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PA, USA
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Posted: 10/20/2023 7:57:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Lancelot]
Let me preface this by saying I am new to considering an SBR and I am asking for advice on how to go about this so I am complying completely with the law. I have no intent on breaking any laws, so my questions are to get a sense of how to proceed legally.
From what I gather, you can buy a complete SBR upper and lower, say from PSA, for a pretty reasonable price. The upper can be shipped to you and the lower of course needs to go through an FFL. But because when you put those together you now have an SBR, you need a form 1 stamp to do so. So it seems you should not even have the 2 pieces separated in your home until you have the form 1? And since I own an assembled AR rifle, I don't even know if I could order the upper and have an FFL hold the lower while I wait for the stamp because it could be looked at as intent to build a illegal firearm because you can swap the SBR upper onto the rifles lower? And since the Form 1 needs the actual length, how do you even know that without assembling to see measure? Can you have someone else hold the upper so it's not in your possession while you take possession of the lower from an FFL? With supply chains still messy ands the world getting crazier, I'd hate to order half then not be able to get the other half once I have the stamp. What is the right way to proceed/ order so as to be compliant? |
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IA, USA
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Posted: 10/19/2023 10:29:36 AM EDT
[#1]
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NC, USA
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Posted: 10/19/2023 10:50:26 AM EDT
[#2]
In today’s climate, it is indeed unwise to have a short barreled upper, although unassembled, if you don’t have a registered lower. I believe constructive possession is the term that they like to use.
You may want to just purchase the lower, file your paperwork, and wait until you receive the stamp before buying or building the upper. If only looking at PSA stuff, they run sales everyday so it’s not a big deal. You could also purchase a 16” upper with your lower and once your stamp comes through, you can rebarrel it with the shorter barrel that you want or sell the 16” upper and replace it with a shorter one. That way you have a functioning firearm while you’re waiting on the stamp. |
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Posted: 10/19/2023 10:55:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: KILLERB6]
[#3]
1. Buy lower.
2. Register lower. 3. Wait for approval. 4. Buy upper. |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 10/19/2023 10:57:39 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JustDaniel: In today’s climate, it is indeed unwise to have a short barreled upper, although unassembled, if you don’t have a registered lower. I believe constructive possession is the term that they like to use. You may want to just purchase the lower, file your paperwork, and wait until you receive the stamp before buying or building the upper. If only looking at PSA stuff, they run sales everyday so it’s not a big deal. You could also purchase a 16” upper with your lower and once your stamp comes through, you can rebarrel it with the shorter barrel that you want or sell the 16” upper and replace it with a shorter one. That way you have a functioning firearm while you’re waiting on the stamp. Yes I believe constructive possession or intent is what I am concerned about. When buying an assembled lower, do you designate it as an SBR lower specifically at the FFL? There is no technical difference between a rifle and SBR lower correct? Reading all the FAQ is making my head hurt. Now I get the appeal of a pistol w/ Brace before the ATF did what the ATF does. I could go the AR pistol route and hope the brace rule is overturned but it looks like pistols are now using buffer tubes that prevent a brace from being installed if it is "ruled" legal again. |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 10/19/2023 10:58:20 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By KILLERB6: 1. Buy lower. 2. Register. 3. Wait for approval. 4. Buy upper. How do you fill out the specific length? |
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Posted: 10/19/2023 10:58:36 AM EDT
[#6]
If you have a lower then just SBR it.
