User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
CA, USA
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Posted: 2/10/2024 1:56:25 PM EDT
This is a topic I've been pondering off and on for the last two decades.
A standardized Civil Defense weapons system in a similar vain as the Swiss. If I were President, Congress was on my side, and a Bill was passed to use the Federal Government purchasing power to procure not just rifles, but an entire small arms weapons system to be provided to participating civilians at either cost, or at half the cost to better ensure the security of our nation from threats both foreign or domestic. My current submission, although not a perfect one, is the Stoner 63. It's universal receiver design for a family of weapons from PDWs to LMGs simplifies production and the exchangeability of common parts. All the receiver parts are in expensively produced from stainless steel sheet metal stampings, piston action, QD barrel, and so on. My only apprehension is weight. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 2/10/2024 2:01:14 PM EDT
[#1]
Nike and Nike II missiles.
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Posted: 2/10/2024 2:24:03 PM EDT
[#2]
I would suggest training over several common weapons so they have the ability to rung what ya brung. This based on the model the early militias used before 1776. I’m thinking about drills for CQB and small unit maneuvering. I think that kind of training would be more useful than a standard weapon. There are plenty of weapons out there already and skills to shoot them.
As far as equipment, how about a standard accessories kit with water, medical, foul weather, and cooking gear. A lot of LARPers have more guns than sense, so are unprepared for actually mucking around in either urban or rural settings. |
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Posted: 2/10/2024 2:25:21 PM EDT
[#3]
M4A1
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Posted: 2/10/2024 3:19:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 18B30]
[#4]
Colt M4’s and M320’s.
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USA
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Posted: 2/10/2024 3:34:10 PM EDT
[#5]
The AR-15 is already the de facto one. May as well standardized on some form of that.
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KY, USA
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Posted: 2/10/2024 5:07:51 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By shwa: The AR-15 is already the de facto one. May as well standardized on some form of that. Every time I shoot my Cavalry Arms MKII I think it would be a good choice for some thing like this. |
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OK, USA
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Posted: 2/10/2024 5:16:28 PM EDT
[#7]
Pump Shotgun
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Posted: 2/10/2024 5:47:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: MoonDancer]
[#8]
M4A1 with carry handle rear sight and as an optional weapon a Mk 18 Mod 0.
4 magazines minimum with a cheap canvas 3 mag chest rig, an IFAK, and a basic carry sling. 300 rounds of M193 (M4A1) or Mk262 (Mk 18) issued with weapons. Contract with gun ranges to provide basic training with annual proof of a minimum qualification score submitted for an additional 300 rounds of ammunition. No annual qualification = no additional ammo for the year. Maybe make the M4A1 primary choice for rural folks, the Mk 18 primary choice for urbanites, and give suburbanites the option between the two. Issue them with carry handle iron sights and let the individual upgrade to optics if they so desire. People who can meet a higher than average annual qualification score can opt to trade up to an AR10. |
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Posted: 2/10/2024 5:56:54 PM EDT
[#9]
AR pattern.
Can be a less than optimal PDW Can be the best general purpose rifle ever made Can be the best DMR ever made Can be the best semi auto precision rifle ever made Can be a light support weapon Any talk of parts interchangeability for the purpose of field expedient reconfiguration, to me, is bogus. I've never heard of this being utilized in any meaningful way within an organization. From a manufacturing or armorer perspective, it makes sense, and the the AR pattern has it nailed down. |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 2/10/2024 6:55:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Oldhogleg]
[#10]
You bring up a very interesting point amannamedjed
I was asking a hypothetical question to creat a so called "well regulated Civil Defense" with a standardized small arms system for simplified logistics. But like you pointed out, those who would participate in such a thing would highly likely already have privet arms, so providing more arms would likely be redundant, though a logistical nightmare. A standardized Civil Defense small arms system properly be more appropriate for a nation of minimal private ownership of small arms. Therefore funds probably be put to better use on training, support gear and supplies, and practice; although I was thinking of including all of that in the Civil Defense Organization in general. But the point of redundancy is a valid one. Perhaps what's needed is a comprehensive Civil Defense organization for supplies, logistics, training, and practice? Although the National Guard was to fulfill this role more or less, it's essentially been gutted to a shadow of it's former self. It's used to be a policy to populate the US cities and towns with national guard posts and staff the ranks from the local population so no one dictator can turn the guard against it's own citizenry. But now days most of the National Guard Posts are decommissioned, and the ones that still exist are gutted of their heavy equipment, vehicles, artillery, explosives and such; all moved to Centralized locations to be controlled by big government, not the local community like it once was. |
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Posted: 2/10/2024 7:38:59 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By KitBuilder: M4A1 +1000 Let PSA have the official TDP and they’ll probably be able to produce a hundred million by next Tuesday.  The economy of scale the AR-pattern family has in the US is undeniable. Anything else is a fool’s choice. I get the romance behind the Stoner 63 but if you want to mass produce an expensive stamped gun that doesn’t have decades of hard-use product improvements behind it, I guess you do do, bro. 
