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Posted: 10/11/2023 3:03:22 PM EDT
 Seriously, what FFL would ship this to another FFL? I hope their customer gets his money back without a fight. I already turned the gun over to the local Police. |
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Posted: 10/11/2023 3:07:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: ScoutH57]
[#1]
That doesn’t look obliterated just corroded.
Can probably etch it |
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Posted: 10/11/2023 3:10:11 PM EDT
[#2]
Manufactured prior to 1968?
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Posted: 10/11/2023 3:13:17 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ScoutH57: That doesn’t look obliterated just corroded. Can probably etch it It’s totally obliterated. You can see the tool marks. It will be reported to local ATF by the police.. If mr ATF can tell me what the serial number is in writing that he sees, I’ll get back and transfer it to the buyer. But that’s not going to happen. |
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Posted: 10/11/2023 3:13:49 PM EDT
[#4]
I agree, it doesn't look purposely defaced, just old and worn.
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ND, USA
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Posted: 10/11/2023 3:15:58 PM EDT
[#5]
I already turned the gun over to the local Police.
In other words, you stole the persons property. |
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Posted: 10/11/2023 3:16:46 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Princeton: Manufactured prior to 1968? Year of MFG doesn’t matter if it had a serial number which was obliterated. No way to date it regardless. |
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Posted: 10/11/2023 3:19:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: wookie1562]
[#7]
ETA - answered |
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Posted: 10/11/2023 3:20:17 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DogtownTom: I agree, it doesn't look purposely defaced, just old and worn. Ok, so what are the numbers? Email me [email protected] and I’ll send you the high res pic. |
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Posted: 10/11/2023 3:20:57 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mindless: I already turned the gun over to the local Police. In other words, you stole the persons property. How long have you had your FFL? |
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Posted: 10/11/2023 3:21:44 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mindless: I already turned the gun over to the local Police. In other words, you stole the persons property. FFS. Go get your FFL then come back and tell us how to be an FFL. Your "you stole the persons property" is a limp dick response to the OP. If you had any clue as to ADCO's reputation you wouldn't have written such a stupid, childish and wholly ignorant post. |
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Posted: 10/11/2023 3:29:30 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bigbore: Ok, so what are the numbers? Email me [email protected] and I’ll send you the high res pic. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bigbore: Originally Posted By DogtownTom: I agree, it doesn't look purposely defaced, just old and worn. Ok, so what are the numbers? Email me [email protected] and I’ll send you the high res pic. I wouldn't hazard a guess by looking at Hubble quality photos.  If its truly and purposely defaced, its illegal to possess by you or your customer. You can't undo that. I've used chalk and china markers to try and get a readable serial#. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. |
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Posted: 10/11/2023 3:32:32 PM EDT
[#12]
 The SN on the paperwork is 245655 |
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Posted: 10/11/2023 3:33:35 PM EDT
[#13]
Originally Posted By bigbore: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/12678/20231011_122331-2987327.jpg Seriously, what FFL would ship this to another FFL? I hope their customer gets his money back without a fight. I already turned the gun over to the local Police. Sometimes when this happens and it's a slow day, I invoke what I call the shit's and giggle's policy, as follows. "Hello, mailing FFL, this is ABC from XYZ gun shop. We just received a firearm from you yesterday and were spot checking some of our paperwork randomly, can you confirm the disposition information of the firearm you mailed us if you've got a moment." It's much more hilarious via email when they simply respond with "we didn't mail you a firearm / don't have info about that firearm / sorry can't help you." Sometimes it's a morale booster to chuckle at the stupidity of others. |
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Posted: 10/11/2023 4:40:32 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AGraham: Sometimes when this happens and it's a slow day, I invoke what I call the shit's and giggle's policy, as follows. "Hello, mailing FFL, this is ABC from XYZ gun shop. We just received a firearm from you yesterday and were spot checking some of our paperwork randomly, can you confirm the disposition information of the firearm you mailed us if you've got a moment." It's much more hilarious via email when they simply respond with "we didn't mail you a firearm / don't have info about that firearm / sorry can't help you." Sometimes it's a morale booster to chuckle at the stupidity of others. Do this and attach the above photo. |
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Posted: 10/11/2023 5:40:06 PM EDT
[#15]
Dumb question... is it possible that there is another SN on the frame? I agree it looks intentionally defaced, but stranger things have materialized over years of abuse.
Guess I'm looking for - where the hell did the disposing FFL get his number from?? |
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Posted: 10/11/2023 5:43:03 PM EDT
[#16]
Was there mfg/maker info engraved on the gun?