Takes 7 - 30 days. A factory SBR currently takes 9 months. |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 10/19/2023 11:01:21 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By IwasBrian: If you have a lower then just SBR it. Takes 7 - 30 days. A factory SBR currently takes 9 months. Don't have a lower. But wouldn't buy a factory built SBR. Would be buying a fully assembled upper and lower in the correct order. |
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Posted: 10/19/2023 11:09:14 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By curlyjive: How do you fill out the specific length? |
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Posted: 10/19/2023 11:12:04 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By curlyjive: Don't have a lower. But wouldn't buy a factory built SBR. Would be buying a fully assembled upper and lower in the correct order. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By curlyjive: Originally Posted By IwasBrian: If you have a lower then just SBR it. Takes 7 - 30 days. A factory SBR currently takes 9 months. Don't have a lower. But wouldn't buy a factory built SBR. Would be buying a fully assembled upper and lower in the correct order. Purchase whatever lower that you prefer. Then go through the procedure to SBR that lower. The lower is the SBR. Not the upper. Choose whatever is the shortest length URG as the length. Going longer than that will never be an issue. Use the Silencer Shop kiosk to assist you. Purchase any URG that you want at any time but know your local and state laws. A flow through type suppressor is very useful so if you can swing it financially then start that process as well. |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 10/19/2023 11:16:43 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By IwasBrian: Purchase whatever lower that you prefer. Then go through the procedure to SBR that lower. The lower is the SBR. Not the upper. Choose whatever is the shortest length URG as the length. Going longer than that will never be an issue. Use the Silencer Shop kiosk to assist you. Purchase any URG that you want at any time but know your local and state laws. A flow through type suppressor is very useful so if you can swing it financially then start that process as well. Got it, that is helpful. So if you have a lower shipped to an FFL, do you fill out a standard firearms form and designate it as an SBR? I'm assuming you need to specify the lower as an SBR at the FFL and not just on the Form 1. And do they then hold it while the form 1 is in process? |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 10/19/2023 11:18:17 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By D_Man: For an AR15 platform with a common collapsing carbine type stock, take the length of the barrel on the upper you plan to use and add 19 inches to get the overall length within an acceptable degree of accuracy for the form. I've read mixed things on this. I've read it needs to be specific as well as what you are saying. If if needs to be specific, I would think even the padding thickness of different butt plates could account for an 1" of difference. |
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Posted: 10/19/2023 11:18:46 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By curlyjive: I've read mixed things on this. I've read it needs to be specific as well as what you are saying. If if needs to be specific, I would think even the padding thickness of different butt plates could account for an 1" of difference. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 10/19/2023 11:22:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Zerlak]
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By curlyjive: Got it, that is helpful. So if you have a lower shipped to an FFL, do you fill out a standard firearms form and designate it as an SBR? I'm assuming you need to specify the lower as an SBR at the FFL and not just on the Form 1. And do they then hold it while the form 1 is in process? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By curlyjive: Originally Posted By IwasBrian: Purchase whatever lower that you prefer. Then go through the procedure to SBR that lower. The lower is the SBR. Not the upper. Choose whatever is the shortest length URG as the length. Going longer than that will never be an issue. Use the Silencer Shop kiosk to assist you. Purchase any URG that you want at any time but know your local and state laws. A flow through type suppressor is very useful so if you can swing it financially then start that process as well. Got it, that is helpful. So if you have a lower shipped to an FFL, do you fill out a standard firearms form and designate it as an SBR? I'm assuming you need to specify the lower as an SBR at the FFL and not just on the Form 1. And do they then hold it while the form 1 is in process? No. You literally just buy the lower the way you'd buy any lower. You take that lower and fill out a form 1 online (can do paper if you prefer but E-Form is easy). Submit your Form 1, submit your fingerprints/photos and pay your 200. Wait for your stamp to return, engrave the lower and put your short barrel upper on the lower. You do not need to wait to purchase the upper either. Realistically speaking, a stripped lower can be a "pistol" and as such, can have the short barrel upper to go with it. The only time an FFL holds onto your lower is if you were buying a factory SBR. You get to keep your lower at home with you, while you wait for the Form 1. You're making it more complex on yourself than you need, good sir. |
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Posted: 10/19/2023 11:22:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: IwasBrian]
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By curlyjive: Got it, that is helpful. So if you have a lower shipped to an FFL, do you fill out a standard firearms form and designate it as an SBR? I'm assuming you need to specify the lower as an SBR at the FFL and not just on the Form 1. And do they then hold it while the form 1 is in process? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By curlyjive: Originally Posted By IwasBrian: Purchase whatever lower that you prefer. Then go through the procedure to SBR that lower. The lower is the SBR. Not the upper. Choose whatever is the shortest length URG as the length. Going longer than that will never be an issue. Use the Silencer Shop kiosk to assist you. Purchase any URG that you want at any time but know your local and state laws. A flow through type suppressor is very useful so if you can swing it financially then start that process as well. Got it, that is helpful. So if you have a lower shipped to an FFL, do you fill out a standard firearms form and designate it as an SBR? I'm assuming you need to specify the lower as an SBR at the FFL and not just on the Form 1. And do they then hold it while the form 1 is in process? You purchase the lower and fill out the standard form. That rifle lower is now yours. It is not an SBR lower and at no time during the SBR process do you lose possession ( or use ) of your rifle lower. When your SBR app is approved you will send it somewhere to be engraved ( you are now the manufacturer of the SBR ) and when you get the SBR lower back from the engraver you are free to attach whatever length upper that your local and state laws allow. |
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WI, USA
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Posted: 10/19/2023 11:30:30 AM EDT
[#15]
You can always modify the OAL and barrel length afterwards if it changes or is not accurately reflected in the original registration.
