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Posted: 4/18/2024 7:17:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Airborne11B]
Yes yes I know…a gripe about a set of 10k+ NODs wahhh cry me a river…I get it. First world problems like a motherfucker.

But why in the ever loving fuck is the dovetail plastic? They literally wobble a little bit in my G24 so I had to buy a Wilcox PVS-31 dovetail to make it feel more secure.

EDIT: disregard my rant…it’s metal, I had originally tapped it with my finger and I thought it was plastic, but nope it’s metal.
Link Posted: 4/18/2024 7:30:23 PM EDT
[#1]
Originally Posted By Airborne11B:
Yes yes I know a gripe about a set of 10k+ NODs wahhh cry me a river I get it. First world problems like a motherfucker.

But why in the ever loving fuck is the dovetail plastic? They literally wobble a little bit in my G24 so I had to buy a Wilcox PVS-31 dovetail to make it feel more secure.

L3 Harris is so fucking cheap.

Is the dovetail on the GPNVGs plastic too? 40k set of NODs on a 2 dollar piece of plastic.
View Quote
Must be a recent change if true. My L3 1531s bought new last year have a metal dovetail.
Link Posted: 4/18/2024 7:37:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Airborne11B] [#2]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mbz451:
Must be a recent change if true. My L3 1531s bought new last year have a metal dovetail.
View Quote



I’m eating my words right now, I’m an idiot….i just tapped it with a screw driver and yep it’s metal. I had originally tapped it with my finger and thought it was plastic.

Carry on L3 LOL…but it still sucks that it wobbles slightly in a G24 and requires an aftermarket dovetail to get rid of the slop.
Link Posted: 4/18/2024 7:54:27 PM EDT
[#3]
Link Posted: 4/19/2024 1:00:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: TNVC_Augee] [#4]
Link Posted: 4/19/2024 1:46:18 AM EDT
[#5]
Originally Posted By Airborne11B:
Yes yes I know…a gripe about a set of 10k+ NODs wahhh cry me a river…I get it. First world problems like a motherfucker.

But why in the ever loving fuck is the dovetail plastic? They literally wobble a little bit in my G24 so I had to buy a Wilcox PVS-31 dovetail to make it feel more secure.

EDIT: disregard my rant…it’s metal, I had originally tapped it with my finger and I thought it was plastic, but nope it’s metal.
View Quote


This is the plastic dovetail you seek. You can shame it now if you want

Attachment Attached File

Link Posted: 4/19/2024 11:32:38 AM EDT
[#6]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TNVC_Augee:


Technically it's actually the Wilcox interface that's "out of spec."  

L3Harris Integrated Vision Solutions (IVS), if you follow the path back, is the current form of Litton, who designed the AN/PVS-7A and AN/PVS-7C, the very first goggles to have the spade-shaped dovetail shoe interface (ITT concurrently designed the "USGI" bayonet mount used on the AN/PVS-7B and D), and if you float around folks enough, you will, to this day, hear the interface referred to as the "Litton Dovetail."

As such, it was actually Wilcox Industries, which slightly altered some of the dovetail shoe dimensions and tolerances to provide a tighter lockup, which is why they also manufacture matching replacement dovetail shoes, not just for the AN/PVS-31 series, but for a wide range of goggle systems, because controlling both sides of the interface connection is the only way to really guarantee a tight(er) lockup.

However, a) when the government provides the TDP to other manufacturers, they do not provide drawings/dimensions/tolerances for the Wilcox dovetail, they provide them for the Litton dovetail, and b) a contract item like the G24 must also be compatible with the TDP spec dovetail in addition to the Wilcox dovetail.

Finally, as has already been mentioned--this was the discussion all the time about carbine stocks back during GWOT, and the reason MagPul invented the CTR, in many cases, the commercial market always demands "tighter, tighter, tighter!" while military customers are frequently saying "looser, looser, looser!" because their concern is foreign debris, whether it's Afghan moon-dust that's been kicked up by a helicopter, or red clay mud in the backwoods of the American Southeast. Jam a bunch of that stuff in there, and then try to mount a goggle or helmet mount, and you'll find out pretty quickly why the "wobble" that so many complain about is in fact there by design--because ultimately, you may hear a really ugly scraping, grinding sound, but chances are, whatever you're trying to connect will lock in place.

You do that with the kind of fit that commercial customers often demand, and, well...

And yeah roger, I get it, not everyone wants to have what they get dictated by what the military wants--I'm explaining the "why" of it, not saying that you've got to like it.

But, your username is "Airborne11B."

~Augee
View Quote


I knew someone would notice that and I was ready for the ribbing - I r grunt n kant brane gud I'm keeping this thread up to prostrate myself adequately.