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Posted: 10/11/2023 5:51:13 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bigbore: I already turned the gun over to the local Police. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bigbore: I already turned the gun over to the local Police. The problem with that solution is you fucked over your customer. Originally Posted By bigbore: The SN on the paperwork is 245655 Perhaps next time call ATF first and see what they say. Especially if you have SN info. I know for a fact ATF has authorized SNs to be re-applied. If there is MFG/Maker info they might know if that was a factory SN or not. Also, going to ATF allows then to go after the FFL who shipped it. |
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Posted: 10/11/2023 5:55:10 PM EDT
[#18]
Looks like 397571
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 10/11/2023 6:00:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: number40Fan]
[#19]
With the shit you've been through, I don't blame you. Maybe with the image flipped, it might read what was stated.
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Posted: 10/11/2023 6:07:26 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By number40Fan: With the shit you've been through, I don't blame you. Maybe with the image flipped, it might read what was stated. https://i.ibb.co/FskSWmh/1.jpg That's not the orientation of the original serial number, so flipped could not be correct. |
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Posted: 10/11/2023 6:12:05 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RenegadeX: The problem with that solution is you fucked over your customer. Perhaps next time call ATF first and see what they say. Especially if you have SN info. I know for a fact ATF has authorized SNs to be re-applied. If there is MFG/Maker info they might know if that was a factory SN or not. Also, going to ATF allows then to go after the FFL who shipped it. If the customer is fucked, its because of the guy who sold it to him, not me. I immediately gave the gun to the local police. They will contact ATF for guidance. If ATF says it's fine, I'll get the gun back. If ATF says it's contraband, not my problem. The gun is an early S&W model 10. I know ATF has allowed obliterated serial numbers to be reapplied on historical guns. If they say to reapply a SN to this, I'll have the police send it back to the FFL who sent it to me to do so. |
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Posted: 10/11/2023 6:18:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: RenegadeX]
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bigbore: If the customer is fucked, its because of the guy who sold it to him, not me. What does the first "F" in FFL stand for? All I am saying is call ATF, not the local police. Gun gets seized by ATF, customer has a stronger legal case then you deciding to give it to the local police. Does your IOI not give you a business card with name/number on it and tell you to call if you have any questions? Clearly you questioned the SN, so the first call right then/there should be to your IOI. You missed an opportunity to do right by your customer all while still obeying the law. |
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Posted: 10/11/2023 6:29:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: bigbore]
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RenegadeX: What does the first "F" in FFL stand for? All I am saying is call ATF, not the local police. Gun gets seized by ATF, customer has a stronger legal case then you deciding to give it to the local police. You missed an opportunity to do right by your customer all while still obeying the law. I've been dealing with the same local cops for 20yrs. There is a new ATF agent every 2 or 3yrs. and I have never had the same IOI twice. I run everything through the local police. If ATF says it ok, I'll get it back from the police no problem. Last year a non licensed person shipped me a pistol for transfer through the post office via priority mail. That put me in possession of an illegally shipped firearm. I gave that to the local police who called the ATF and asked what to do. ATF person confirmed it was shipped illegally but then said they don't care how it was shipped and to go ahead with the transfer. If anything happens with that gun down the road, I have it in a police report that the ATF said they didn't care. Do you think an ATF agent would ever put it in writing that he told me to go ahead and transfer it? The local police have a stack of reports like this with me. If I have a doubt - there is no more doubt and it goes to them. |
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Posted: 10/11/2023 6:45:15 PM EDT
[#24]
My take is it looks deliberately defaced, because of how the marks are concentrated on the numbers. If the gun had been used as a hammer (entirely possible), it seems to me there would be impact marks more scattered.
With the shit ADCO has been through, I can totally understand being extra cautious. |
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Posted: 10/11/2023 7:22:14 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bigbore: .....Last year a non licensed person shipped me a pistol for transfer through the post office via priority mail. That put me in possession of an illegally shipped firearm.... Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bigbore: .....Last year a non licensed person shipped me a pistol for transfer through the post office via priority mail. That put me in possession of an illegally shipped firearm.... What crime do you think you committed? None. Is the firearm somehow tainted? No. Unregistered machine gun? Different story, because that would be a felony to possess. I gave that to the local police who called the ATF and asked what to do. ATF person confirmed it was shipped illegally but then said they don't care how it was shipped and to go ahead with the transfer. Did you record the acquisition before handing it to the police? You should have and recorded the disposition to the PD as well. I get at least two guns a month shipped to me in a USPS FRB. |
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Posted: 10/11/2023 7:28:03 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DogtownTom: Did you record the acquisition before handing it to the police? You should have and recorded the disposition to the PD as well. Yes |
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Posted: 10/11/2023 7:44:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: bigbore]
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DogtownTom: What crime do you think you committed? None. Is the firearm somehow tainted? No. Unregistered machine gun? Different story, because that would be a felony to possess. Here's the deal. I have learned much going through discovery regarding my lawsuit over the last year. Keep in mind I'm being sued with no wrong doing. No mistakes made on my end. FFL transfers a firearm they received after it was shipped illegally. 2 days later that guy kills his family with that gun. Police find a $30 charge on his credit card statement from that FFL. Police see the transfer was completed and the 4473 fill out at FFL all legit. Police ask to see FFLs A&D book and who it's logged in from. Police ask how and when it was shipped. Shipper supplies the USPS receipt and tracking info. The guy is found guilty, case closed, police report/records are made public. His sister in law hires a law firm that is a spotlight donor to the Brady campaign in preparation for a civil suit. They get a hold of the police report. They see the gun was received and transferred by an FFL even though it was shipped illegally. FFL is sued because he knew federal law was broke but transferred the firearm any how. FFL then spends thousands of dollars even though the insurance company who just dropped him settles quick because they know with illegal shipping the case is lost. |
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WI, USA
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Posted: 10/11/2023 7:49:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: NAM]
[#28]
It's sad that we even need to have this discussion. I feel that calling the cops is bullshit, but I 100% sympathize and understand why the OP did so. It's a sad state of affairs for sure.