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IA, USA
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Posted: 10/19/2023 12:11:47 PM EDT
[#16]
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Posted: 10/19/2023 12:27:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: KILLERB6]
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By curlyjive: How do you fill out the specific length? No one is ever going to see it but you. |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 10/19/2023 12:31:33 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Zerlak: No. You literally just buy the lower the way you'd buy any lower. You take that lower and fill out a form 1 online (can do paper if you prefer but E-Form is easy). Submit your Form 1, submit your fingerprints/photos and pay your 200. Wait for your stamp to return, engrave the lower and put your short barrel upper on the lower. You do not need to wait to purchase the upper either. Realistically speaking, a stripped lower can be a "pistol" and as such, can have the short barrel upper to go with it. The only time an FFL holds onto your lower is if you were buying a factory SBR. You get to keep your lower at home with you, while you wait for the Form 1. You're making it more complex on yourself than you need, good sir. Yes I do overcomplicate things and I really am trying to follow the law.  But this is extremely help and I thank you!On waiting to purchase the upper....this seems to be a sticking point of some debate if having the upper and lower in the same location (even separate) can get you into trouble due to "intent." I don't know if it's one of those "depends who you ask" issues. Or how does the ATF even know what you have in your home (again not assembled). |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 10/19/2023 12:33:12 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By IwasBrian: You purchase the lower and fill out the standard form. That rifle lower is now yours. It is not an SBR lower and at no time during the SBR process do you lose possession ( or use ) of your rifle lower. When your SBR app is approved you will send it somewhere to be engraved ( you are now the manufacturer of the SBR ) and when you get the SBR lower back from the engraver you are free to attach whatever length upper that your local and state laws allow. Is it necessary to engrave a serialized lower? I'll have to read up on how to handle that if so. Hopefully I can find a local smith that can do that instead of having ship it as mailing firearms (as the lower would be) sucks. |
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Posted: 10/19/2023 12:37:20 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By curlyjive: On waiting to purchase the upper....this seems to be a sticking point of some debate if having the upper and lower in the same location (even separate) can get you into trouble due to "intent." I don't know if it's one of those "depends who you ask" issues. Or how does the ATF even know what you have in your home (again not assembled). Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By curlyjive: Originally Posted By Zerlak: No. You literally just buy the lower the way you'd buy any lower. You take that lower and fill out a form 1 online (can do paper if you prefer but E-Form is easy). Submit your Form 1, submit your fingerprints/photos and pay your 200. Wait for your stamp to return, engrave the lower and put your short barrel upper on the lower. You do not need to wait to purchase the upper either. Realistically speaking, a stripped lower can be a "pistol" and as such, can have the short barrel upper to go with it. The only time an FFL holds onto your lower is if you were buying a factory SBR. You get to keep your lower at home with you, while you wait for the Form 1. You're making it more complex on yourself than you need, good sir. On waiting to purchase the upper....this seems to be a sticking point of some debate if having the upper and lower in the same location (even separate) can get you into trouble due to "intent." I don't know if it's one of those "depends who you ask" issues. Or how does the ATF even know what you have in your home (again not assembled). To ATF proof the sequence and provide you with piece of mind just wait until you get the lower back from engraving before you purchase a URG that is less than 16”. At that point the configuration of the URG you purchase will be subject to your local and state laws ( not the federal ATF ). |
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Posted: 10/19/2023 12:39:48 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By curlyjive: Is it necessary to engrave a serialized lower? I'll have to read up on how to handle that if so. Hopefully I can find a local smith that can do that instead of having ship it as mailing firearms (as the lower would be) sucks. |
