I would appreciate comments on what I am thinking of doing. I've put in some study and reading but could be off-base. Long post with my plans and why; seeking advice.

Background: Have been mostly a pistol shooter my life, have had my own ARs for 10-12 years (shot my Dad's SP1 as a kid), just toys really though. Decided to take a CMP Rifle 101 Class + EIC Match weekend this past spring with my step-son (19yo) as a potential father/son thing and also to broaden my horizons. We both loved it.  I want to do it myself for challenge and fun, as well as w/him as a mutual hobby going forward. We shot the stock CMP-provided RRA 20" NM A2 guns at the match.  So I've been planning on getting a gun together.  Happening now as I found a barrel deal I could not pass up.

My first thinking was to make a little bit of a flexible gun on a budget; I've spent an unreasonable amount of $$ on guns in the last 18months and am on a budget here on out.  My plan was to make a gun w/an 18" lw Wylde 1/8 match barrel, like a Faxon match gunner, 2 stage trigger, and LPVO.  Something I'd shoot other than just training or matches, and would be "adequate" since my ability is middling and I face a learning curve.  This week I ran across an 18" FA 1/9 HBAR with an FSB at a price I could not turn down, and I have an RRA free float tube (it was to be cut-down for another project - another story).  This is way more barrel than I was contemplating, so I went for it given the price.  Here's what I am thinking:

1) BBL: FA (Criterion?) 18" HBAR 1/9, rifle gas, Criterion Hybrid chamber (I think), 4150/Chrome, FSB - (bought it)
2) A1 triangle handguards on RRA free float tube - (have both)
3) Upper - M4 (suggest me a solid cheap one; I have a Colt on hand but it's dang salty so I'll sell/trade it). I have a PSA toolcraft BCG on hand.
4) Optics - LVPO, like a used Vortex PST or something cheap-ish but adequate to start (have nothing, a SPARC solar I can sell/trade for something)
5) Lower - A1 retro-ish lower (partial fence) with RRA 2-stage trigger, BAD lever (have all this)
6) Stock - A1 D-type buttstock, have an A1 grip on hand. (can find/refinish one)
7) Sling - I have both types on hand and can experiment to pick what I prefer.

I think this is plenty of gun for a newbie, would be a fun and interesting gun otherwise that would make me bust it out to plink, etc. besides train.  I was going to moly resin the gun to give an overall retro look other than the wrong bbl, and m4/optic).  I reload and have 223 dies and can work up a load for the barrel this winter.

What do you all think?  Here are things that occur to me:

a) I know the A1 handguard used to be verboten. Why?  Should I use an A2 handguard instead for ergonomic or grip reasons?
b) Is a partial fence lower ok?  The other guns I have are either ineligible (S&W/magpul "China Doll" style lower), or I don't want to put in a 2-stage trigger (Windham MPC).  Is a tear-drop FA also ok? I can't see why not. I know rules used to be really tight but are now looser.
c) What is a suitable upper brand/price point? I will not now be using the A1 upper I was mating to that lower, or the salty Colt M4 upper I have.
d) Is the D-type stock idea bad because I should get a door one to add weights? Is that really necessary? The A1 fits me slightly better than an A2.

(I have built several ARs in the past and can do all this, have the proper tools, etc.)

This is the barrel:
Attached File

Attached File

I like it, but keep the Colt bolt.

1) 1:9 needs to go the way of 1:12. 18" is a bastard length. Unless you measure the twist and find it true or fast, don't use more than the cannelured 68gr Hornady or 69gr SMK/CC. HBARs are good for makeshift dumbells and a pain otherwise.
2) After dremeling to fit, they flex a lot. Mill some holes in the tube to knock a 1/4lb off. I've got a thread under Training>DCM subforums.
3) BCM blem.
4) PA SLx 3x micro, 69gr FGMM zeroed about a minute high at 200yds.
5) BAD lever bad.
6) Got an A2 buttplate?
7) Webs are less hassle.


