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FL, USA
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Posted: 3/3/2024 11:24:20 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CJofFL: That’s not believable considering IWI was already delivering the Carmel in early 2019, 4 years before the neutered 2023 US model without QD barrel and accompanying handguard… https://iwi.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/Small-Arms-Defense-Journal-article.pdf Delivering to who and how many? Other than an IWI rep saying they did in the article, there is no proof that it really entered production. Maybe they sent some T&E models to some small country who decided not to buy. You’d think if anyone was actually buying or using the gun in any quantity over the last 5 years, IWI would be playing it up, plus there would be at least some pictures. Some more information than a 2019 article for a gun rag. Saying it’s all very secret could just be a marketing lie to cover up that the fact that the OG gun ins’t selling. I wouldn’t be surprised if there have been more US spec civilian Carmels sold than original IWI military guns. |
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USA
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Posted: 3/4/2024 7:27:36 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By willi3d: Other than an IWI rep saying they did in the article, there is no proof that it really entered production. One could also read it as… Other than one paid internet influencer’s claim, there is no proof the polymer handguards are limited to 10 prototypes. In all of the pics and videos I’ve seen, the “original” polymer receivers, handguards, and covers appear to be injection molded. |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 3/5/2024 12:15:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: FullAssault]
[#3]
IWI US tried to pass off the Gen 2 galil as the new military standard for IWI before IWI int said that’s false, they said it’s a U.S. SA only order.
The fact IWI still isn’t using the 2x4 tells me it’s another IWI US lie to cover their dumbass decisions. IWI Int from one year ago  YouTube link |
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USA
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Posted: 3/5/2024 4:20:23 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By FullAssault: IWI US tried to pass off the Gen 2 galil as the new military standard for IWI before IWI int said that’s false, they said it’s a U.S. SA only order. The fact IWI still isn’t using the 2x4 tells me it’s another IWI US lie to cover their dumbass decisions. IWI Int from one year ago https://i.imgur.com/vrLFP1q.jpeg YouTube link There's a very specific reason (person) behind the product bastardization going on at IWI-USA. |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 3/5/2024 6:19:17 PM EDT
[#5]
Just a bit of an anecdote, while I don't know about the Carmel in Israel-proper for production numbers, I DO know that the piston AR (the Arad) they make is apparently a regular production item (I assume for military export sales). I know they were being distributed to citizen militia units near the Gaza border after October 7th. Looks like they were factory-fresh, right "off the truck" as you might say.
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VA, USA
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Posted: 3/5/2024 6:36:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: FullAssault]
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Master_Blaster: There's a very specific reason (person) behind the product bastardization going on at IWI-USA. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Master_Blaster: Originally Posted By FullAssault: IWI US tried to pass off the Gen 2 galil as the new military standard for IWI before IWI int said that’s false, they said it’s a U.S. SA only order. The fact IWI still isn’t using the 2x4 tells me it’s another IWI US lie to cover their dumbass decisions. IWI Int from one year ago https://i.imgur.com/vrLFP1q.jpeg YouTube link There's a very specific reason (person) behind the product bastardization going on at IWI-USA. I’m well aware of Jeremy Gresham’s obsession with making everything into a Mlok faux AR. He’s under the delusion people want to run these for run & gun competitions rather than their Gucci built light weight ARs |
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Posted: 3/5/2024 6:55:51 PM EDT
[#7]
Just here to re-state the obvious: it has the US m-lok version handguard? I WILL NEVER BUY.
