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Posted: 3/31/2024 8:57:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: _DR]
I have realized that the majority of the firearms I have been buying/want to buy lately are C&R.
I realize this forum is mostly about business FFLs, but thought there might be some here with opinions on having a Type 03 FFL. If my intent is to simplify obtaining C&R firearms, it this a good choice? Are there a lot of dealers who ignore Type 03 FFL holders and require their C&R firearms to go through a type 01 anyway? Basically is it worth it to get a Type 03? |
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Posted: 3/31/2024 9:07:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Jodan1776]
[#1]
IME, yes, it's worth it. Yes, there are FFLs who are dicks and won't take an 03 for a C&R gun, just like there are FFLs who are dicks and won't send another FFL a copy of their license until they receive a license copy first, or FFLs who are dicks and won't accept shipments from non-FFLs. But most people/places selling C&R guns will accept a C&R license.
I put off getting my 03 for way too many years. Wish I'd gotten it much sooner. If you only buy new guns, ARs, etc, it won't matter. But if you are buying anything over 50 years old, milsurps, all that, yeah, it's definitely worth the small cost and trouble. |
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Posted: 3/31/2024 9:42:30 PM EDT
[#2]
No down sides!
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ND, USA
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Posted: 3/31/2024 10:47:53 PM EDT
[#3]
One downside is that if it expires now the ATF sends you a letter wanting your bound book. So it’s just easier to renew rather than box it all up, drive to a shipper and send it to West Virginia.
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Posted: 3/31/2024 11:35:05 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Shadyman: One downside is that if it expires now the ATF sends you a letter wanting your bound book. So it’s just easier to renew rather than box it all up, drive to a shipper and send it to West Virginia. Yes that does kind of suck. |
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Posted: 4/1/2024 8:32:35 PM EDT
[#5]
So, if I get an 03, and then later want to get an 01 for a gunsmithing business, do I have to relinquish my 03, or can I keep it?
Looked on AFT FAQs, didn't find an answer. |
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Posted: 4/1/2024 9:18:26 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By _DR: So, if I get an 03, and then later want to get an 01 for a gunsmithing business, do I have to relinquish my 03, or can I keep it? Looked on AFT FAQs, didn't find an answer. |
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Posted: 4/2/2024 9:10:31 AM EDT
[#7]
So another sort of related question. Since antique guns do not require an FFL to sell/buy/transfer, can a person run a business gunsmithing/repairing antique guns only, without an FFL?
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Posted: 4/2/2024 9:15:19 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Shadyman: One downside is that if it expires now the ATF sends you a letter wanting your bound book. So it’s just easier to renew rather than box it all up, drive to a shipper and send it to West Virginia. When did they start doing this? |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 4/2/2024 9:19:47 AM EDT
[#9]
You can get inspected, however it's rare.
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Posted: 4/2/2024 9:32:18 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mak0: You can get inspected, however it's rare. I have heard of that happening, even though AFT site says no inspection requirement for 03s. Would not surprise me. |
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Posted: 4/2/2024 9:33:41 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NoMoAMMO: When did they start doing this? Couple years ago they announced bound books are forever. Appears to be a form of delayed national gun registration. |
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Posted: 4/2/2024 9:37:38 AM EDT
[#12]
The biggest downside for me was the need to write down buyer information when I sold a gun out of my collection.