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NC, USA
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Posted: 2/10/2024 11:14:06 PM EDT
[#12]
The AR-15 is by far the most prevalent rifle or carbine in the US and it’s a natural choice.
I’m not convinced a shorter M4 version is the best option. It’s range and velocity challenged. We’d be better off adopting a 20” 1-9” twist barrel to optimize velocity while still allowing use of M193 and M855 ammunition. I don’t see “civil defense” firing the long M856 tracer that started the whole 1-7 twist nonsense. |
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Posted: 2/11/2024 1:48:23 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By KitBuilder: M4A1 The American standard of firearms |
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Posted: 2/11/2024 9:14:49 AM EDT
[#14]
Midlength AR-15 with 16 inch barrel or just a standard 14.5 M4. Do not need the heavy barrel in those. I would rather have a lightweight barrel because alot of people suffer from weight issues like lots of 18 year old recruits now a days.
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Posted: 2/11/2024 11:30:01 AM EDT
[#15]
Just the standard m4a1.
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KY, USA
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Posted: 2/11/2024 1:19:00 PM EDT
[#16]
A AR15 could be stamped out with a two sided lower and it would be spot welded and welded with some small modifications
But the aluminum lower is not too expensive to start with, just using a well known manufacturing process would be more efficient |
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Posted: 2/11/2024 1:42:36 PM EDT
[#17]
AR15.
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Posted: 2/11/2024 1:48:01 PM EDT
[#18]
AR15 of some flavor
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Posted: 2/11/2024 3:22:17 PM EDT
[#19]
Logistics tells me that any system that uses a receiver or parts similar to the AR15/M-16 family would be my choice. In a TEOTWAWKI environment, having access to spare parts such as receiver parts, barrels, and so on would be an immense advantage.
Sure there are cartridges or systems for specialized purposes that would be superior to the 5.56x45 round, but for general use it is hard to beat how easy it would be to access both parts and/or ammo for the AR15/M16 family of firearms. |
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Posted: 2/12/2024 12:24:21 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By KitBuilder: M4A1 |
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Posted: 2/12/2024 12:44:02 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By John-in-austin: Nike and Nike II missiles. A fascinating subject. Folks don't realize how many Nike sites there were. |
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Posted: 2/13/2024 12:59:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Andrewsky]
[#22]
Ruger Mini-14 with a few mods:
-Slots in the stock for a simple tactical two-point sling -Flats milled in the barrel forward of the stock so that a picatinny rail "pod" can be installed in case the user wants to add a light and DBAL -Tapeswitch holders built into the stock for aforementioned light and DBAL -Picatinny rail molded as part of the receiver a la M25 variant of the M14 so it's easier to install scopes or red dots -The magazine catch would be duplicated on the underside of the stock to allow carry of an extra 20 rd mag, like a Steyr Scout -Extra rust-proofing throughout The reason I didn't say AR-15 is the Mini-14 is a little sleeker and the controls are a little more simple for noobs. |
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MO, USA
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Posted: 2/13/2024 1:11:43 AM EDT
[#23]
Ar type
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USA
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Posted: 2/13/2024 9:25:14 AM EDT
[#24]
Originally Posted By Oldhogleg: This is a topic I've been pondering off and on for the last two decades. A standardized Civil Defense weapons system in a similar vain as the Swiss. If I were President, Congress was on my side, and a Bill was passed to use the Federal Government purchasing power to procure not just rifles, but an entire small arms weapons system to be provided to participating civilians at either cost, or at half the cost to better ensure the security of our nation from threats both foreign or domestic. My current submission, although not a perfect one, is the Stoner 63. It's universal receiver design for a family of weapons from PDWs to LMGs simplifies production and the exchangeability of common parts. All the receiver parts are in expensively produced from stainless steel sheet metal stampings, piston action, QD barrel, and so on. My only apprehension is weight. Well, in the late 1950s thru at least the mid-1960s, the CD plan was to arm civilians with the tens of thousands of M1 Garands that were in storage or being re-built at Army arsenals like Anniston or Letterkenny. That was in the event of a nuclear strike(s) on a major city, and survivors would be the first of defense against invaders coming in afterwards. |
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IL, USA
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Posted: 2/13/2024 1:11:06 PM EDT
[#25]
Given the number of AR's floating around, the answer is obvious.
