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Posted: 4/4/2024 6:32:18 PM EDT
About a month ago, I bought 2000 pcs of Winchester #41 primers from Cabellas. Loaded up a bunch of 5.56 and 300BO. 5 out of 50 pieces popped tiny pinholes on the edge of the primer and damaged the bolt faces on 2 rifles. These loads were NOT showing any signs of over pressure and were a standard load I've used many times before. The primers were still firm in the pockets and the pockets showed no signs of damage, and there was no sign of ejector wipe.
I spent about 30 minutes with my metallurgist friend (and firearms expert) on the phone and texting pics trying to daignose the issue and he was confident these failures were not from overpressure or any other defects, but most likely caused by improper annealing of the primer cups after stamping. These failures were NOT what you normally see from overpressure piercing at the center of the primer. The lot number of the primers is WCL23F002-740 Images coming shortly. |
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USA
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Posted: 4/4/2024 6:44:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Grumple]
[#1]
Gheesh. I purchased a few k of these on sale.
Waiting for pics and updates from winchester when you contact them. |
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Posted: 4/4/2024 6:51:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2grimjim]
[#2]
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PCN
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Posted: 4/4/2024 7:14:45 PM EDT
[#3]
Email and pics sent to Winchester. I'm pissed that I have 2 bolts with the bolt face trashed from this. One is my Sig MCX, the othe is an cheepie AR. And now I have 2,000 pieces of ammo that I need to strip apart.
I'll never buy Winchester primers again. |
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SC, USA
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Posted: 4/4/2024 7:46:35 PM EDT
[#4]
Am I the only one that can't see the pics?
Bought 5k from bass pro recently, will compare lot numbers. |
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PCN
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Posted: 4/4/2024 7:50:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2grimjim]
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DVCNick: Am I the only one that can't see the pics? Bought 5k from bass pro recently, will compare lot numbers. Pics are Google Drive links. I don't know what going on, I'll see if I can figure out why they won't display normally. If you right click on select in "Open in a New Window" or "Open in a New Tab", the link works. |
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SC, USA
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Posted: 4/4/2024 8:02:45 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 2grimjim: Pics are Google Drive links. I don't know what going on, I'll see if I can figure out why they won't display normally. If you right click on select in "Open in a New Window" or "Open in a New Tab", the link works. Thanks that worked. Interesting. I can't say I've ever seen a primer do that regardless of how over pressure it might have been anyway, but like you said they don't look flat. Yeah, I'd be contacting Winchester too and see what they say. I'd pay 60 bucks for a new AR bolt before I'd pull 2k rounds though... I'd just shoot them up in the bold that's already porked and call it a day. Sucks about the MCX bolt though, that does look beyond normal wear to me. Initial spot check of my lot number shows a slightly different one... I'll check the rest and would be interested in Winchester's response. |
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SC, USA
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Posted: 4/4/2024 8:06:37 PM EDT
[#7]
Checking lot numbers, I also just found that one of my 1000pc boxes is short one tray and only has 900 in it.
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Posted: 4/4/2024 8:10:04 PM EDT
[#8]
The load for the 300BO was 19.5gr Lil'Gun, Hornady 125gr FMJ, brass was once fired brass from Top Brass. Like I said, I've used this load for 1000's of rounds and never had an issue with CCI primers.
10% fallout for bad primers is really bad. |
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Posted: 4/4/2024 8:12:08 PM EDT
[#9]
I’ve seen pictures of Winchester primers doing this in the past and that’s why they generally have a crappy reputation. That’s also why those were probably on sale, unfortunately.
I’ve skipped over buying ANY Winchester primers because of their reputation. Sorry for your issues OP, I hope they make it right. |
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Posted: 4/4/2024 8:14:16 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DVCNick: Thanks that worked. Interesting. I can't say I've ever seen a primer do that regardless of how over pressure it might have been anyway, but like you said they don't look flat. Yeah, I'd be contacting Winchester too and see what they say. I'd pay 60 bucks for a new AR bolt before I'd pull 2k rounds though... I'd just shoot them up in the bold that's already porked and call it a day. Sucks about the MCX bolt though, that does look beyond normal wear to me. Initial spot check of my lot number shows a slightly different one... I'll check the rest and would be interested in Winchester's response. Yeah, I thought about just buying another cheap bolt for the AR, but the bolt for the Sig MCX ain't no $60 part. That's what relly burns my bacon. |
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SC, USA
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Posted: 4/4/2024 8:43:56 PM EDT
[#11]
I'd seriously like to know their response when you get it.