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Posted: 4/2/2024 9:41:07 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By _DR: So, if I get an 03, and then later want to get an 01 for a gunsmithing business, do I have to relinquish my 03, or can I keep it? Looked on AFT FAQs, didn't find an answer. No requirement to give up your 03, but there's not much reason to keep it once you become a 01/02. I was a 03 before I opened a pawnshop. My 03 and 02 overlapped for a while, but I let the 03 lapse. Seven years later I decided to close my pawnshop so I applied for another 03. I keep that for three years but didn't renew it. I started selling off my collection and it was just simpler not to have to deal with the record keeping. Also, I decided there wasn't enough benefit to the 03 to warrant inviting the man into my life. |
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Posted: 4/2/2024 9:54:41 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Shadyman: One downside is that if it expires now the ATF sends you a letter wanting your bound book. So it’s just easier to renew rather than box it all up, drive to a shipper and send it to West Virginia. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Shadyman: One downside is that if it expires now the ATF sends you a letter wanting your bound book. So it’s just easier to renew rather than box it all up, drive to a shipper and send it to West Virginia. They need to update their website then . . . (or maybe they're just bluffing) https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/are-licensed-collectors-required-turn-their-ad-records-atf-if-they-discontinue-their Are licensed collectors required to turn in their A&D records to ATF if they discontinue their collecting activity? No. Licensed collectors are not required to submit their acquisition and disposition (A&D) records to ATF upon discontinuance of their collecting activity. [18 U.S.C. 923(g)(4); 27 CFR 478.127] |
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Posted: 4/2/2024 5:03:17 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Shadyman: One downside is that if it expires now the ATF sends you a letter wanting your bound book. So it’s just easier to renew rather than box it all up, drive to a shipper and send it to West Virginia. When was this and I would like to see something from the ATF stating they want bound books from an 03 when they give up their license. I gave up my 03 in September of last year and received nothing from the ATF. |
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Posted: 4/2/2024 7:39:17 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bladeswitcher: They need to update their website then . . . (or maybe they're just bluffing) https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/are-licensed-collectors-required-turn-their-ad-records-atf-if-they-discontinue-their Well then that makes it very interesting again. |
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Posted: 4/3/2024 10:24:33 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bladeswitcher: They need to update their website then . . Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bladeswitcher: They need to update their website then . . Never trust the FAQ's without reading the date of that FAQ answer and the cites. That FAQ answer was last reviewed almost four years ago, prior to Rule 2021R-5F. § 478.129 Record retention. § 478.129 Record retention. (e) Records of dealers and collectors. The records prepared by licensed dealers and licensed collectors of the sale or other disposition of firearms and the corresponding record of receipt of such firearms shall be retained until business or licensed activity is discontinued, either on paper, or in an electronic alternate method approved by the Director, at the business or collection premises readily accessible for inspection under this part. Paper records that do not contain any open disposition entries and with no dispositions recorded within 20 years may be stored at a separate warehouse, which shall be considered part of the business or collection premises for this purpose and subject to inspection under this part............... |
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Posted: 4/3/2024 10:46:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Bladeswitcher]
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DogtownTom: Never trust the FAQ's without reading the date of that FAQ answer and the cites. That FAQ answer was last reviewed almost four years ago, prior to Rule 2021R-5F. § 478.129 Record retention. Assume I have sub-par reading comprehension and point out to me where the text you quoted says licensed collectors are required to turn in their A&D records to ATF if they discontinue their collecting activity. |
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WI, USA
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Posted: 4/3/2024 10:54:13 AM EDT
[#19]
Tag. This is the first time I've heard anything regarding turning in C&R records. I'd like to see some clear cut supporting documentation.
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Posted: 4/3/2024 10:57:10 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By _DR: So another sort of related question. Since antique guns do not require an FFL to sell/buy/transfer, can a person run a business gunsmithing/repairing antique guns only, without an FFL? Yes. They're not Title 1 or Title 2 firearms. |
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Posted: 4/3/2024 12:41:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Bladeswitcher]
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NAM: Tag. This is the first time I've heard anything regarding turning in C&R records. I'd like to see some clear cut supporting documentation. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NAM: Tag. This is the first time I've heard anything regarding turning in C&R records. I'd like to see some clear cut supporting documentation. Originally Posted By Mindfull: I would like to see something from the ATF stating they want bound books from an 03 when they give up their license. I gave up my 03 in September of last year and received nothing from the ATF. You won't find anything that says 03 licensees have to ship off their records to the out-of-business records center, because they don't. The ATF does not consider a licensed collector to be a "business." https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/docs/information-collection/atf-form-53003a-ffl-out-business-records-request (see highlighted part below)  I would also refer you to the ATF's Best Practices web page https://www.atf.gov/firearms/federal-firearms-licensee-quick-reference-and-best-practices-guide Sale of Business or Going Out of Business Applicable Laws and Regulations: 27 CFR §§ 478.57, 478.127. FFLs, other than collectors, must give written notice to the Chief, FFLC, within 30 days after the sale or discontinuance of their firearms or ammunition business. When a discontinued firearms or ammunition business is succeeded by a new licensee, firearms records should be marked to show this fact and must be delivered to the successor. If there is no successor, all licensees, other than collectors, MUST deliver all of their firearms records within 30 days of absolute discontinuance of the firearms business to: NTC Out-of-Business Records ATF National Services Center 244 Needy Road Martinsburg, WV 25405 Phone: (800) 788-7133 Also, with all due respect to Dogtown Tom (and I do respect him and his knowledge), this is still the information provided on the ATF's website. https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/are-licensed-collectors-required-turn-their-ad-records-atf-if-they-discontinue-their Are licensed collectors required to turn in their A&D records to ATF if they discontinue their collecting activity? No. Licensed collectors are not required to submit their acquisition and disposition (A&D) records to ATF upon discontinuance of their collecting activity. |