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IA, USA
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Posted: 2/13/2024 3:05:09 PM EDT
[#26]
AR platform Take your pick on which one.
The Stoner 63 never went anywhere. It's a technological dead end. I doubt the tooling exists anymore. |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 2/14/2024 10:53:58 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By John-in-austin: Nike and Nike II missiles. FPNI |
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Posted: 2/14/2024 11:02:36 AM EDT
[#28]
Ar-15 in 5.56 and choice of pistol in 9mm. PC with plates, 7 mags for rifle, 3 for pistol. Pack with 3 days worth of supplies and an IFAK.
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MP, USA
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Posted: 2/14/2024 7:39:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: JoshNC]
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Andrewsky: Ruger Mini-14 with a few mods: -Slots in the stock for a simple tactical two-point sling -Flats milled in the barrel forward of the stock so that a picatinny rail "pod" can be installed in case the user wants to add a light and DBAL -Tapeswitch holders built into the stock for aforementioned light and DBAL -Picatinny rail molded as part of the receiver a la M25 variant of the M14 so it's easier to install scopes or red dots -The magazine catch would be duplicated on the underside of the stock to allow carry of an extra 20 rd mag, like a Steyr Scout -Extra rust-proofing throughout The reason I didn't say AR-15 is the Mini-14 is a little sleeker and the controls are a little more simple for noobs. The AR is a far superior choice and the controls/ergos are literally best in class. A novice can learn to shoot an AR15 proficiently rather quickly. The mini is a neat rifle, but not in the same class as a good AR15. |
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MP, USA
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Posted: 2/14/2024 7:53:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: JoshNC]
[#30]
I’d say our current mil small arms fit the bill quite well for civil defense forces, with exception of the recent garbage from SiUgh ExeTurd.
Different tools for different problems. Colt M4a1 FN Mk46 FN 240 HK 320 GL KAC SR25 Glock 19, 17, 19x, or 45 Appropriate day and night optics, lasers, sound suppressors, etc. Add in a 300 or 338 Norma mag bolt gun with quality optic. And don’t forget about the bigger stuff like Carl Gs, Mortars, Artillery. |
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Posted: 2/15/2024 1:22:26 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JoshNC: The AR is a far superior choice and the controls/ergos are literally best in class. A novice can learn to shoot an AR15 proficiently rather quickly. The mini is a neat rifle, but not in the same class as a good AR15. I think in this role (people with minimal training) the Mini has some interesting advantages. Less is more: No gas rings No pistol grip screw, castle nut, or barrel nut coming loose Less lubricant required Less fouling in the receiver With the features I mentioned being molded into the stock, you also don't need to worry about sling swivels or adding tapeswitch holders. I'd leave it as a semi-auto. Probably redesign the system to accept a thick polymer mag. |
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Posted: 2/15/2024 1:57:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Jm11513]
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Andrewsky: My idea is a concept of a next generation Mini 14. I agree that the current one isn't good enough. I think in this role (people with minimal training) the Mini has some interesting advantages. Less is more: No gas rings No pistol grip screw, castle nut, or barrel nut coming loose Less lubricant required Less fouling in the receiver With the features I mentioned being molded into the stock, you also don't need to worry about sling swivels or adding tapeswitch holders. I'd leave it as a semi-auto. Probably redesign the system to accept a thick polymer mag. The ar has some interesting trickes up it's sleeve due to all those extra parts though The gas system is more efficient, and allows a straight recoil impulse You can easily swap grips, barrels, stocks if desired. I don't agree with using less lube. They're pretty close to the same, but the AR will do better with whatever lubricant may be on hand. M1 actions do best with grease Less fouling in the receiver, sure. Just don't get an m1 action dusty or muddy. The AR has been featured heavily in videogames the past 30 years. Ive seen lots of kids who already know how to load the gun and drop the bolt despite never having held a gun before |
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Posted: 2/15/2024 2:07:15 AM EDT
[#33]
Did any version of the Stoner, other than the belt fed, actually see use?