Eta: I'm a lowly C&R, and I honestly don't know what I'd do if I received something like that. Calling the cops would probably not be very high on my list, but maybe in this day in age, it should be. |
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Posted: 10/11/2023 8:14:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: ar556223]
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mindless: I already turned the gun over to the local Police. In other words, you stole the persons property. Username checks out? 
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Posted: 10/11/2023 8:21:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: DogtownTom]
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bigbore: ....His sister in law hires a law firm that is a spotlight donor to the Brady campaign in preparation for a civil suit. They get a hold of the police report. They see the gun was received and transferred by an FFL even though it was shipped illegally. FFL is sued because he knew federal law was broke but transferred the firearm any how. FFL then spends thousands of dollars even though the insurance company who just dropped him settles quick because they know with illegal shipping the case is lost. That's not the reason you would be sued. The anti gunners will file a lawsuit against a dealer anytime they think there is the remotest possibility of standing. You would be sued for negligence in transferring the firearm. The SIL might bring up the way the gun was shipped to you, but it's immaterial to the act of you transferring the firearm. But that won't keep them from claiming it is. Do you run a criminal background check on those who come into your store to sell you guns? Why not? The seller could be a prohibited person and you would be buying a firearm from someone who possessed it illegally. Again, why are you not running a background check on people you buy guns from? If a seller ships you a gun legally, following USPS regs.......do you run a BG check on that seller? Why not? How do you know the seller was not a prohibited person? How do you know the gun wasn't stolen? You ever receive a transfer from a licensee, who didn't include a copy of his FFL in that USPS box? I have. What I'm getting at is quite often you don't know anything about the seller and whether he is a licensee, nonlicensee, a prohibited person or whether the firearm is stolen. You'll shit your pants when you find out how many dealers and manufacturers have never heard of a USPS Form 1508. Yet they mail handguns every day. Illegally. In full violation of federal law and USPS regs. Why do you not demand a copy of that Form 1508? |
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Posted: 10/11/2023 8:43:29 PM EDT
[#31]
Why not just return it to the original FFL and let them deal with it?
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Posted: 10/11/2023 8:44:40 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Wespe: Why not just return it to the original FFL and let them deal with it? Felony to ship it. |
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SC, USA
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Posted: 10/12/2023 7:16:25 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Wespe: Why not just return it to the original FFL and let them deal with it? 100% |
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Posted: 10/12/2023 6:33:52 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bladeandbarrel: 100% Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bladeandbarrel: Originally Posted By Wespe: Why not just return it to the original FFL and let them deal with it? 100% What part of "Felony to ship it" did you not understand? Heck, it's a felony to just possess it. |
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Posted: 10/16/2023 10:22:35 AM EDT
[#35]
Update.
The gun does have a drawing number on cylinder There are 4 ATF agents from 4 different offices/levels working on this. The gun is still at my local police station. Local branch general/inspector ATF dude said it's an obliterated SN on the frame and it cannot go back in circulation. The area ATF criminal investigator said there is a number on the cylinder, run an e check and if it comes back clean go ahead and transfer it to the customer. Inspector dude said do what the criminal investigator said. The shipper contacted their local ATF branch who was sent pictures and we are waiting on a response. I sent pics and question to my IOI and am still waiting on a response. |
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Posted: 10/17/2023 8:54:17 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bigbore: The area ATF criminal investigator said there is a number on the cylinder, run an e check and if it comes back clean go ahead and transfer it to the customer. I would want that in writing as a CYA, but I'm assuming you're smart enough to know that already given recent events. |
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Posted: 10/18/2023 4:57:17 PM EDT
[#37]
Received this response from my IOI after they looked at all the pictures.