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Posted: 4/3/2024 2:05:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: DogtownTom]
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bladeswitcher: Assume I have sub-par reading comprehension and point out to me where the text you quoted says licensed collectors are required to turn in their A&D records to ATF if they discontinue their collecting activity. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bladeswitcher: Assume I have sub-par reading comprehension and point out to me where the text you quoted says licensed collectors are required to turn in their A&D records to ATF if they discontinue their collecting activity. Well, I highlighted it in red so this time I'll make it big. § 478.129 Record retention. (e) Records of dealers and collectors. The records prepared by licensed dealers and licensed collectors of the sale or other disposition of firearms and the corresponding record of receipt of such firearms shall be retained until business or licensed activity is discontinued, either on paper, or in an electronic alternate method approved by the Director, at the business or collection premises readily accessible for inspection under this part. Paper records that do not contain any open disposition entries and with no dispositions recorded within 20 years may be stored at a separate warehouse, which shall be considered part of the business or collection premises for this purpose and subject to inspection under this part............... The point I'm making is don't rely on the FAQ's. |
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Posted: 4/3/2024 2:10:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: DogtownTom]
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bladeswitcher: You won't find anything that says 03 licensees have to ship off their records to the out-of-business records center, because they don't. The ATF does not consider a licensed collector to be a "business." https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/docs/information-collection/atf-form-53003a-ffl-out-business-records-request (see highlighted part below) https://i.imgur.com/uRYxaj7.jpg I would also refer you to the ATF's Best Practices web page https://www.atf.gov/firearms/federal-firearms-licensee-quick-reference-and-best-practices-guide Also, with all due respect to Dogtown Tom (and I do respect him and his knowledge), this is still the information provided on the ATF's website. https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/are-licensed-collectors-required-turn-their-ad-records-atf-if-they-discontinue-their You keep quoting old, out of date information.  Those ATF FAQ's have always been rife with old, out of date, misleading and just flat out wrong information. While they serve a purpose, they aren't law or regulations and you shouldn't rely on them as being such. ATF is not very interested in correcting or updating those FAQ's. |
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Posted: 4/3/2024 2:14:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: DogtownTom]
[#24]
nvm
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Posted: 4/3/2024 2:31:28 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By _DR: I have heard of that happening, even though AFT site says no inspection requirement for 03s. Would not surprise me. Link? |
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WI, USA
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Posted: 4/3/2024 2:31:28 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DogtownTom: Well, I highlighted it in red so this time I'll make it big. The point I'm making is don't rely on the FAQ's. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DogtownTom: Originally Posted By Bladeswitcher: Assume I have sub-par reading comprehension and point out to me where the text you quoted says licensed collectors are required to turn in their A&D records to ATF if they discontinue their collecting activity. Well, I highlighted it in red so this time I'll make it big. § 478.129 Record retention. (e) Records of dealers and collectors. The records prepared by licensed dealers and licensed collectors of the sale or other disposition of firearms and the corresponding record of receipt of such firearms shall be retained until business or licensed activity is discontinued, either on paper, or in an electronic alternate method approved by the Director, at the business or collection premises readily accessible for inspection under this part. Paper records that do not contain any open disposition entries and with no dispositions recorded within 20 years may be stored at a separate warehouse, which shall be considered part of the business or collection premises for this purpose and subject to inspection under this part............... The point I'm making is don't rely on the FAQ's. Are you intentionally being obtuse? Your link says to KEEP RECORDS.....UNTIL THE BUSINESS OR LICENSED ACTIVITY IS DISCONTINUED. Where, in your link, does it show that you are required to surrender your records to the ATF? |
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Posted: 4/3/2024 3:40:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Bladeswitcher]
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DogtownTom: Well, I highlighted it in red so this time I'll make it big. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DogtownTom: Well, I highlighted it in red so this time I'll make it big. Read what you quoted: "The records prepared by licensed dealers and licensed collectors of the sale or other disposition of firearms and the corresponding record of receipt of such firearms shall be retained until business or licensed activity is discontinued . . . " No part of what you quoted says anything about sending in records, only the retention of records during the license period. In addition to the FAQ, the other sources I posted above (post #21) established that collectors are specifically NOT required to submit their records. Originally Posted By DogtownTom: You keep quoting old, out of date information . . . Is the ATF's Out-of-business records request form also old and out-of-date? The form the ATF sends out to remind lapsed licensees to submit their records literally says "Licensed Collectors of Curios and Relics (Type 03) are NOT required to turn in their records." How much plainer would you like them to spell it out? So, no, at least in regards to C&R records being sent to the OOB Records Center, the FAQ is NOT out-of-date. ETA: An internet search for this form (OMB 1140-0036) returns an Office of Management Budget report justifying changes to the form. That report is dated Oct. 15, 2021. Among the justifications for revising the form is this statement: "The following sentence was added to Paragraph 2: “Contact the local ATF Office prior to sending records. Licensed Collectors of Curios and Relics (Type 03) are NOT required to turn in records”" https://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/media/2018/05/atf_form_5300.3a_draft_out_of_business_letter_0.pdf |