I mean is was an (the only?) available option for a 5.56 belt fed. Just belt fed firepower for small units ambushing and breaking contact, that was why the SEALs liked it. If you waved a para-SAW in front of them they would have left the Stoner in the arms room. |
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Posted: 2/15/2024 2:34:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Andrewsky]
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jm11513: The ar has some interesting trickes up it's sleeve due to all those extra parts though The gas system is more efficient, and allows a straight recoil impulse You can easily swap grips, barrels, stocks if desired. I don't agree with using less lube. They're pretty close to the same, but the AR will do better with whatever lubricant may be on hand. M1 actions do best with grease Less fouling in the receiver, sure. Just don't get an m1 action dusty or muddy. The AR has been featured heavily in videogames the past 30 years. Ive seen lots of kids who already know how to load the gun and drop the bolt despite never having held a gun before. It's not 100% clear if this civil defense weapon is going to be kept in the basement of the Sheriff's office to be handed out in an emergency, or stored Swiss-style in people's homes. Either way, do we want people to be able to swap out parts on the government-issued civil defense weapon? Let's say it's an AR that runs best with an H buffer. What if someone hears from the internet that H3 buffers are better and now the gun doesn't run in cold temperatures because the buffer weight's too heavy? What if they swap the pistol grip to some weird one with too deep of a pocket for the spring, and now the safety doesn't have proper tension? Easier barrel changes would be nice for armorers but how high is the round count going to be? We definitely don't want people swapping barrels at home (holding the upper between two blocks of wood and using a pipe wrench on the barrel nut). The Mini would be worse for ingress of debris but like I said I'm thinking of a modernized version so maybe something could be done about that. Maybe some sort of dust cover apparatus. |
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Posted: 2/15/2024 3:47:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Jm11513]
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Andrewsky: Some friendly counterpoints: It's not 100% clear if this civil defense weapon is going to be kept in the basement of the Sheriff's office to be handed out in an emergency, or stored Swiss-style in people's homes. Either way, do we want people to be able to swap out parts on the government-issued civil defense weapon? Let's say it's an AR that runs best with an H buffer. What if someone hears from the internet that H3 buffers are better and now the gun doesn't run in cold temperatures because the buffer weight's too heavy? What if they swap the pistol grip to some weird one with too deep of a pocket for the spring, and now the safety doesn't have proper tension? Easier barrel changes would be nice for armorers but how high is the round count going to be? We definitely don't want people swapping barrels at home (holding the upper between two blocks of wood and using a pipe wrench on the barrel nut). The Mini would be worse for ingress of debris but like I said I'm thinking of a modernized version so maybe something could be done about that. Maybe some sort of dust cover apparatus. It'd easier to have armorers configure the ar, vs a mini. More people understand the ar. More parts are out there. *Everyone* makes an AR. only ruger makes the mini, and they don't make a whole lot of them. Even the most fudd gun shop will have hundreds of ar mags. Good luck finding ruger mags It takes less time to build a mk 18 into an m16a4, vs re working a mini to have a different barrel or stock. If you don't want to bother armorers, easy. 2 push pins. The ar is less susceptible to environmental effects. Ar's are not only superior performers in extreme heat and cold, they handle accuracy shifts in temperature better. No need to worry about an SPR loosing its zero because the trigger guard pops out. The ar has already won. |
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GA, USA
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Posted: 2/16/2024 1:21:05 AM EDT
[#36]
If there was a published standard OP wouldn’t be allowed to own it. lol
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MP, USA