it has the ORIGINALLY SEEN (or extremely similar) handguard? I will click on buy now. Read this, IWI. Or never read it and be content with dismal sales. Plenty o' piston rifles out there and more coming |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 3/6/2024 12:12:32 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Solo_: Just here to re-state the obvious: it has the US m-lok version handguard? I WILL NEVER BUY. it has the ORIGINALLY SEEN (or extremely similar) handguard? I will click on buy now. Read this, IWI. Or never read it and be content with dismal sales. Plenty o' piston rifles out there and more coming This |
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USA
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Posted: 3/6/2024 1:40:52 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By FullAssault: This I concur. I'll even pay more for a 'special edition' with the original hand guard, lower with integrated grip, and preferably the QD barrel too. |
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USA
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Posted: 3/6/2024 1:57:59 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CJofFL: In all of the pics and videos I’ve seen, the “original” polymer receivers, handguards, and covers appear to be injection molded. Quoting myself here, but everything looks injection molded in the video here from 2019. The point being, injection molding is not suited for "10 prototypes". It's also worth mentioning, the serial number of the Carmel in the video is 45802914.  Israel's New Battle Rifle From IWI: The Carmel |
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USA
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Posted: 3/6/2024 8:38:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: ClickClickBoom1]
[#11]
I too would like the "original" hand guard but honestly anything besides factory rail.
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USA
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Posted: 3/6/2024 10:36:11 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Solo_: Just here to re-state the obvious: it has the US m-lok version handguard? I WILL NEVER BUY. it has the ORIGINALLY SEEN (or extremely similar) handguard? I will click on buy now. Read this, IWI. Or never read it and be content with dismal sales. Plenty o' piston rifles out there and more coming Also in agreement. Just simply won’t purchase one until I can get the real one. What a shame and a really stupid decision. The railed version could have been a part swap further down the road or something. I feel pretty confident in saying that literally NOBODY looked at the original and said to themselves “yeah I don’t know I wish it looked like one of the other dozen piston rifles I don’t want to buy right now - I’ll wait until they fundamentally change the whole appearance of it to buy.” |
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Posted: 3/7/2024 12:09:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Zeebz]
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Solo_: Read this, IWI. Or never read it and be content with dismal sales. Plenty o' piston rifles out there and more coming Yep. They ruined the Galil ACE and Carmel. Plenty of great non AR piston rifles under $2,000 like the Bren 2. If IWI wanted to have a rifle with MLok all over it then bring over the ARAD and you don't even need to have Jeremy Gresham bastardize it. People want these because they want to have their guns look like the military variants, not unique piston rifles that get fucked into looking like another AR variant. |
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USA
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Posted: 3/7/2024 12:49:04 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Zeebz: They ruined the Galil ACE and Carmel. Plenty of great non AR piston rifles under $2,000 like the Bren 2. I feel Springfield ruined the Hellion with the AR grip too. As an alternative, one can look at firearms like the Bren 1, ACR, ARX, etc as they're getting harder to find and more expensive by the day. |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 3/7/2024 4:27:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: FullAssault]
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Zeebz: Yep. They ruined the Galil ACE and Carmel. Plenty of great non AR piston rifles under $2,000 like the Bren 2. If IWI wanted to have a rifle with MLok all over it then bring over the ARAD and you don't even need to have Jeremy Gresham bastardize it. People want these because they want to have their guns look like the military variants, not unique piston rifles that get fucked into looking like another AR variant. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Zeebz: Originally Posted By Solo_: Read this, IWI. Or never read it and be content with dismal sales. Plenty o' piston rifles out there and more coming Yep. They ruined the Galil ACE and Carmel. Plenty of great non AR piston rifles under $2,000 like the Bren 2. If IWI wanted to have a rifle with MLok all over it then bring over the ARAD and you don't even need to have Jeremy Gresham bastardize it. People want these because they want to have their guns look like the military variants, not unique piston rifles that get fucked into looking like another AR variant. They have an AR in their U.S. line up they can tacticool all they want but I’m sure if they brought the ARAD in Gresham would try to find a way to jack it up.  last time I asked about the Carmel OG handguard they doubled down on “The US buyer wants it with the Mlok 2x4” and they have no plans to offer it in any other configuration.
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Posted: 3/7/2024 9:39:04 PM EDT
[#16]
I’m not even set on the original hand guard but I would like something other than a generic MLOK tube.