If they come back with a range of bad lot numbers or something, you've saved me some headache, possibly. Otherwise I guess I should load some of these up and see if they are behaving, in a regular AR obviously. Either way thanks for posting... this is a new one on me. |
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Posted: 4/4/2024 9:02:00 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DVCNick: I'd seriously like to know their response when you get it. If they come back with a range of bad lot numbers or something, you've saved me some headache, possibly. Otherwise I guess I should load some of these up and see if they are behaving, in a regular AR obviously. Either way thanks for posting... this is a new one on me. 40 years of reloading and I've never seen primers blow holes in the edge like this, and nowhere close to over-pressure. I don't even think pistol primers at rifle pressures would do this. The "normal" way primers fail from pressure is right where the firing pin impacts. As soon as I hear back from Winchester, I'll update. I'll give them a few days to reply to the email, and if I don't hear back, I'll blow up their phone. I don't know if they'll 'fess up to shipping defective primers, or issue a recall. We'll see. My biggest fear is that I get a primer the completely ruptures around the edge. That could be messy, and a possible trip to the ER. BTW, my friend that I first sent the pics to called me back in about 5 minutes and said I needed to contact Winchester. He's a walking encyclopedia on firearms engineering and history. He said he's never seen a failure like this either. I'm not going to discuss who he is, but if you've ever watched any of the Forgotten Weapons videos on YouTube, a lot of the crazy and obsscure automatic firearms were on loan to Ian from my friend. |
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Posted: 4/4/2024 9:02:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: borderpatrol]
[#13]
Winchester primers did the same thing when they switch from nickel plated to copper primers over twenty years ago. What is old, is new again...
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Posted: 4/4/2024 9:03:18 PM EDT
[#14]
In for load data....
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USA
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Posted: 4/4/2024 9:04:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Trollslayer]
[#15]
It is my impression the "bad reputation" to which you refer is from firing pins piercing the center of the primers by people shooting fairly HOT loads not from, ... what ever this is,... failed primer cup edges.
Relative to those pierced primers, I have had none of that and have used only Winchester primers since I started shooting 223. Having said all that crap, this is terrible! I, too, await Winchester's response. Did you email include a monetary claim for bolt replacements? |
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Posted: 4/4/2024 9:10:49 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By borderpatrol: In for load data.... Posted above... here it is again: 300 BO 19.5gr Hodgen Lil'gun Hornady #30196 125gr FMJ projo Top Brass once fired mixed brass I've used this load for years without issue in 3 rifles. There was also a few subsonics, but I only shot a few. These were the following load: 10.0gr Hodgen Lil'gun Berry's 220gr Top Brass |
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Posted: 4/4/2024 9:12:09 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Trollslayer: It is my impression the "bad reputation" to which you refer is from firing pins piercing the center of the primers by people shooting fairly HOT loads not from, ... what ever this is,... failed primer cup edges. Relative to those pierced primers, I have had none of that and have used only Winchester primers since I started shooting 223. Having said all that crap, this is terrible! I, too, await Winchester's response. Did you email include a monetary claim for bolt replacements? You bet I made a damage claim. |
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USA
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Posted: 4/4/2024 9:19:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: smokinghole]
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DVCNick: Checking lot numbers, I also just found that one of my 1000pc boxes is short one tray and only has 900 in it. That happened to me too. I got 4900 primers not 5000. I have like 10K CCIs ahead if these before I even consider using these win41s. I am interested if others are experiencing the same. Need to check my lot#s. |
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Posted: 4/4/2024 9:55:56 PM EDT
[#19]
I had some Winchester LPs do that to a Glock 21 I have.
This was few years ago. |
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Posted: 4/4/2024 11:51:13 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DVCNick: Am I the only one that can't see the pics? Bought 5k from bass pro recently, will compare lot numbers. |
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USA
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Posted: 4/5/2024 1:56:54 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By borderpatrol: Winchester primers did the same thing when they switch from nickel plated to copper primers over twenty years ago. What is old, is new again... Yep. Stopped using Winchester primers back in 2018 when I had some LRMs do this. |
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Posted: 4/5/2024 2:07:26 AM EDT
[#22]
Same damn problem as 2013-2014.
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IA, USA
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Posted: 4/5/2024 3:14:55 AM EDT
[#23]
WIN is known for this. They have replaced bolts and all primers in the past. But my guess is they will not this time around.
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KS, USA
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Posted: 4/5/2024 9:52:44 AM EDT
[#24]
In for more info on this, picked up probably 15k #41 & WSPs recently.