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Posted: 2/16/2024 1:59:58 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Andrewsky: Some friendly counterpoints: It's not 100% clear if this civil defense weapon is going to be kept in the basement of the Sheriff's office to be handed out in an emergency, or stored Swiss-style in people's homes. Either way, do we want people to be able to swap out parts on the government-issued civil defense weapon? Let's say it's an AR that runs best with an H buffer. What if someone hears from the internet that H3 buffers are better and now the gun doesn't run in cold temperatures because the buffer weight's too heavy? What if they swap the pistol grip to some weird one with too deep of a pocket for the spring, and now the safety doesn't have proper tension? Easier barrel changes would be nice for armorers but how high is the round count going to be? We definitely don't want people swapping barrels at home (holding the upper between two blocks of wood and using a pipe wrench on the barrel nut). The Mini would be worse for ingress of debris but like I said I'm thinking of a modernized version so maybe something could be done about that. Maybe some sort of dust cover apparatus. Other than looking less scary, there is literally nothing a mini-14, modernized or not, offers over an AR15. The contemporary AR15 is literally the king of the hill when it comes to an individual long gun. |
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Posted: 2/16/2024 9:37:51 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JoshNC: Other than looking less scary, there is literally nothing a mini-14, modernized or not, offers over an AR15. The contemporary AR15 is literally the king of the hill when it comes to an individual long gun. I think we're talking about two different things. I'm talking about making a gun for people who have basically zero training and are not into guns. I'd agree that an AR-15's better for people who are trained or mechanically inclined. Let me tell you a story about my friend. He's a new gun owner. He bought a Colt 6960 as a first rifle. A few things I've noticed: -He dented a D&H aluminum 30 round magazine by slamming it too hard. -The castle nut staking was messed up from the factory but he didn't notice it. -He's been running his BCG bone dry and hasn't cleaned it because he was only shown how to do it once and didn't care enough to take it apart. -The safety came from the factory with no tension on it. I fixed it for him. -He has been struggling with mounting MLOK accessories. I don't think he'd have had any of these problems with my modernized Mini 14 concept. Because the mag would be rock-and-lock style, no castle nut, it's a piston system so it requires less lubrication, the safety tension doesn't depend on the grip, and I'd mold the sling slots and tapeswitch holders into the stock. |
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Posted: 2/16/2024 9:39:20 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jm11513: It'd easier to have armorers configure the ar, vs a mini. More people understand the ar. More parts are out there. *Everyone* makes an AR. only ruger makes the mini, and they don't make a whole lot of them. Even the most fudd gun shop will have hundreds of ar mags. Good luck finding ruger mags It takes less time to build a mk 18 into an m16a4, vs re working a mini to have a different barrel or stock. If you don't want to bother armorers, easy. 2 push pins. The ar is less susceptible to environmental effects. Ar's are not only superior performers in extreme heat and cold, they handle accuracy shifts in temperature better. No need to worry about an SPR loosing its zero because the trigger guard pops out. The ar has already won. |
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Posted: 2/16/2024 9:54:58 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Andrewsky: I'd agree that an AR-15's better for people who are trained or mechanically inclined. Let me tell you a story about my friend. He's a new gun owner. He bought a Colt 6960 as a first rifle. A few things I've noticed: -He dented a D&H aluminum 30 round magazine by slamming it too hard. -The castle nut staking was messed up from the factory but he didn't notice it. -He's been running his BCG bone dry and hasn't cleaned it because he was only shown how to do it once and didn't care enough to take it apart. -The safety came from the factory with no tension