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Posted: 10/19/2023 12:40:46 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By curlyjive: Is it necessary to engrave a serialized lower? I'll have to read up on how to handle that if so. Hopefully I can find a local smith that can do that instead of having ship it as mailing firearms (as the lower would be) sucks. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By curlyjive: Originally Posted By IwasBrian: You purchase the lower and fill out the standard form. That rifle lower is now yours. It is not an SBR lower and at no time during the SBR process do you lose possession ( or use ) of your rifle lower. When your SBR app is approved you will send it somewhere to be engraved ( you are now the manufacturer of the SBR ) and when you get the SBR lower back from the engraver you are free to attach whatever length upper that your local and state laws allow. Is it necessary to engrave a serialized lower? I'll have to read up on how to handle that if so. Hopefully I can find a local smith that can do that instead of having ship it as mailing firearms (as the lower would be) sucks. Try to find an engraver in state because if you have to ship your approved SBR lower across state lines ( to get engraved ) then there’s other forms that have to process before your SOT sends it out. |
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Posted: 10/19/2023 12:41:50 PM EDT
[#23]
Buy lower, build it with a pistol buffer.
Attach short upper to your PISTOL. Test fire. Form 1 Engrave your (or trust) name, city, state Swap buffer, add stock |
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Posted: 10/19/2023 12:43:40 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By IwasBrian: Try to find an engraver in state because if you have to ship your approved SBR lower across state lines ( to get engraved ) then there’s other forms that have to process before your SOT sends it out. Not sure about that. An approved lower still is not a SBR without a short barrel attached. You can put a 16" upper on it and freely cross state lines. |
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Posted: 10/19/2023 12:50:25 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AR_Dale: Not sure about that. An approved lower still is not a SBR without a short barrel attached. You can put a 16" upper on it and freely cross state lines. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AR_Dale: Originally Posted By IwasBrian: Try to find an engraver in state because if you have to ship your approved SBR lower across state lines ( to get engraved ) then there’s other forms that have to process before your SOT sends it out. Not sure about that. An approved lower still is not a SBR without a short barrel attached. You can put a 16" upper on it and freely cross state lines. I do that when we go over to the Texas side ( just put the P&W Colt upper on it. OP, you can do that ^^ as well if you need to send the approved lower across state lines to get engraved. I always find it much much cheaper to go through my local FFL shop to ship stuff because he can do slow mail. I have to pay for overnight if I can even find a FedEx or UPS hub that will allow me to ship a firearm without possessing a FFL. You may still be able to use USPS for complete rifle though. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 10/19/2023 12:55:25 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By curlyjive: Yes I do overcomplicate things and I really am trying to follow the law. But this is extremely help and I thank you!On waiting to purchase the upper....this seems to be a sticking point of some debate if having the upper and lower in the same location (even separate) can get you into trouble due to "intent." I don't know if it's one of those "depends who you ask" issues. Or how does the ATF even know what you have in your home (again not assembled). Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By curlyjive: Originally Posted By Zerlak: No. You literally just buy the lower the way you'd buy any lower. You take that lower and fill out a form 1 online (can do paper if you prefer but E-Form is easy). Submit your Form 1, submit your fingerprints/photos and pay your 200. Wait for your stamp to return, engrave the lower and put your short barrel upper on the lower. You do not need to wait to purchase the upper either. Realistically speaking, a stripped lower can be a "pistol" and as such, can have the short barrel upper to go with it. The only time an FFL holds onto your lower is if you were buying a factory SBR. You get to keep your lower at home with you, while you wait for the Form 1. You're making it more complex on yourself than you need, good sir. Yes I do overcomplicate things and I really am trying to follow the law. But this is extremely help and I thank you!On waiting to purchase the upper....this seems to be a sticking point of some debate if having the upper and lower in the same location (even separate) can get you into trouble due to "intent." I don't know if it's one of those "depends who you ask" issues. Or how does the ATF even know what you have in your home (again not assembled). ATF won't know and you can technically argue your lower is a PISTOL, which the short upper can be used on. Do what makes you feel happiest though, I personally wouldn't wait, if there's a specific upper I'm wanting. |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 10/19/2023 1:06:04 PM EDT
[#27]