A) The handguards used to have to be respective to it's model. A whole A1 isn't legal.
B) I think so. What's a "china doll" lower?
C) <$100. Any of the well known names.
D) I dunno the D-type. If you can't put an A2 buttplate on, go with a waffle collapsible and H2 buffer. On an RRA extension, notch 4 is A1 length.

The twist on your barrel is wrong. 1/9 can shoot a 75 Hornady if you are lucky, but it's not really all that great; you want a 1/7 IMO. Since you already have it, it would be ok for your first year.  

All the other stuff is fine, just ditch the A1 handguards. I don't know what a D stock is but it could work. Viper PST will work. When you are ready to upgrade, get a WOA 20" Service Rifle barrel or a Bison 6.5 twist. Bison is local to you and I think Ben shoots across the course there.

B

99% of the ammo out there is 55 or 62 grain.
IMO 1 in 9 is fine unless you are going special purpose.
75gr and up is shockingly expensive now.
I probably shoot my 1/9 ARs more than anything else.

just my take on it.

Some of the ranges actually prohibit somone shooting ball ammo at 600 yards.  Most everyone handloads and shoots 75/77 gr bullests at 200 & 300 and some form of 80gr or heavier bullet at 600 yards.

The problem with 1/9 is that it's not particulary good for even 75gr bullets. These are Sierra 77 TMKs at 2700fps. If your twist rate isn't a true 1/9, then the stability could be compromised even more. An SG of under 1.5 does not mean that the bullets will be unstable or shoot poorly, but it does mean that the BC of the bullet will be compromised a little. Not a deal breaker, but not optimum.

Like I said, his combo would be fine for the first year, but he is going to want somthing a little faster (1/7 or 6.5) after the first year.

Like said barrel isn't going to work. You need a 20" 1:7 or 1:8 if you shop around you should find a suitable bbl for $260 ish Satern, RRA , Criterion etc...

Buttstock... forget even a A1 , you will be fighting eye relief with Optics,  bite the bullet and get either a gen 1 UBR preferably or gen 2 adjustable stock.

Optics. Vortex PST, Leupold AR Mod1 or VX patrol both discontinued but around ask around at matches someone may have a scope for sale with the scope race everyone has a couple  . I would spend a little more and get a White Oak service rifle scope if buying new

Get a good sling made for HP not a chincy 1907 clone with flimsy hooks. Sling on the cheap you can use a gi web sling they actually work well.

Ammo : starting out use 77gr across course, one load simplicity. If you only plan reduced or very sheltered 600 like Bunyan or Cascade you could get away with 69 or 75s but Rattlesnake or Spokane in real wind not so much.



Where in WA are you ? What club do you plan to shoot ?

Your rifles will work but won't be optimum.

You want the best bullet you can shoot at 600 yards, typically a Sierra, Berger, or Nosler 80 from a 1-7 or 1-8 twist barrel.  A 1-9 limits you (unless it shoots well otherwise) typically to 69, 73, and 75-grain bullets.  600 yards is where heavier 80 bullets don't get blown around by wind so much.  

You can try to work around the wind issue with 64 or 69 Tipped Match Kings or 75 Very Low Drag or A-Max type bullets.  Longer bullets usually need the faster twist.  

The rules are fairly flexible as far as parts choices.  A1 furniture doesn't lend an advantage either way.  Telescoping butt stocks give you some fit latitude for different height, arm-length, and positions.

Thanks everybody, I'll hang my thoughts to everyone on this since it's linear and much of it said the same thing (a good sign, obviously).  
Expand to read all:


I will use this barrel for now as I really just care about seeing if I/we love it. If I need to change the barrel, so be it.  I am hoping where we shoot there will be a relay so we can use the same gun. If not I can float the barrel on the S&W (it's good, 1/8, 5r, but has an FSB atm) and use it as a "2nd" gun if we must. I also have an as-issued Garand with a good barrel; will look into option with that also in the future.