You can destroy it per ATF guidelines, maintain photos of the destroyed pieces and record the firearm “destroyed” as the disposition in A&D record book. |
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Posted: 10/18/2023 5:07:55 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bigbore: Received this response from my IOI after they looked at all the pictures. So you get to store that documentation until you go out of business? No thanks ATF. Come pick it up and you destroy it. |
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Posted: 10/18/2023 5:15:28 PM EDT
[#39]
I'm curious as to why you would put all of this up on the internet?
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Posted: 10/18/2023 5:20:27 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DogtownTom: So you get to store that documentation until you go out of business? No thanks ATF. Come pick it up and you destroy it. Sylvania PD will destroy it and keep the record of such. I just have to log it out to them. |
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Posted: 10/18/2023 5:21:58 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TradWoodsman: I'm curious as to why you would put all of this up on the internet? How did you handle the last obliterated serial number under your FFL? |
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Posted: 10/18/2023 5:25:43 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bigbore: How did you handle the last obliterated serial number under your FFL? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bigbore: Originally Posted By TradWoodsman: I'm curious as to why you would put all of this up on the internet? How did you handle the last obliterated serial number under your FFL? I'm not an FFL. I have never handled an obliterated serial number. But you probably know that.  It seems like you had a procedure....contact ATF, turn gun over to law enforcement....is there a part in the book that says "post up a confidential transaction on the internet, complete with pictures"? |
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Posted: 10/18/2023 5:35:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Ringsting]
[#43]
This has been an interesting read so far! Thank you for posting it.
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Posted: 10/18/2023 5:50:18 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TradWoodsman: I'm not an FFL. I have never handled an obliterated serial number. But you probably know that. It seems like you had a procedure....contact ATF, turn gun over to law enforcement....is there a part in the book that says "post up a confidential transaction on the internet, complete with pictures"? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TradWoodsman: Originally Posted By bigbore: Originally Posted By TradWoodsman: I'm curious as to why you would put all of this up on the internet? How did you handle the last obliterated serial number under your FFL? I'm not an FFL. I have never handled an obliterated serial number. But you probably know that. It seems like you had a procedure....contact ATF, turn gun over to law enforcement....is there a part in the book that says "post up a confidential transaction on the internet, complete with pictures"? What confidential information was in the post? |
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Posted: 10/18/2023 5:56:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: DogtownTom]
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TradWoodsman: I'm not an FFL. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TradWoodsman: Originally Posted By bigbore: Originally Posted By TradWoodsman: I'm curious as to why you would put all of this up on the internet? How did you handle the last obliterated serial number under your FFL? I'm not an FFL. That's obvious. I have never handled an obliterated serial number. But you probably know that. Get your FFL. Discover how many felonies head your way. Profit. It seems like you had a procedure....contact ATF, turn gun over to law enforcement. That's not just an FFL "procedure"....it damn well better be yours as well. Possession of a firearm with an obliterated or defaced serial number is a federal crime and a felony in every state. ...is there a part in the book that says "post up a confidential transaction on the internet, complete with pictures"? He didn't post a damn thing that is "confidential transaction" information. Not the name of the seller. Not the name of shipping FFL. Not the name of the buyer. He posted a photo of a GUN WITH OBLITERATED SERIAL NUMBER!!!!! What part of the book says "invent shit that didn't happen"? Good grief. |
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Posted: 10/25/2023 1:03:47 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TradWoodsman: I'm not an FFL. I have never handled an obliterated serial number. But you probably know that. It seems like you had a procedure....contact ATF, turn gun over to law enforcement....is there a part in the book that says "post up a confidential transaction on the internet, complete with pictures"? You’re out of your depth and your comment is worthless noise. The title of this thread could be directed at you. |
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SC, USA
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Posted: 10/25/2023 7:26:32 AM EDT
[#47]
https://casetext.com/case/united-states-v-price-2098
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Posted: 10/25/2023 7:53:02 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bladeandbarrel: https://casetext.com/case/united-states-v-price-2098 I guess you dont have an FFL either. If your compliance inspector finds a gun with an obliterated serial number, you'll lose your license and go bankrupt fighting it in court. Good luck. Send me a link to your givesendgo, I'll be in for $1K. |
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Posted: 10/25/2023 7:56:39 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bladeandbarrel: https://casetext.com/case/united-states-v-price-2098 Yeah it is gonna be ugly for a few years while Bruen gets sorted out. Crazy logic though in that one on the felon count. That one is District Court though so not binding Case Law yet. |
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Posted: 10/25/2023 7:56:58 AM EDT
[#50]
Is it a Model 10 or a Model 1905 Hand Ejector?
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