Honestly it makes a lot of sense now that you say - too little play and you make it easier to get gummed up / stuck / whatever. And it wasn't even bothering me using them - I didn't really notice the play shooting with them, it was just a gripe of *knowing* that it was slightly loose.

Atleast the Wilcox shoe was only like 60 bucks shipped so I can handle that - most of the time Wilcox thinks their stuff is made of platinum.
Link Posted: 4/19/2024 11:36:20 AM EDT
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By French1966:


This is the plastic dovetail you seek. You can shame it now if you want

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/496867/IMG_0726_jpeg-3191849.JPG
View Quote



Good ole PVS-7A . . . I've never actually used one (I'm a relative young'in ) but damn that looks brittle. And I thought the shitty plastic J-Arm/Bayonets for PVS-14s were bad.
Link Posted: 4/19/2024 12:12:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TNVC_Augee] [#8]
Link Posted: 4/19/2024 12:53:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Airborne11B] [#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TNVC_Augee:
In defense of Litton, the original mount interface design intended to be used with the AN/PVS-7A and C was also plastic.

Does look vaguely "familiar," though, doesn't it?


https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/468022/IMG_0435-3192140.jpg

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/468022/IMG_0436-3192141.jpg


And just as proof and illustration about the influence of TDP specs and tolerances--as you can see, even though the mount is likely pushing 40 years old--it is still compatible with the "new hotness":

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/468022/IMG_0437-3192143.jpg

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/468022/IMG_0438-3192144.jpg


Same old Litton dovetail design:

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/468022/IMG_0439-3192145.jpg


The eye relief is definitely a little tight with the F-BINO, but it does in fact work, though, no, as you can see, I did not actually bother to plug up the cable (it's currently attached to... you know, and actual helmet...) because even I'm not enough of a masochist to actually use it in this configuration, even "for science."

I did try to rig up the GPNVGs, and the dovetail / bridge will fit, but because of the reduced eye relief of the GPG due to the need to "wrap around" to provide the full 97o field of view, the complete system will not fit on the old Litton head mount because of insufficient mount extension and the optical pods impinge on the harness design.

Also, please do not judge my disaster area of a workbench.  



~Augee
View Quote



Messy workbenches are the best…it means work actually gets done there. and finding stuff quickly is for chumps.


That old mount is wild…I never knew it was the OG to the G-Series from Wilcox and it’s barely changed.


But let’s talk about that head mount….that thing seems like it’s screaming “I’m here to participate in some tactical S&M in complete darkness and NVG me harder daddy”
Link Posted: 4/19/2024 5:39:32 PM EDT
[#10]
Originally Posted By Airborne11B:
Yes yes I know…a gripe about a set of 10k+ NODs wahhh cry me a river…I get it. First world problems like a motherfucker.

But why in the ever loving fuck is the dovetail plastic? They literally wobble a little bit in my G24 so I had to buy a Wilcox PVS-31 dovetail to make it feel more secure.

EDIT: disregard my rant…it’s metal, I had originally tapped it with my finger and I thought it was plastic, but nope it’s metal.
View Quote


Yeah I had same experience. I replaced original L3Harris dovetail shoe with Wilcox one and L3Harris BNVD PVS-31A locks now tightly with Wilcox G24. Well worth upgrade IMHO.
Usually people who don't replace L3Harris dovetail shoe, solve this by using bungees from helmets hooked to PVS-31A to provide tension and mitigate wobble. I guess another solution is to put some dirt between dovetail shoe and mount lol :)
Link Posted: 4/19/2024 5:45:01 PM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By French1966:


This is the plastic dovetail you seek. You can shame it now if you want

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/496867/IMG_0726_jpeg-3191849.JPG
View Quote

That plastic dovetail was also used on older generation L3 GPNVG-18

Link Posted: 4/19/2024 6:09:38 PM EDT
[#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TNVC_Augee:
In defense of Litton, the original mount interface design intended to be used with the AN/PVS-7A and C was also plastic.

Does look vaguely "familiar," though, doesn't it?


https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/468022/IMG_0435-3192140.jpg

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/468022/IMG_0436-3192141.jpg


And just as proof and illustration about the influence of TDP specs and tolerances--as you can see, even though the mount is likely pushing 40 years old--it is still compatible with the "new hotness":

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/468022/IMG_0437-3192143.jpg

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/468022/IMG_0438-3192144.jpg


Same old Litton dovetail design:

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/468022/IMG_0439-3192145.jpg


The eye relief is definitely a little tight with the F-BINO, but it does in fact work, though, no, as you can see, I did not actually bother to plug up the cable (it's currently attached to... you know, and actual helmet...) because even I'm not enough of a masochist to actually use it in this configuration, even "for science."