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PA, USA
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Posted: 3/8/2024 8:00:49 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By FullAssault: They have an AR in their U.S. line up they can tacticool all they want but I’m sure if they brought the ARAD in Gresham would try to find a way to jack it up. last time I asked about the Carmel OG handguard they doubled down on “The US buyer wants it with the Mlok 2x4” and they have no plans to offer it in any other configuration.https://imrmedia.in/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/IWI-Arad-and-Carmel-assault-rifles.jpg I'd be ALL OVER an Arad if they hit the States in their stock form. |
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USA
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Posted: 3/9/2024 11:10:05 PM EDT
[#18]
I do understand the disdain for the new Ace rifles. They certainly don't have as unique of a look. But I think most people would prefer something without fixed sights, and probably would want a longer hand guard. Mlok also seems to be the preference these days. What I don't understand is them replacing the old stock with an AR-15 stock.
From a military weapon collector standpoint it would certainly be disappointing though. |
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Posted: 3/9/2024 11:19:02 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Flogger23m: I do understand the disdain for the new Ace rifles. They certainly don't have as unique of a look. But I think most people would prefer something without fixed sights, and probably would want a longer hand guard. Mlok also seems to be the preference these days. What I don't understand is them replacing the old stock with an AR-15 stock. From a military weapon collector standpoint it would certainly be disappointing though. It's because there's only room for one "practical" rifle. It's the AR15. Everyone else that wants something different, wants something different. With fixed sights, with a wierd stock, wierd handguard, etc. |
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USA
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Posted: 3/10/2024 6:24:29 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Flogger23m: I do understand the disdain for the new Ace rifles. They certainly don't have as unique of a look. But I think most people would prefer something without fixed sights, and probably would want a longer hand guard. Mlok also seems to be the preference these days. What I don't understand is them replacing the old stock with an AR-15 stock. From a military weapon collector standpoint it would certainly be disappointing though. Then why are used Gen 1 Ace‘s commanding a premium on the second hand market. Not a personal attack but I would say anecdotally you’re completely wrong. Nobody is clamoring for the newer models without fixed sights. And there’s no way I would have purchased a Galil Ace as they are being made now. Instagram isn’t full of people flashing their Gen 2 models all modded out either. At least nowhere near the level the Gen 1’s are. I would bet money sales volume is an order of magnitude less from first to second gen and they will be discontinued altogether within a year or two. |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 3/10/2024 3:30:49 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Park-Hit-Run: Then why are used Gen 1 Ace‘s commanding a premium on the second hand market. Not a personal attack but I would say anecdotally you’re completely wrong. Nobody is clamoring for the newer models without fixed sights. And there’s no way I would have purchased a Galil Ace as they are being made now. Instagram isn’t full of people flashing their Gen 2 models all modded out either. At least nowhere near the level the Gen 1’s are. I would bet money sales volume is an order of magnitude less from first to second gen and they will be discontinued altogether within a year or two. Absolutely correct on this one... |
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Posted: 3/10/2024 5:56:38 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jm11513: It's because there's only room for one "practical" rifle. It's the AR15. Everyone else that wants something different, wants something different. With fixed sights, with a wierd stock, wierd handguard, etc. Very true. If you think about it, the design themes that are commercially appealing involve a round or round-ish handguard: MP5SD Uzi Mk12 SPR Ace Gen 1 Old style toob handguard ARs We put up with 2x4 MLOK stuff on our fighting ARs but don’t need to buy that style for every gun in the safe. I admittedly have MLOK on my PTR91 but that’s only because I refuse to pay hundreds of dollars for a wide tropical handguard. |
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Posted: 3/10/2024 6:21:34 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MikeMilligan: Very true. If you think about it, the design themes that are commercially appealing involve a round or round-ish handguard: MP5SD Uzi Mk12 SPR Ace Gen 1 Old style toob handguard ARs We put up with 2x4 MLOK stuff on our fighting ARs but don’t need to buy that style for every gun in the safe. I admittedly have MLOK on my PTR91 but that’s only because I refuse to pay hundreds of dollars for a wide tropical handguard. Hell, even ar15's with full length mlok handguards are at least octagonal. The one on the carmel is just a bad design |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 3/13/2024 6:12:41 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jm11513: Hell, even ar15's with full length mlok handguards are at least octagonal. The one on the carmel is just a bad design I totally agree. What were they thinking? I own a Carmel but only because I got a smoking deal on a used, but basically new, one at my LGS. Even the back story on why it was in the shop was enough for me to pick it up. That said, there is no way I would have paid full price for one with the HG the way it is now. Im holding out that IWI or maybe Manticore Arms will come to our rescue with the handguard that everyone wants. |
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USA
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Posted: 3/13/2024 10:02:29 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ARguy: Im holding out that IWI or maybe Manticore Arms will come to our rescue with the handguard that everyone wants. Also the grip. Why in the world would they alter the design to take AR grips? I mean I understand the idea but what they should have done is replicate the original design of the grip and include it with the rifle. Like a one to one replica. And then if you REALLY want a B5 grip on it then fine. But now what do we even do to make it correct? Some company has to MJF print proper grips and sell them for $100 each and they will never be a proper injection molded factory part. So dumb. |
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USA
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Posted: 4/9/2024 9:21:27 PM EDT
[#26]
I just found this review and the guy had the exact same issues I had: wouldn’t cycle cheap, steel cased .223 and like me, he over adjusted his gas and shot the knob down range. I don’t feel quite as dumb having a Carmel that won’t run.