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Posted: 4/3/2024 4:16:21 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By _DR: So, if I get an 03, and then later want to get an 01 for a gunsmithing business, do I have to relinquish my 03, or can I keep it? Looked on AFT FAQs, didn't find an answer. Either way, you do not have to give it up. |
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Posted: 4/3/2024 4:17:48 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By _DR: Couple years ago they announced bound books are forever. Appears to be a form of delayed national gun registration. |
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Posted: 4/3/2024 4:18:56 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bladeswitcher: They need to update their website then . . . (or maybe they're just bluffing) https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/are-licensed-collectors-required-turn-their-ad-records-atf-if-they-discontinue-their |
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Posted: 4/3/2024 4:21:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Jodan1776]
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DogtownTom: Well, I highlighted it in red so this time I'll make it big. The point I'm making is don't rely on the FAQ's. |
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Posted: 4/3/2024 4:45:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: _DR]
[#32]
If you truly can destroy the BB after your 03 license expires and is not renewed, then the 03 FFL sounds pretty good.
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Posted: 4/3/2024 5:02:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Bladeswitcher]
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By _DR: If you truly can destroy the BB after your 03 license expires and is not renewed, then the 03 FFL sounds pretty good. Everybody has their own tolerance level for inviting the man into their life. Are you OK having to ask a seller for their name and address when you buy a C&R gun face-to-face? How about when you decide to sell a C&R? Imagine setting up at a gun show and doing deals on modern guns with a handshake but having to get personal information if you sell an old gun. You OK with that? What about the (admittedly remote) possibility the ATF could ask to look at your records? Remember, you don't "use" your license. You are licensed. That means every C&R you buy or dispose of during your license period needs to be logged. That's true regardless of whether you show somebody your license at the time you buy the gun or not. What's the upside? You avoid paying some transfer fees and can skip a few trips to the local FFL? Is that worth it? It is for some folks, but not for others. ETA: There was a time when some internet vendors gave dealer pricing to C&R holders (Brownells, Midway, Graf and Sons, Numrich, were some). These days they've either stopped doing it or normal online prices are just as good, so it doesn't matter much. One thing a C&R will help you with is that it satisfies the marksmanship requirement for CMP purchases. If you don't have a concealed carry permit and you don't qualify under the law enforcement of military criteria, your C&R will get you half way to CMP eligibility. |
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Posted: 4/3/2024 5:28:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Bladeswitcher]
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By _DR: I have heard of that happening, even though AFT site says no inspection requirement for 03s. Would not surprise me. That's not what it says. What 27 CFR 478.23 actually says is: "Any ATF officer . . . may enter during hours of operation the premises . . . of any licensed collector for the purpose of inspecting or examining the records, documents, firearms, and ammunition . . . not more than once during any 12-month period or (2) when such inspection or examination may be required . . . in the course of a bona fide criminal investigation. At the election of the licensed collector, the annual inspection permitted by this paragraph shall be performed at the ATF office responsible for conducting such inspection in closest proximity to the collectors premises." https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/27/478.23 Will they inspect you as a 03? Not likely. But if they do, they probably think you're engaged in business. |
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Posted: 4/3/2024 5:54:23 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NAM: Are you intentionally being obtuse? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NAM: Are you intentionally being obtuse? I think you are. You know damn well what my point is. Referring to FAQ's isn't the same as the actual regulation. Your link says to KEEP RECORDS.....UNTIL THE BUSINESS OR LICENSED ACTIVITY IS DISCONTINUED. No shit. Thats why I highlighted the part regarding "records retention"......that changed due to 2021R05F. Where, in your link, does it show that you are required to surrender your records to the ATF? Again, nothing I wrote disputes that a collector does not have to turn in his bound books. You seem to think I want to argue over that....I'm not. |
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Posted: 4/3/2024 5:58:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Bladeswitcher]
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DogtownTom: You know damn well what my point is. Referring to FAQ's isn't the same as the actual regulation . . . Again, nothing I wrote disputes that a collector does not have to turn in his bound books. Would you agree then, that in this instance, the FAQ is correct and accurately reflects the regulation? |
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Posted: 4/3/2024 7:54:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Bubbles]
[#37]
Collectors don't have to turn in their books. Only FFL's in the business have to and it's part of the federal law not the CFR's. I bet the ATF would just LOVE to amend the CFR's so that Type 03's have to send in their bound books. Fortunately federal agencies are not permitted to expand federal law past the authority that Congress has given them, though many have tried and recently been smacked for it by the USSC.