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Posted: 4/5/2024 10:25:14 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tommee-boy-72: WIN is known for this. They have replaced bolts and all primers in the past. But my guess is they will not this time around. If Winchester doesn't respond, I have no problem filing a small claims lawsuit against them since the damages are less than $7,500. I would have to file against Cabella's since this is where I purchased these primers, but I would include Winchester as a co-defendant. It only costs $70 to file, and they have to respond to the court. I've used the small claims process before and it works pretty damn well at getting big businesses to stop blowing you off and resolve whatever your dealing with. |
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USA
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Posted: 4/5/2024 10:43:04 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By borderpatrol: Winchester primers did the same thing when they switch from nickel plated to copper primers over twenty years ago. What is old, is new again... I was thinking the same thing. |
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AR, USA
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Posted: 4/5/2024 11:10:22 AM EDT
[#27]
Geez... I found 1K of these, thankfully at the bottom of the stack. Bought them at Bass Pro in Rogers, AR. around the first of this year. All others have shorter lot numbers like VBL224G
Thanks for the heads up |
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USA
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Posted: 4/5/2024 11:32:10 AM EDT
[#28]
Great. I knew I should not have been lured in by the price, mine are Lot #….738
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UT, USA
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Posted: 4/5/2024 11:43:49 AM EDT
[#29]
Well I have one box from that lot. Thanks for the heads up OP.
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Posted: 4/5/2024 12:16:25 PM EDT
[#30]
ost, loaded about 200 mild blasting 62gr with these around Jan2024. Thanks for the info OP
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LA, USA
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Posted: 4/5/2024 12:47:05 PM EDT
[#31]
Wonder if those primers were made in Mississippi?
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 4/5/2024 12:57:05 PM EDT
[#32]
Thanks for the post, Friend.
First I've heard of this. I have a few thousand also from Cabela's within the last year. Different lot number. Normally I use the oldest first but in this case, I think I'll load my next batch with these and see. I use Winchester primers almost exclusively. There may be some vintage primers back in my stash that are nickel, but all of my current and other ready loads going back to 2019 are Winchester unplated brass primers. From the area of the burn-through, I'd say they had a run of thin cups material. When they punch the cup out of a flat piece of brass, the "edge" because of the way the punch forms it turns out thinner than sides or bottom. Oops. |
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Posted: 4/5/2024 1:22:42 PM EDT
[#33]
Possible a chipped die set in the punch process ran a nice fat scratch down the side of the cup, and made it thin in that area.
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Posted: 4/5/2024 1:25:30 PM EDT
[#34]
Well hell. I have a few k of those on my shelves. I'll have to check lot numbers now.
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Posted: 4/5/2024 1:33:52 PM EDT
[#35]
Sub'd. I just loaded up a number of 5.56 using #41's, though my lot numbers were all in the wcl22 series. I just ran some 300blk loads using Lil gun and 125's very similar to yours, but used CCI primers.
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Posted: 4/5/2024 1:50:25 PM EDT
[#36]
Interesting...
I was able to get a good measurement on the cup thickness on one of the defective primers. Not what I expected. It appears to be much thicker than what is industry standard. This one measures almost 0.027"! This is the standard thickness for large rifle primers. This could be the source of the problem if the stamping dies used to make these cups are for the normal 0.021" thickness that Winchester normally uses. The material being too thick for the punch dies would definately create work hardening and stress cracking issues with these primers. Sounds like someone at the Winchester primer manufacturing facility didn't check material thickness before punching these guys out.  
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Posted: 4/5/2024 1:51:41 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 2grimjim: https://imgdump5.novarata.net/gu8cxb.jpg https://imgdump5.novarata.net/26puzu.jpg https://imgdump5.novarata.net/k0ddab.jpg https://imgdump5.novarata.net/4d3frn.jpg https://imgdump5.novarata.net/dvro6d.jpg https://imgdump5.novarata.net/elzolx.jpg https://imgdump5.novarata.net/svw5a4.jpg Known Winchester problem. Same happened to me with primers from about 10 years ago.  Attached FileI emailed them about it and they ignored me. It ruined my $130 origin action bolt face. Thankful Ray at Zermatt replaced it for free because they are an absolutely awesome company.  Attached FileI'll never buy Win primers again. |
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Posted: 4/5/2024 1:57:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2grimjim]
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By drfroglegs: Known Winchester problem. Same happened to me with primers from about 10 years ago. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/322543/20230824_224459_jpg-3178933.JPG I emailed them about it and they ignored me. It ruined my $130 origin action bolt face. Thankful Ray at Zermatt replaced it for free because they are an absolutely awesome company. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/322543/20230823_214846_jpg-3178943.JPG I'll never buy Win primers again. Yeah... lesson learned. Those are some gnarly blowouts! I've heard a lot of good things about Zermatt. |
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Posted: 4/5/2024 2:02:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2grimjim]
[#39]
Of course, trying to contact Winchester ammo through their website is uselss.
So, anyone that has bought thousands of these shitty primers, here ya' go: Winchester ammo phone number and corporate compliance hotline |
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Posted: 4/5/2024 2:11:19 PM EDT
[#40]
Try social media before going to a lawsuit! You’ll probably get much faster results!!!