He did say that it was flawless with higher quality ammo and even fine with cheap ammo AFTER firing a bit of the quality ammo.  Israel's New Battle Rifle The IWI Carmel FIRST Shots |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 4/10/2024 7:44:07 AM EDT
[#27]
Hey Sven,
Any movement on the hand guard project for the Carmel? Thanks. |
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USA
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Posted: 4/10/2024 7:46:31 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Citizen904: I just found this review and the guy had the exact same issues I had: wouldn’t cycle cheap, steel cased .223 and like me, he over adjusted his gas and shot the knob down range. I don’t feel quite as dumb having a Carmel that won’t run. He did say that it was flawless with higher quality ammo and even fine with cheap ammo AFTER firing a bit of the quality ammo.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVx4PbqPa9gT7 seemed to have trouble shooting steel cased, or at least hard primers. Must be an IWI thing. |
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USA
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Posted: 4/10/2024 1:45:42 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Citizen904: I just found this review and the guy had the exact same issues I had: wouldn’t cycle cheap, steel cased .223 and like me, he over adjusted his gas and shot the knob down range. I don’t feel quite as dumb having a Carmel that won’t run. He did say that it was flawless with higher quality ammo and even fine with cheap ammo AFTER firing a bit of the quality ammo. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVx4PbqPa9gHe should stick to sneaker reviews. |
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UT, USA
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Posted: 4/11/2024 9:51:19 AM EDT
[#30]
Had a Carmel, cerakoted it FDE to see if I could make it look better with the 2x4 handguard. I think it looked better, but some not so promising initial accuracy results, and it being bulky and over 8lbs, I ended up selling it at a loss to fund other projects. If it had the original style handguard I probably would of been more inclined to keep it and SBR it.
Did a basic review on it https://youtu.be/n0NoWH0YX_k?si=UAtNHv5alEvDHRQB |
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USA
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Posted: 4/21/2024 8:50:07 PM EDT
[#31]
First, why is there no IWI subforum? They've earned it by now.
I almost bought a Carmel this month, but stumbled into a smoking deal on a 20" Tavor 7 and got that instead. (Side note: if they release a gen3 5.56 Tavor with the 7's improvements, sign me up.) Still hoping for a locally used Carmel deal, but we'll see. I concur with the crowd that the handguard aesthetic is suboptimal. If they had tried to maintain the original Carmel profile while providing an MLOK handguard, I feel like that would have gone over much better. TBH, though, the bigger concern is the weight. 8.1 lbs is just very chunky compared to a SCAR 16S, and it's about as heavy as a G36 with optics. I feel like IWI found this thing uncompetitive in the foreign military export market and the US commercial market became the fallback. (Compare this to the Arad, which seems somewhat more successful, and thus has yet to make it here.) There's a lot worse sins than making an ugly gun that you tried to optimize for functionality, though. |
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