The relevant code is 18 U.S. Code § 923 (g)(4) https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/923 (g)(4) reads: Where a firearms or ammunition business is discontinued and succeeded by a new licensee, the records required to be kept by this chapter shall appropriately reflect such facts and shall be delivered to the successor. Where discontinuance of the business is absolute, such records shall be delivered within thirty days after the business discontinuance to the Attorney General. However, where State law or local ordinance requires the delivery of records to other responsible authority, the Attorney General may arrange for the delivery of such records to such other responsible authority. 18 U.S. Code § 923 (g)(1)(C) and (D) covers inspections of licensed collectors; yes, they can be inspected just like business licensees are. |
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Posted: 4/3/2024 9:57:01 PM EDT
[#38]
Maybe, it seems, more trouble than benefit to an 03 FFL. |
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Posted: 4/3/2024 10:44:44 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By _DR: Maybe, it seems, more trouble than benefit to an 03 FFL. If I didn't already have an 01, I would have an 03 - it would have already netted me a $600 shootable Luger at Tulsa had I bothered. |
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Posted: 4/4/2024 2:13:30 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher: If I didn't already have an 01, I would have an 03 - it would have already netted me a $600 shootable Luger at Tulsa had I bothered. How? Why couldn't you have bought it with an 01 or as an individual? |
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Posted: 4/4/2024 2:57:24 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By _DR: How? Why couldn't you have bought it with an 01 or as an individual? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By _DR: Originally Posted By backbencher: If I didn't already have an 01, I would have an 03 - it would have already netted me a $600 shootable Luger at Tulsa had I bothered. How? Why couldn't you have bought it with an 01 or as an individual? Didn't have my 01 at the time. Individual was selling it. Didn't know a tame FFL who would ship it to Texas for me. By the time I found a tame FFL it was long gone. |
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Posted: 4/4/2024 3:58:11 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher: Didn't have my 01 at the time. Individual was selling it. Didn't know a tame FFL who would ship it to Texas for me. By the time I found a tame FFL it was long gone. Gotcha. Interstate crap. I don't really shop out of state much except online. |
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Posted: 4/4/2024 6:24:04 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By _DR: Gotcha. Interstate crap. I don't really shop out of state much except online. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By _DR: Originally Posted By backbencher: Didn't have my 01 at the time. Individual was selling it. Didn't know a tame FFL who would ship it to Texas for me. By the time I found a tame FFL it was long gone. Gotcha. Interstate crap. I don't really shop out of state much except online. The twice a year huge Tulsa gunshow is AMAZING. 4200 tables - you have 17 seconds to look at each table IF you are the 1st customer in the door both days. If it is a gun you want, it is there. You just have to find it. |
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Posted: 4/5/2024 8:47:16 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher: The twice a year huge Tulsa gunshow is AMAZING. 4200 tables - you have 17 seconds to look at each table IF you are the 1st customer in the door both days. If it is a gun you want, it is there. You just have to find it. Have heard about it, would love to go. |
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OH, USA
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Posted: 4/19/2024 5:15:17 AM EDT
[#45]
I have an 03 for my personal use and a 07 for my LLC. In my case it is important to keep the two separated and buy every C&R that I want with the 03 and not the 07 license. I got bitten by the K98 bug again late last year and have been putting the 03 to good use.
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