As to where:

- There is a long range about 40 minutes away, Paul Bunyan. Out to 600yds; I have never been. I guess I'd have to join there, about $325 for the first year - initiation, NRA, + range dues.  Not cheap.
- Cascade Range is 50 min away, open 2 days a month for $10 a day on a 200 yard range. Membership is full and waitlist closed.  For two of us, that may be the option as he’s a student.
- Paulsbo is 40 min north, 200yd range $15/day to use.
- Kitsap Rifle is still closed with legal trouble, though progressing I understand.
- there is a 100 yd range in town.  But we have a pistol  range at home that is safely backstopped (berm + rr tie trap)  and and I think I can clear a new shooting spot in the woods further out right at 100 yards. So I can practice to 100 yds at home.

If anyone from western WA has better ideas or info on that, I'm all ears.

Magpul lower:
Attached File


S&W tactical version/licensed copy, not legal. Also branded Magpul on the right side of the mag well:
Attached File

You might try Nisqually just farther south than Bunyan, they don't shoot HP there anymore but have 500yds open to members. Bunyan 600 is competition only. Cascade 600 is open to members only and competition but as you found out the list is closed .

You might try Nisqually just farther south than Bunyan, they don't shoot HP there anymore but have 500yds open to members. Bunyan 600 is competition only. Cascade 600 is open to members only and competition but as you found out the list is closed .

I did not know of that. Says they have 600, and membership would be $440 for two  of us, (high initiation fee but fair family plan, 140/yr).  An hour for me but pretty far for him. Cascade on public open days may be the best ticket. Have to think about. Thanks for the info.

You don't need to be a member of a club to shoot in the matches.

I belong to one rifle club about 10 min from the house that is only 200 yards. There are two 600 yard ranges that I shoot on all the time that are an hour away, and three more within two hours and I pay the match fee and participate.

B

Yep, I know I don't need to belong to shoot matches.  Also, there is one range with public days which I'll take advantage of I think - that's a great thing.  I'd just like to shoot over 100 occasionally on my own and not in a match, and not pay $500 for the privilege!  Being able to shoot 200 would be fine.  I used to live in Vermont before here, and it was not so hard to find a place to shoot (I did shoot IDPA back there one season - not the same I know, but still). This is Washington, with a lot more empty space, and it is way harder to find legal places to shoot.  Welcome to the west coast - now surrender your rights. I'd go insane if my dad's property was not outside the city limits and he had not built a good pistol range on it.  There is something to be said for having fun/redneck fathers. ;)

OTOH, when we shot the CMP class and match, the CMP peeps hauled all the way from Ohio to Oregon the Kongsberg electronic targets (we shot at 200).  Oh man, that was like sex.  Instant feedback, clear results. Wow.  I could roll on the A2 wheel based on what I saw right away w/o breaking position, and move right into the 10 ring on the next shot.  Amazing tech. I am sure I will be disappointed after that so am steering down my expectations. ;)

PS - I love your avatar. I know what that generally means; I assume there's a good story there.

Do you know about Tacoma Rifle Club? They have a 600 yard range.

A few years ago we put together a google earth file of HP ranges and that one didn't seem to be on your radar.

Glad you like the avitar. No story, just wish we would use more nuclear power. Nuclear power is proof that the green movement is religion and has nothing to do with their stated claims.

Whaaaa... ? I think I have heard the name, but no, I had no idea. That's almost ideal. Going to look into that. Thank you very much.

I agree with your sentiments and appreciate the avatar.  Well done.

Tacoma rifle and revolver club doesn't shoot HP anymore, maybe F class. 600 is only comp if used at all anymore. They prob have huge member waiting list too.

There is also Tacoma Sportsman's club about 1 mile NW of P Bunyan but only maybe 200 yds .

They may have Machias ( Seattle Rifle & Pistol Assoc ) back up but it looks like 500 yd midrange prone shooting . That is up North... East of Everett.

I know others have replied, but I wanted to give you my feedback.  I have done some NM competition, and I live close enough to Camp Perry where I can go every year, whether I'm competing or just visiting Commercial Row.  As a long-time AR builder focused on precision builds, I always walk the shooting line and talk shop with other builders and the military team armorers.  For what it's worth, here's my answers:

(A)  Nothing wrong with the A1 handguard per se (as long as it's in a free-float tube), but for most, it's not an optimal grip.  A2 handguards are easier to wrap your shooting glove around.  Some prefer a quad rail cheese grater because they believe they get extra grip.  I personally would not use an A1.