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Posted: 4/5/2024 2:32:36 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 2grimjim: Of course, trying to contact Winchester ammo through their website is uselss. So, anyone that has bought thousands of these shitty primers, here ya' go: Winchester ammo phone number and corporate compliance hotline Fortunately I bought those a decade ago for $30/k, so I just said hell with them never again and moved on after they ignored my attempt to contact them. |
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Posted: 4/5/2024 2:33:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: jos51700]
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 2grimjim: Interesting... I was able to get a good measurement on the cup thickness on one of the defective primers. Not what I expected. It appears to be much thicker than what is industry standard. This one measures almost 0.027"! This is the standard thickness for large rifle primers. This could be the source of the problem if the stamping dies used to make these cups are for the normal 0.021" thickness that Winchester normally uses. The material being too thick for the punch dies would definately create work hardening and stress cracking issues with these primers. Sounds like someone at the Winchester primer manufacturing facility didn't check material thickness before punching these guys out. https://imgdump5.novarata.net/z7cvpk.jpg https://i.imgur.com/QJM65zp.png How sure are you that the section you're measuring is flat? It looks like it would be curved, which would not be a clean measurement with a flat-anvil mic. ETA I'm assuming that you took a section of the wall and bent it out, but I guess you could have removed a section of the wall and are measuring the base, which would be OK now that I look at it. |
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Posted: 4/5/2024 2:41:22 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jos51700: How sure are you that the section you're measuring is flat? It looks like it would be curved, which would not be a clean measurement with a flat-anvil mic. ETA I'm assuming that you took a section of the wall and bent it out, but I guess you could have removed a section of the wall and are measuring the base, which would be OK now that I look at it. I carefully cut the side away under a microscope with a jewlers die grinder and got a good reading on the flat that contacts the bolt face. I assure you, it's an accurate measurement. |
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USA
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Posted: 4/5/2024 3:46:06 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 2grimjim: Interesting... I was able to get a good measurement on the cup thickness on one of the defective primers. Not what I expected. It appears to be much thicker than what is industry standard. This one measures almost 0.027"! This is the standard thickness for large rifle primers. This could be the source of the problem if the stamping dies used to make these cups are for the normal 0.021" thickness that Winchester normally uses. The material being too thick for the punch dies would definately create work hardening and stress cracking issues with these primers. Sounds like someone at the Winchester primer manufacturing facility didn't check material thickness before punching these guys out. https://imgdump5.novarata.net/z7cvpk.jpg https://i.imgur.com/QJM65zp.png But that thickness is for Small Rifle Primers not #41, known to be thicker/harder. |
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USA
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Posted: 4/5/2024 3:47:16 PM EDT
[#45]
It isn't the flat part of the primer that is important here.
Measure the thickness at the corner, at the location where they blow out. Also check the shape/profile there. Is it a smooth curve or is it sharp on the inside? |
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Posted: 4/5/2024 3:55:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: lazyengineer]
[#46]
My days of not taking Winchester seriously have certainly come to a middle.
I've had QC issues with reloading components from that company for decades. Its super encouraging when you open a tray of primers, and no two primers are the same color or shade. That's my experience with Winchester. Sloppy lead swaging into 55 FMJ. Brass case head separations. The list goes on. Also, none of the pics are working now. |
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Posted: 4/5/2024 3:58:26 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lazyengineer: My days of not taking Winchester seriously have certainly come to a middle. I've had QC issues with reloading components from that company for decades. Its super encouraging when you open a tray of primers, and no two primers are the same color or shade. That's my experience with Winchester. Sloppy lead swagung into 55 FMJ. Brass case head separations. The list goes on. Same. Primers are garbage, brass is garbage. I don't buy anything Winchester reloading related. I only buy CCI primers. |
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Posted: 4/5/2024 5:40:32 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RWEIII: But that thickness is for Small Rifle Primers not #41, known to be thicker/harder. These primers are being sold as #41 primers and marked as such on the box "FOR 5.56mm". The US Army Drawing number is 10534280 for the #41 primer cup. I haven't found the US Army drawing yet, but I'm pretty sure they are not using material this thick for the #41 primers. I still stand by my assertion that Winchester most likely used the wrong brass flat stock on this production stamping run and were using flat stock that was intended for large rifle primers. |
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IA, USA
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Posted: 4/5/2024 7:32:31 PM EDT
[#49]
The inner radius on the punch has a too sharp of angle. That is what is causing this. Or the brass was not annealed before forming the cup. This actually might be the reason for this. It is another cost cutting thing some of these companies do to increase profits. Same as Federal does by not stamping the case head one last time to harden the head. That is why they have lose primers at the first loading.
By not annealing the brass stock it will not stretch evenly. And that is why the radius is blowing out. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 4/5/2024 8:08:47 PM EDT
[#50]
I have two bricks of Win 41.
One is a all white box that just say #41. I bought those right at the beginning of the covid panic. The second one I got from bass pro a few years ago, Maybe 2021 ish. |
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