I did try to rig up the GPNVGs, and the dovetail / bridge will fit, but because of the reduced eye relief of the GPG due to the need to "wrap around" to provide the full 97o field of view, the complete system will not fit on the old Litton head mount because of insufficient mount extension and the optical pods impinge on the harness design.

Also, please do not judge my disaster area of a workbench.  



~Augee
View Quote



I don’t know many people with a dusty L3 Fusion bino casually laying around their “disaster of a work bench”

I’ve never felt more inadequate
Link Posted: 4/19/2024 8:06:29 PM EDT
[#13]
Link Posted: 4/19/2024 8:25:45 PM EDT
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Airborne11B:



Good ole PVS-7A . . . I've never actually used one (I'm a relative young'in ) but damn that looks brittle. And I thought the shitty plastic J-Arm/Bayonets for PVS-14s were bad.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Airborne11B:
Originally Posted By French1966:


This is the plastic dovetail you seek. You can shame it now if you want

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/496867/IMG_0726_jpeg-3191849.JPG



Good ole PVS-7A . . . I've never actually used one (I'm a relative young'in ) but damn that looks brittle. And I thought the shitty plastic J-Arm/Bayonets for PVS-14s were bad.


I cut my teeth on the old 7A. Was the first set of NODs I ever used. I got pretty damn good with those and the 7B. That dovetail mount is damn durable. It held up to me falling down and busting my ass many times.
Link Posted: 4/19/2024 10:47:32 PM EDT
[#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TNVC_Augee:
In defense of Litton, the original mount interface design intended to be used with the AN/PVS-7A and C was also plastic.

Does look vaguely "familiar," though, doesn't it?


https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/468022/IMG_0435-3192140.jpg


https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/468022/IMG_0436-3192141.jpg


And just as proof and illustration about the influence of TDP specs and tolerances--as you can see, even though the mount is likely pushing 40 years old--it is still compatible with the "new hotness":

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/468022/IMG_0437-3192143.jpg

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/468022/IMG_0438-3192144.jpg


Same old Litton dovetail design:

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/468022/IMG_0439-3192145.jpg


The eye relief is definitely a little tight with the F-BINO, but it does in fact work, though, no, as you can see, I did not actually bother to plug up the cable (it's currently attached to... you know, and actual helmet...) because even I'm not enough of a masochist to actually use it in this configuration, even "for science."

I did try to rig up the GPNVGs, and the dovetail / bridge will fit, but because of the reduced eye relief of the GPG due to the need to "wrap around" to provide the full 97o field of view, the complete system will not fit on the old Litton head mount because of insufficient mount extension and the optical pods impinge on the harness design.

Also, please do not judge my disaster area of a workbench.  



~Augee
View Quote


How do you like those fusion goggles?
Link Posted: 4/23/2024 10:27:47 PM EDT
[#16]
Link Posted: 4/24/2024 7:22:27 AM EDT
[#17]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TNVC_Augee:


They're pretty cool.



Hard to say a whole lot bad about them to be honest, hahaha.

The L3Harris BNVD-FUSED is the SOF F-BINO / LE variant of the Army's AN/PSQ-36 ENVG-B goggle, and frankly, IMHO, better, as it does not use the Army's "Universal Hot Shoe" design, which requires the Wilcox UHMA mounting system, and it deletes much of the Army-specific software features like the ability to interface remotely with the AN/PAS-35 FWS-I and use the RTA functions, which honestly make the system simpler, more rugged, more reliable, and more user-friendly for most users (though I do wish I could interface it with the FWS-I).

They look yuuuge, and I cannot really explain that other than just the "blocky" aesthetics and the layout--the goggle is actually not significantly larger--or heavier than the AN/PVS-31A, and the goggle itself is actually roughly the same weight as the L3 BNR (BNVD-1531), though the battery pack is slightly larger and heavier. The only dimension / configuration in which it's significantly larger than the BNG / BNR is when the optical pods are rotated up due to the longer monocular "arms," however it is still well within the width dimensions of a helmet, and actually, due to the lack of an onboard battery compartment and relatively high and thin bridge, the field of view under the goggles is actually clearer and wider than with the BNG / BNR, though the thermal sensor housing does obstruct a small portion of the right peripheral field of view due to sheer mass.

I'm also a big fan of the built-in HUD, which even stand-alone will provide you with location and heading data if you're not able to fully integrate it with TAK.

Might be time for me to do an old-school product review... I haven't done one here in a loooooooong time.