on it. I fixed it for him. -He has been struggling with mounting MLOK accessories. I don't think he'd have had any of these problems with my modernized Mini 14 concept. Because the mag would be rock-and-lock style, no castle nut, it's a piston system so it requires less lubrication, the safety tension doesn't depend on the grip, and I'd mold the sling slots and tapeswitch holders into the stock. There's nothing that makes an AR more difficult to use than a Mini-14 for newbies. Rock-n-lock mag insertion is less intuitive than straight insertion, so I'd argue it's actually worse. Most things about the Mini-14 are worse. Looking "less scary" is not a redeeming characteristic. Do you really want the safety inside the trigger guard? |
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Posted: 2/16/2024 10:03:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Andrewsky]
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By KitBuilder: Everything you're describing is either a factory defect or user error. There's nothing that makes an AR more difficult to use than a Mini-14 for newbies. Rock-n-lock mag insertion is less intuitive than straight insertion, so I'd argue it's actually worse. Most things about the Mini-14 are worse. Looking "less scary" is not a redeeming characteristic. Do you really want the safety inside the trigger guard? I think the AR's easier to operate incorrectly. Like I said, I don't want the user to be moving around MLOK or being able to change buffers, or slam magazines in so hard they get dented. Rock and lock's a better magazine method for noobs. I've seen noobs put loaded mags in ARs only to have it fall on their foot a moment later because they didn't push hard enough and the click wasn't noticeable to them. My original point though was that I've actually seen an AR mag break from being slammed. I don't care about how the gun looks. That's not relevant for a civil defense gun. The safety's technically not in the trigger guard. It's slightly offset. Never heard of the safety being a problem on the M1 or M14 in WW2, Korea, or Vietnam. Is that an actual issue or an internet-only problem? |
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Posted: 2/16/2024 10:42:19 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Andrewsky: I think we need to take factory defects and user errors in account. You don't think they're important when the users are hypothetically not well-trained? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Andrewsky: I think we need to take factory defects and user errors in account. You don't think they're important when the users are hypothetically not well-trained? I disagree with your opinion about the mags. Magpul's M3 has an insertion stop that prevents over-insertion, since many instructors' answer has been to train novices to slam the mag in hard to ensure it seats. I think the AR's easier to operate incorrectly. Like I said, I don't want the user to be moving around MLOK or being able to change buffers, or slam magazines in so hard they get dented. Stopping people from changing things is more of a personnel management problem. The fact that the AR is so easily reconfigured and accessorized is a beneficial characteristic. Rock and lock's a better magazine method for noobs. I've seen noobs put loaded mags in ARs only to have it fall on their foot a moment later because they didn't push hard enough and the click wasn't noticeable to them. My original point though was that I've actually seen an AR mag break from being slammed. I don't care about how the gun looks. That's not relevant for a civil defense gun. The safety's technically not in the trigger guard. It's slightly offset. It's certainly not the norm today, but I understand when the M1 Rifle was designed, they wanted a safety which could quickly be disengaged and the standard of training (at the time) was not to keep fingers off of triggers. Never heard of the safety being a problem on the M1 or M14 in WW2, Korea, or Vietnam. Is that an actual issue or an internet-only problem? The standard nowadays though is to index outside of the trigger guard until ready to fire, so I'm sure that was learned from experience. Are you really arguing that the Mini's safety is better? I've also never heard of any training difficulties (other than cleaning) with the US military when they transitioned from the M14 to the M16. So is it really harder to train with in basic, or is that an Internet-only problem?
