain V-MAX is a superb bullet for accuracy/precision.  It was specifically designed for a 223 Remington chamber, but still does extremely well from a 223 Wylde and 5.56 chambers.  The Hornady factory loaded ammunition with this bullet uses a non-canister-grade "Superformance" powder that you won't be able to purchase.  For accurate/precise loads with this bullet you should look at some of the faster burning (relatively speaking) short-cut extruded powders.  The 10-shot group pictured below was fired from one of my precision AR-15s using a hand-load topped with the 53 grain V-MAX.  The group has an extreme spread of 0.555".





.....

Thanks! What's the overall process for starting to develop a load? Once you know you want a load for a specific application, where do you start? By choosing the bullet? And then deciding on the velocity you want? Or do you choose the powder you want for your barrel length and then figure out the velocity?

So far in my  “memory banks”, my limited anecdotal experience , I can only recollect two instances of specific applications:

1.  A coworker of mine has thermal scopes and bolt action rifles that he hunts coyotes with at night.  He would like to keep the pelts.


2.  3 gun competitors who might encounter a spinner target at 100 yards or farther out.

Attached File


With respect to #1, my coworker found that factory ammo loaded up with Nosler ballistic silvertips :

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would go through one side of a coyote, and like fragment or explode internally and NOT exit the other side of the ‘yote.  Which was good for him because he was looking to save or sell the pelts.

He sold me at least 100 of those Ballistic Silvertips.  I haven’t tried them yet on coyotes.

So that is just a matter of going to  the Nosler reloading manual:

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And looking at the .223 section and more specifically looking at what Nosler says for their 55 grain Ballistic Silvertip.

Or go to their website:

https://www.nosler.com/223-remington

Which looks like this:

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UNFORTUNATELY, during these intra-covid or post-covid times,  you might be stuck with whatever powder from that list that you can actually buy and get your hands on from your LGS.  Or whatever say Powder Valley has listed as in stock on its website.

You will see it has starting loads listed or MIN loads listed.  From the Nosler testing, it looks like all their starting loads come out to about 2,900 fps velocity wise.

Their MAX loads top out at about 3,100 or 3,200 fps.

With you just staring out again with reloading, you can  or should start with their MIN load.  Maybe make 10 or 20 of those.  Keep them labeled, marked, or otherwise separated.  Then make another batch of 10 or 20 rounds, but with charge weight  0.2 grains higher.  Again keep those well marked or separated.  Then load up another 10 or 20, but with 0.2 more grains of powder than the last batch.  You can keep going with making reloads until you are at the MAX charge weight listed.  Shoot them for groups at 100 yards starting with the lightest weight charge first.  At each “step” or ”rung”you should check for pressure signs by looking at the headstamp especially the primer.  

A. Is there a crater where the firing pin hit it?

B.  Is the primer flattened?  (See my pic a few posts up).

C.  If a bolt action rifle is used, is the bolt hard to turn/extract after firing?

D.  How are the rounds grouping? (I use separate targets, 3 hole punch them, put them in a binder, so I can refer back to them at a later date.)

If the answers to A and B  (or C possibly) is yes, then STOP!  Do not go any farther up in the charge weights.

Like other posters have said, usually you get the best accuracy from loads that are not the MAX but rather a step or two down.

With respect to #2 above, some 3 gun competitors think you need a 75 or 77 grain bullet to get that target spinning.  That usually means a 77 grain Sierra Match King bullet (SMK).

Same thing.

Look for a Sierra reloading manual.  It appears they don’t have a reloading data website, so the next best thing is probably going to be Hodgdon’s website:

https://hodgdonreloading.com/

I selected a 77 grainer and H332 powder which gave me this:

Attached File


I have probably abused the  all caps key too much in this post, but one thing I want to make absolutely clear is this:

In all your testing and shooting for groups, ONLY CHANGE ONE THING AT A TIME.  You are trying your best to keep all the other variables constant or the same.  That way you can conclude that the ONE THING you did change is creating the effects you are seeing.

For example, if you only have like 20 Winchester Small Rifle primers left, don’t  start to put together a “ladder test” using those WSRP’s and then switch to CCI primers for the rest of your test.

I load all of my .223/5.56 brass for sage rats the same:  25.1 gr TAC under a 55 JHP.  (Nosler, Hornady, Varmint Nightmare, whatever)  They load and shoot straight and great at 3000fps +/-.  I don't sort headstamps.  Sage rats never know what hit them.

Great information, thank you very much.

Thanks. Great quote!

Anxious to learn, absolutely. Anxious to blow myself up making rookie mistakes ... not so much.

Thanks. I'll play around with some H-335 references and see what I can learn.

Thanks! Lot's to think about.

I won't be chasing velocity. To me, velocity is a means, not an end. Accuracy, reliability, and consistency are what I'm after. Whatever velocity gets those is the velocity I need. Whether it's the fastest or not doesn't matter to me.