Typically I try not to / prefer not to do reviews of restricted products so as not to make it look like I'm "rubbing it in" (unfortunately the BNVD-FUSED is not yet available for commercial / consumer sales--may have to do with the nearly $256M Army ENVG-B order they received at the end of last year, and we are quoting over a year to Federal LE customers, moreover, L3Harris may have gotten a little bit more nervous about releasing their high-technology advanced products to the commercial market recently), however the fused goggles always seem to attract some questions and curiosity nevertheless, and there's honestly not a whole lot about them out there yet.

~Augee
View Quote


I would love to see an in-depth review on that setup. I can dare to dream that they'll be available, and that I'd actually be able to afford one, someday
Link Posted: 4/24/2024 9:07:42 AM EDT
[#18]
@TNVC_Augee: Why has L3Harris gotten more nervous about releasing their high-technology advanced products to the commercial market recently?
Link Posted: 4/24/2024 1:17:42 PM EDT
[#19]
Link Posted: 4/24/2024 1:28:21 PM EDT
[#20]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TNVC_Augee:


This kind of feels a little "bait"-y, and I kind of regret even bringing it up and potentially opening another can of worms, but let's just say it might have something to do with a Greek multi-eyed mythological being, and I'll leave it at that.

~Augee
View Quote


I totally understand them. Makes sense. Thanks for clearing that up :)
Link Posted: 4/24/2024 6:14:15 PM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TNVC_Augee:


They're pretty cool.



Hard to say a whole lot bad about them to be honest, hahaha.

The L3Harris BNVD-FUSED is the SOF F-BINO / LE variant of the Army's AN/PSQ-36 ENVG-B goggle, and frankly, IMHO, better, as it does not use the Army's "Universal Hot Shoe" design, which requires the Wilcox UHMA mounting system, and it deletes much of the Army-specific software features like the ability to interface remotely with the AN/PAS-35 FWS-I and use the RTA functions, which honestly make the system simpler, more rugged, more reliable, and more user-friendly for most users (though I do wish I could interface it with the FWS-I).

They look yuuuge, and I cannot really explain that other than just the "blocky" aesthetics and the layout--the goggle is actually not significantly larger--or heavier than the AN/PVS-31A, and the goggle itself is actually roughly the same weight as the L3 BNR (BNVD-1531), though the battery pack is slightly larger and heavier. The only dimension / configuration in which it's significantly larger than the BNG / BNR is when the optical pods are rotated up due to the longer monocular "arms," however it is still well within the width dimensions of a helmet, and actually, due to the lack of an onboard battery compartment and relatively high and thin bridge, the field of view under the goggles is actually clearer and wider than with the BNG / BNR, though the thermal sensor housing does obstruct a small portion of the right peripheral field of view due to sheer mass.

I'm also a big fan of the built-in HUD, which even stand-alone will provide you with location and heading data if you're not able to fully integrate it with TAK.

Might be time for me to do an old-school product review... I haven't done one here in a loooooooong time.

Typically I try not to / prefer not to do reviews of restricted products so as not to make it look like I'm "rubbing it in" (unfortunately the BNVD-FUSED is not yet available for commercial / consumer sales--may have to do with the nearly $256M Army ENVG-B order they received at the end of last year, and we are quoting over a year to Federal LE customers, moreover, L3Harris may have gotten a little bit more nervous about releasing their high-technology advanced products to the commercial market recently), however the fused goggles always seem to attract some questions and curiosity nevertheless, and there's honestly not a whole lot about them out there yet.

~Augee
View Quote



Would love to see a review! If you could do a comparison against the ECOTI / TAD that would be awesome too. Spotting a dog or raccoon / other varmints in brush / grass would be cool (and of course humans too)
Link Posted: 4/25/2024 1:21:35 PM EDT
[#22]
@TNVC_Augee do L3Harris BNVD-Fused come with -1610 tubes or SuperGain?
Link Posted: 4/26/2024 2:13:21 AM EDT
[#23]
Link Posted: 4/26/2024 12:39:51 PM EDT
[#24]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TNVC_Augee:


As with most L3Harris products, there are actually several different part numbers for the BNVD-FUSED that can all differ slightly based on "trim," and more importantly, tube performance / tube types, some of which are limited to specific users, export purposes, or even individual customers, etc., and the BNVD-FUSED can get even more complicated, because it can be purchased with or without the onboard illuminator as well as some other options, including the cost and complexity (and capabilities) of the battery pack, and that's before going into the more specific DoD F-BINO and AN/PSQ-42 ENVG-B programs.

That being said, most of L3Harris' current "Commercial" (L3 considers both Law Enforcement and Private Consumers to be "Commercial" customers) BNVD-FUSED variants use standard 65K Gain tubes.