Build or buy a pistol, form 1 it, then add the stock
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PA, USA
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Posted: 10/19/2023 1:09:08 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AR_Dale: Buy lower, build it with a pistol buffer. Attach short upper to your PISTOL. Test fire. Form 1 Engrave your (or trust) name, city, state Swap buffer, add stock This might work for me. Couldn't I just buy a complete pistol lower and after form 1 swap the buffer tube....they will be interchangeable correct? |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 10/19/2023 1:10:16 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AR_Dale: Not sure about that. An approved lower still is not a SBR without a short barrel attached. You can put a 16" upper on it and freely cross state lines. I would think if you are just shipping the lower, you'd be fine but carrier rules for overnight shipping probably still apply so the cost gets high. |
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Posted: 10/19/2023 1:21:33 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By curlyjive: This might work for me. Couldn't I just buy a complete pistol lower and after form 1 swap the buffer tube....they will be interchangeable correct? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By curlyjive: Originally Posted By AR_Dale: Buy lower, build it with a pistol buffer. Attach short upper to your PISTOL. Test fire. Form 1 Engrave your (or trust) name, city, state Swap buffer, add stock This might work for me. Couldn't I just buy a complete pistol lower and after form 1 swap the buffer tube....they will be interchangeable correct? Just keep pistol out of the equation ( if it’s even an option in PA ) since you’re cognizant of the ATF being a bit bipolar in what they do. Form 1’s are being approved on E-File in under a month. |
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Posted: 10/19/2023 1:36:18 PM EDT
[#31]
Originally Posted By curlyjive: This might work for me. Couldn't I just buy a complete pistol lower and after form 1 swap the buffer tube....they will be interchangeable correct? Yes, that is the same. Originally Posted By IwasBrian: Just keep pistol out of the equation ( if it’s even an option in PA ) since you’re cognizant of the ATF being a bit bipolar in what they do. Form 1’s are being approved on E-File in under a month. If he already has a 16" he could put that on to test. I would want to test everything about the lower before I Form 1. My Form1 SBRs were all before Efile, took 3 months. |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 10/19/2023 2:22:06 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By IwasBrian: Just keep pistol out of the equation ( if it’s even an option in PA ) since you’re cognizant of the ATF being a bit bipolar in what they do. Form 1’s are being approved on E-File in under a month. AR Pistols are legal in PA. So I could go about it that way. Order a pistol lower to an FFL and a short complete upper and assemble that. The advantage to that is I can have everything minus the stock and it seems more compliant in terms of intent since the upper is on something that makes it legal. I can form 1 it and then just change the buffer tube, engrave, and add the stock. |
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Posted: 10/19/2023 2:33:25 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By curlyjive: AR Pistols are legal in PA. So I could go about it that way. Order a pistol lower to an FFL and a short complete upper and assemble that. The advantage to that is I can have everything minus the stock and it seems more compliant in terms of intent since the upper is on something that makes it legal. I can form 1 it and then just change the buffer tube, engrave, and add the stock. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By curlyjive: Originally Posted By IwasBrian: Just keep pistol out of the equation ( if it’s even an option in PA ) since you’re cognizant of the ATF being a bit bipolar in what they do. Form 1’s are being approved on E-File in under a month. AR Pistols are legal in PA. So I could go about it that way. Order a pistol lower to an FFL and a short complete upper and assemble that. The advantage to that is I can have everything minus the stock and it seems more compliant in terms of intent since the upper is on something that makes it legal. I can form 1 it and then just change the buffer tube, engrave, and add the stock. These should be near 40% off during their Black Friday sale, https://geissele.com/super-duty-pistol-11-5-5-56mm-luna-black-v2.html |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 10/19/2023 3:04:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: curlyjive]
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By IwasBrian: These should be near 40% off during their Black Friday sale, https://geissele.com/super-duty-pistol-11-5-5-56mm-luna-black-v2.html Damn that would be a great deal. |
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MT, USA
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Posted: 10/19/2023 4:33:37 PM EDT
[#35]
OP is making my head hurt.