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Posted: 2/16/2024 10:53:21 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Andrewsky: I'm not sure what AR-15 you're referring to so I can't really argue with you. But let me discuss the AR-15 as if it's either the original M4 or one of the modernized ones with an MLOK handguard. I think we're talking about two different things. I'm talking about making a gun for people who have basically zero training and are not into guns. I'd agree that an AR-15's better for people who are trained or mechanically inclined. Let me tell you a story about my friend. He's a new gun owner. He bought a Colt 6960 as a first rifle. A few things I've noticed: -He dented a D&H aluminum 30 round magazine by slamming it too hard. -The castle nut staking was messed up from the factory but he didn't notice it. -He's been running his BCG bone dry and hasn't cleaned it because he was only shown how to do it once and didn't care enough to take it apart. -The safety came from the factory with no tension on it. I fixed it for him. -He has been struggling with mounting MLOK accessories. I don't think he'd have had any of these problems with my modernized Mini 14 concept. Because the mag would be rock-and-lock style, no castle nut, it's a piston system so it requires less lubrication, the safety tension doesn't depend on the grip, and I'd mold the sling slots and tapeswitch holders into the stock. No. M1 actions still require lube, and are more sensitive to what type of lube you use. You can easily dent a mini magazine, making it a rock and lock (which isn't as noob friendly as a straight in style mag) won't help you. The safety on a mini is located inside the trigger guard. That is not a good idea for a huge variety of reasons. The ar15 has a massive advantage in that the zero isn't affected by tension from the FCG. |
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Posted: 2/16/2024 10:57:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Jm11513]
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Andrewsky: Are we still talking about the civil defense rifle or just rifles in general? I'm not sure why people would need to be reconfiguring the civil defense rifle or finding mags in a gun shop for it. I thought this was some big government project. You probably don't need a 20" rifle if you're inside an urban center. Likewise you don't need a mk18 if you're out in the sticks. Being adaptable means you can easily build a rifle to suit certain needs at a fraction of the cost, be it a musket, carbine, SPR, IAR, etc. Also if the magazines are common as dirt, thats less effort you'll need to expend to keep rifles fed and in the fight. Logistics matter. But I'm sure it'd be all sorts of fun trying to find millions of mini 14 mags somewhere. Hell, not to mention millions of mini 14's in general |
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Posted: 2/16/2024 11:24:56 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By KitBuilder: Factory defects are always important, and avoidable. I disagree with your opinion about the mags. Magpul's M3 has an insertion stop that prevents over-insertion, since many instructors' answer has been to train novices to slam the mag in hard to ensure it seats. Those other 2 issues you mention are about re-configuring and accessorizing, not operating the weapon. Stopping people from changing things is more of a personnel management problem. The fact that the AR is so easily reconfigured and accessorized is a beneficial characteristic. Covered above, but I'll add that I've seen Mini-14 mags damaged (front locking hole egged out) from incorrect attempts at removal and/or insertion. Agreed. Some guy already mentioned it in this thread, and it's always a silly thing to say. It protrudes into the trigger guard when on safe, offset or not. It's certainly not the norm today, but I understand when the M1 Rifle was designed, they wanted a safety which could quickly be disengaged and the standard of training (at the time) was not to keep fingers off of triggers. I'm sure troops had NDs just like they do today. I've never seen any data showing the statistical differences between then and now. The standard nowadays though is to index outside of the trigger guard until ready to fire, so I'm sure that was learned from experience. Are you really arguing that the Mini's safety is better? I've also never heard of any training difficulties (other than cleaning) with the US military when they transitioned from the M14 to the M16. So is it really harder to train with in basic, or is that an Internet-only problem? If we're making a couple million of these for civil defense I'd want to redesign and reinforce the Mini's magazine also. There might be a theoretical safety issue with the Mini 14's safety switch. Has Ruger been sued for it? The gun's been in production since 1973. I'd say the AR's safety switch is superior. More ergonomic and more likely to be used often. I'd consider a firing pin spring or firing pin block on the Civil Defense Rifle (CDR) for extra drop safety. I read this book. The author interviewed a lot of Vietnam veterans about their gear and weapons. I won't summarize it because it's been a while since I've read it but it's very good.  |