The most "common" U.S. LE Variant (and the one pictured) is the BFG-000-A14, which is 2376+ Min. FOM (Standard Gain), with illuminator, and Fused Battery Pack (FBP), and I am 90% certain that they are -1610 "Military" (Ground) tubes, however, I seem to have misplaced the spec sheets to tell you 100% what the full tube P/Ns are. (We do also keep copies on file, but I don't have access to the database right this moment from home). That being said, there are a couple of different contract extensions out there for that tube type, so it could be another equivalent one--either way, the BFG-000-A14 is spec'ed for Standard Gain, 2376+ Min. FOM Ground tubes. However, most of the ENVG-B and F-BINOs are SuperGain.

Some of this really just has to do with the odd way that L3Harris does things internally, as the SuperGain, despite what various claims on the internet have asserted, originated as a DoD program, so they became integrated into DoD programs, however even within L3Harris they weren't really given a whole lot of attention on the "Commercial" side.

The /1225 OID tubes that we carry and are used in both our in-house built SuperGain systems as well as our L3Harris-built SuperGain BNG and BNRs are actually a rather unique animal as far as tubes go, as they came out of the DoD tube program, not the commercial (LE) side of the house, making them probably the best tubes you can currently obtain on the open market and without going through some sort of selection process (at least in terms of a general baseline, and excepting the occasional "unicorn" tubes that sometimes pop up in other contract shipments), and hence thing like the somewhat unusual FOM maximum, despite the fact that the contract extension is a -24UMH, with the "U" normally meaning "Unlimited"--the "L" or "Limited"-series are usually FOM limited tubes intended for export. The numerical value usually indicates the "Max" FOM in a Limited format in 200 FOM increments, so the theoretical FOM minimum is usually 2, or 200 FOM less than the two digit performance code, e.g., -18LM = FOM Limited, 1800 (1792) Max. / 1600 (1540) Min., that being said, this is usually irrelevant to U.S. consumers who primarily purchase "Unlimited" series tubes, so while an -18UM has a theoretical "floor" of 1600 (1540), there is no real "ceiling," and L3Harris' tube manufacturing has gotten refined enough to the point where it takes way more effort to manufacture even an 1800 FOM tube versus a 2400 FOM tube, meaning the baseline performance of Unlimited tubes far far exceeds the stated contract minimums, it simply cannot be "guaranteed" beyond that level, which to a certain extent becomes almost a numbers game.

...Anyways though, tangent aside--my point is that the secondary OID (Order ID) in some cases can be far more important than whatever the primary P/N spec is, which is why it always gives me a little chuckle when folks argue back and forth over the "finer points" of 18 vs. 20 vs. 22 (etc.) UA or UM, often without really even knowing what the tube P/N codes mean. However the OIDs can indicate additional contract modifications beyond the P/N baseline. We have a few unique OIDs out there for different tube types and performance levels.

Prior to our launch of SuperGain, it was not particularly well known, again, even within the "commercial" side of L3Harris--technically prior to our launch agreement with L3Harris, any customer could have requested it (which was the subject of much gnashing of teeth on the internet at the time), most either didn't know about it, or didn't understand what it was, so no one really requested them and the BNVD-FUSED P/Ns and BOMs were largely established prior to our launch of SuperGain, and for better or for worse, because of L3Harris' size and complexity, changing or creating a new P/N can be a nearly Herculean effort, and in reality our commercial launch of SuperGain was delayed further than we'd hoped and intended (apparently I'm dishing old stories now, so why the hell not... ) not because we weren't ready, not because we didn't have the inventory, at least of tubes, but because of delays not even in getting a new P/N approved--but the actual bureaucratic process of creating and assigning a new P/N takes that long.

Meanwhile, we can replace tubes in the PVS-31 (BNG) and 1531 (BNR) pretty easily in-house, and so can the DoD, and turn almost any goggle into a SuperGain system, just like we do with our own TN/TNV-branded goggles, but we felt it was important to launch with "factory systems," lest customers have any confusion about their being "legitimate" L3Harris systems, even though most of our Build Team are factory certified maintainers for BNG/BNR-family. Unfortunately, the BNVD-FUSED / F-BINO / ENVG-B still needs to return to the mothership to get new tubes.

So yeah, most "Commercial" BNVD-FUSED systems, including our demo units are not SuperGain.

Sheesh, this has got to be some sort of record for the longest, most convoluted reply to a question that could have been answered with one word, even for me!



~Augee
View Quote



Awesome info there, if in the BNVD FUSED review you have the F PANO make a guest appearance that would be sweet
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