If you’re buying a complete lower, you will buy it as a rifle when you complete the 4473. Take it home, to to AFT web page and do “paperwork” for your Form 1. Wait a couple weeks. ATF will email approval. Order upper and assemble. |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 10/19/2023 4:39:05 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gsc0527: OP is making my head hurt. If you’re buying a complete lower, you will buy it as a rifle when you complete the 4473. Take it home, to to AFT web page and do “paperwork” for your Form 1. Wait a couple weeks. ATF will email approval. Order upper and assemble. Sorry bud, the Advils on me.  There were some really helpful options offered and I appreciate it. Yours was echoed before and is perfectly understandable |
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Posted: 10/19/2023 4:56:05 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gsc0527: If you're buying a complete lower, you will buy it as a rifle when you complete the 4473. Without an upper and barrel attached, they cannot legally be considered "rifles" or "pistols". |
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Posted: 10/19/2023 5:01:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: rc2]
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By curlyjive: Is it necessary to engrave a serialized lower? I'll have to read up on how to handle that if so. Hopefully I can find a local smith that can do that instead of having ship it as mailing firearms (as the lower would be) sucks. Since it sounds like you are on the Eastern side of the state Laserworx in Pottstown will engrave while you wait. You will have to schedule an appointment but the engraving only takes a few minutes. |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 10/19/2023 5:36:22 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By rc2: Since it sounds like you are on the Eastern side of the state Laserworx in Pottstown will engrave while you wait. You will have to schedule an appointment but the engraving only takes a few minutes. Good to know thanks! That isn’t far for me. |
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Posted: 10/19/2023 7:15:34 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By KILLERB6: 1. Buy lower. 2. Register lower. 3. Wait for approval. 4. Buy upper. Bingo |
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Posted: 10/19/2023 7:16:33 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By curlyjive: How do you fill out the specific length? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By curlyjive: Originally Posted By KILLERB6: 1. Buy lower. 2. Register. 3. Wait for approval. 4. Buy upper. How do you fill out the specific length? Add 19 inches to the length of your intended barrel. Want to assemble an 11.5" upper? List is as 30.5" |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 10/19/2023 7:22:37 PM EDT
[#42]
If I decide to go the pistol route and form 1 it later. Are any of the assembled pistol lowers sold with a standard buffer tube? If the brace rule is officially overturned I could easily just add the brace without needing to swap tubes or file anything.
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Posted: 10/19/2023 7:30:27 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By curlyjive: If I decide to go the pistol route and form 1 it later. Are any of the assembled pistol lowers sold with a standard buffer tube? If the brace rule is officially overturned I could easily just add the brace without needing to swap tubes or file anything. Do you have any shop or range near you where you can rent a pistol? It will definitely shine enough light ( and smoke ) on you to reconsider ever going shorter than 11.5” unsuppressed with a supersonic rifle round. |
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Posted: 10/19/2023 7:55:52 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By curlyjive: If I decide to go the pistol route and form 1 it later. Are any of the assembled pistol lowers sold with a standard buffer tube? If the brace rule is officially overturned I could easily just add the brace without needing to swap tubes or file anything. You can buy a complete lower with a carbine tube and stock attached, remove the stock and give it to you buddy to have, and then slap on your short upper and have a legal pistol. to play with while you wait for the form 1 to clear to make it an SBR. Then get the stock back and slide it on. |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 10/19/2023 8:10:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: curlyjive]
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By D_Man: Again, even if a lower is assembled with a stock on it, it's an "other firearm", not a rifle nor a pistol, and can be built into either. You can buy a complete lower with a carbine tube and stock attached, remove the stock and give it to you buddy to have, and then slap on your short upper and have a legal pistol. to play with while you wait for the form 1 to clear to make it an SBR. Then get the stock back and slide it on. Yeah I see your point. I guess if the ATF is going to show up on your doorstep because they have obtained the details of the upper and lower you ordered you and you don’t even have the stock at the time and are waiting on a form 1 and they aren’t satisfied, what can you do. ??????? As far as I understand the kind of buffer tube does not factor into pistol vs sbr at all correct? |