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Posted: 2/16/2024 11:31:41 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Andrewsky: I like PMAGs, but AR mags are very thin. I dropped a PMAG and it broke. I also broke a baseplate on one. I have learned to baby my mags. If we're going with the AR can we have steel mags? If we're making a couple million of these for civil defense I'd want to redesign and reinforce the Mini's magazine also. There might be a theoretical safety issue with the Mini 14's safety switch. Has Ruger been sued for it? The gun's been in production since 1973. I'd say the AR's safety switch is superior. More ergonomic and more likely to be used often. I'd consider a firing pin spring or firing pin block on the Civil Defense Rifle (CDR) for extra drop safety. I read this book. The author interviewed a lot of Vietnam veterans about their gear and weapons. I won't summarize it because it's been a while since I've read it but it's very good. https://m.media-amazon.com/images/W/MEDIAX_849526-T2/images/I/61rGl7nWKeL._SL1200_.jpg You don't want steel ar mags. They'd be too thin and easily damaged. Mini 14's despite such a long run are still relatively uncommon. The sheer number of ar's out there dwarfs the number of minis. Easily 100-1, if not more. No, the ar doesn't need a firing pin spring. These guns get dropped out of helicopters or get tossed around armored vehicles hitting an IED yet don't go off. |
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Posted: 2/16/2024 11:38:38 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jm11513: No. M1 actions still require lube, and are more sensitive to what type of lube you use. You can easily dent a mini magazine, making it a rock and lock (which isn't as noob friendly as a straight in style mag) won't help you. The safety on a mini is located inside the trigger guard. That is not a good idea for a huge variety of reasons. The ar15 has a massive advantage in that the zero isn't affected by tension from the FCG. Like I said, I'd try to modify the Mini 14 and its magazine for extra durability. I'd redesign it so the mag could be thicker. Maybe make it a polymer mag with a metal cage at the top. The safety's technically offset from the trigger guard. It's not inside the trigger guard. If Ruger can sell that gun that way since 1973 and not be sued into oblivion it's probably fine. I'd probably implement it with a synthetic stock with a metal stock liner to minimize the issue you mentioned. The old lock stock and barrel design isn't inherently a bad design (see the accuracy of the Remington 700 for example), just needs refinement. Kind of like how when you build an AR you ideally want to make sure you have a good fit between the barrel extension and the upper for best accuracy. |
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Posted: 2/16/2024 11:39:39 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jm11513: You probably don't need a 20" rifle if you're inside an urban center. Likewise you don't need a mk18 if you're out in the sticks. Being adaptable means you can easily build a rifle to suit certain needs at a fraction of the cost, be it a musket, carbine, SPR, IAR, etc. Also if the magazines are common as dirt, thats less effort you'll need to expend to keep rifles fed and in the fight. Logistics matter. But I'm sure it'd be all sorts of fun trying to find millions of mini 14 mags somewhere. Hell, not to mention millions of mini 14's in general |
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Posted: 2/16/2024 11:41:41 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Andrewsky: Have you ever ran them with oil? There's nothing particularly special about the M1/M14/Mini-14 that necessitates grease. That was just a knee-jerk reaction in 1942 about concerns of oil getting washed away in the rain. They're not really sensitive to the type of lube. I've just ran oil before and it's fine. What exactly about the mechanism makes grease a requirement? It's not a wheel bearing. There's a ton of gas pushing a huge mass rearward with a big spring pulling it back forward. It'll be fine. Like I said, I'd try to modify the Mini 14 and its magazine for extra durability. I'd redesign it so the mag could be thicker. Maybe make it a polymer mag with a metal cage at the top. The safety's technically offset from the trigger guard. It's not inside the trigger guard. If Ruger can sell that gun that way since 1973 and not be sued into oblivion it's probably fine. I'd probably implement it with a synthetic stock with a metal stock liner to minimize the issue you mentioned. The old lock stock and barrel design isn't inherently a bad design (see the accuracy of the Remington 700 for example), just needs refinement. Kind of like how when you build an AR you ideally want to make sure you have a good fit between the barrel extension and the upper for best accuracy. No, you use greese on m1's because otherwise it'll run out. Grease stays, and will stay when exposed to rain. I own 2 garands and 3 m1 carbines, and my dad oned several mini 14's. Those minis sucked. |
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Posted: 2/16/2024 11:42:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Andrewsky]
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jm11513: You don't want steel ar mags. They'd be too thin and easily damaged. Mini 14's despite such a long run are still relatively uncommon. The sheer number of ar's out there dwarfs the number of minis. Easily 100-1, if not more. No, the ar doesn't need a firing pin spring. These guns get dropped out of helicopters or get tossed around armored vehicles hitting an IED yet don't go off. Why does it matter how common they are currently? I thought we were making new guns. Is this off-the-shelf only? The HK416 has a firing pin safety. HK felt it was needed to help pass a drop test. |
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