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Posted: 10/19/2023 11:32:40 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By curlyjive: Yes I believe constructive possession or intent is what I am concerned about. When buying an assembled lower, do you designate it as an SBR lower specifically at the FFL? There is no technical difference between a rifle and SBR lower correct? Reading all the FAQ is making my head hurt. Now I get the appeal of a pistol w/ Brace before the ATF did what the ATF does. I could go the AR pistol route and hope the brace rule is overturned but it looks like pistols are now using buffer tubes that prevent a brace from being installed if it is "ruled" legal again. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By curlyjive: Originally Posted By JustDaniel: In today’s climate, it is indeed unwise to have a short barreled upper, although unassembled, if you don’t have a registered lower. I believe constructive possession is the term that they like to use. You may want to just purchase the lower, file your paperwork, and wait until you receive the stamp before buying or building the upper. If only looking at PSA stuff, they run sales everyday so it’s not a big deal. You could also purchase a 16” upper with your lower and once your stamp comes through, you can rebarrel it with the shorter barrel that you want or sell the 16” upper and replace it with a shorter one. That way you have a functioning firearm while you’re waiting on the stamp. Yes I believe constructive possession or intent is what I am concerned about. When buying an assembled lower, do you designate it as an SBR lower specifically at the FFL? There is no technical difference between a rifle and SBR lower correct? Reading all the FAQ is making my head hurt. Now I get the appeal of a pistol w/ Brace before the ATF did what the ATF does. I could go the AR pistol route and hope the brace rule is overturned but it looks like pistols are now using buffer tubes that prevent a brace from being installed if it is "ruled" legal again. That excuse on't cut it with the feds. Gut up and read it. It's really not that complicated to stay legal, just the wait and the $200 are pains. |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 10/20/2023 11:50:32 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Strela: That excuse on't cut it with the feds. Gut up and read it. It's really not that complicated to stay legal, just the wait and the $200 are pains. Trying to understand here. If you buy the complete lower and give the stock to someone else so it’s not in your possession then add the upper, all you have is a pistol while you wait for your stamp. Why would that be an issue? Does it matter what kind of buffer tube is on a pistol as long as there is no stock on it? |
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Posted: 10/20/2023 12:25:30 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By curlyjive: Trying to understand here. If you buy the complete lower and give the stock to someone else so it's not in your possession then add the upper, all you have is a pistol while you wait for your stamp. Why would that be an issue? Does it matter what kind of buffer tube is on a pistol as long as there is no stock on it? |
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Posted: 10/20/2023 1:10:30 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gsc0527: OP is making my head hurt. If you’re buying a complete lower, you will buy it as a rifle when you complete the 4473. Take it home, to to AFT web page and do “paperwork” for your Form 1. Wait a couple weeks. ATF will email approval. Order upper and assemble. You are making my head hurt and giving bad info. A lower is not a rifle. A lower is a receiver/frame and marked as other on a 4473. It can be built as anything you want regardless if it has a stock on it. You could remove the stock and build it as a pistol. |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 10/20/2023 2:41:46 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: You are making my head hurt and giving bad info. A lower is not a rifle. A lower is a receiver/frame and marked as other on a 4473. It can be built as anything you want regardless if it has a stock on it. You could remove the stock and build it as a pistol. Yeah this is why it’s a bit confusing to me. You have two different takes on this. On one hand as you said the lower is not an sbr. Take the stock off and put it in someone else’s possession. File form 1 and put the stock back on when I get the stamp. On the other hand would the ATF view that as intent. Depending on what they can know about what someone has purchased they could see you bought a lower with a stock. Heck even just having the other rifle could be considered intent if they want to say I could put the shorter upper on the current rife lower. Feels like a very vague guessing game even if you are trying to be compliant. |
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