(B)  Nothing wrong with a partial fence lower.  But for aesthetic and resale purposes, why not a regular lower?  Tear-drop FA is fine.  For more information on rules about the rifle, read CMP rule 4.0.

(C)  I would suggest the common A4-style upper of your choice.  However, I would steer you toward something that would require a heat fit, like a Bravo Company or JP.  If using any other upper and the barrel extension has any sort of play in it, or inserts very easily, I would use .001 stainless shim stock around the barrel extension so that it will require a heat fit into the upper.  Anything less would introduce just a little variance in POI which is just fine for combat or range shooting, but not for National Match shooting.

(D)  The A1 stock is preferable over an A2, but as suggested earlier, one of your best options will be the Gen 1 Magpul UBR with a little lead weight in it.

Generally:  you can't really build a viable NM rifle that is also a good all-around rifle.  A NM rifle should we weighted down as much as possible with weights in the stock and handguard, is limited to a 4.5x optic, and might be a little less reliable when talking about combat-style shooting.  Your cheek weld will need to be solid and consistent and pushed up front.  You will need a scope mount that projects the optic much further forward than regular shooting, like the Geissele NM, DNZ Freedom Reaper.  Your stated Vortex optic would be fine.  The type of reticle matters most; crosshairs are preferable.  A "dot" would not do.  A Leupold would be a nice option with great glass without getting overly expensive.  Leupold can change the reticle to a custom CMP reticle if you want.  A 20" barrel is a must.  I've never seen anything else on the line.  At the 600 yard line, with the scoring rings being that exact, everything matters.  You need all the velocity you can get to push a 80-90 gr. projectile, which you'll need to buck the wind and remain just a little more consistent at 600.  A short twist barrel would be needed for such a projectile.  A gain twist barrel would probably be optimal.  Any quality 1/7 barrel from a reputable manufacturer would probably work for you.  A heavy duty sling and either a shooting jacket or, at the least, a super-thick sweatshirt to prevent it from completely cutting of circulation is a must.  An A1 pistol grip is preferable to an A2.  A BCG with more upper reciever contact and less tilt is preferable, like a Les Baer, Young Mfg., JP, and some of the new0er models (Lantac) with more bearing surface.  

With the right shooting skills, you could have an off-the-rack rifle like the one lended to you that incorporatees the above and do very well.  If your club events are not overly competitive, you can hold your own.  A Rock River NM with a little tuning can win any competition in the hands of the right shooter.  At my local club, some people shoot basic, factory-built 16-inch rifles and do ok and have fun, but we shoot reduced targets at 200 yards max.  

If you plan on holding your own in a competitive group, or ever going to Camp Perry, I would suggest incorporating the above to the extent possible.  After all, if you're limited by your equipment, you won't do well, and then you won't have fun.  This will be an awesome thing for you and your son to get in to together.  You don't have to totally break the bank to do so, but you can't just use whatever parts you have around.

If the above didn't turn you off, I won't even get started with shooting jackets, spotting scopes and stands, triggers, etc.  Good luck and have fun!

Thank you for your reply, and thoroughness.  I appreciate it.

I’ve been going slow with this as I think it through, and am in no hurry until I find the right optic, anyway.   I haven’t picked a mount yet, but I understand I need a cantilevered one and that’s what I’ll choose once I find the optic.  Some points I’ve learned from others above, studied on my own, and in response to you:

1) I already had a partial fence lower I was intending for an A1 build next year. I’ll build this rifle and use that lower anyway.

2) I had already ID’d an upper that fits what you said - a BKF “Mod O” that is indeed designed to be heat-fit.  I’ll lap it also to be safe.

3) The barrel is being switched to a 20” RR NM, 1/8.  I have been studying and understand the benefit of the higher BC 77s, etc. and also single-loading 80 SMK’s, etc. for 600.  Understood.

4) I had not considered the BCG in-depth. I have a Toolcraft nitrided one I was intending to use after checking the head spacing; is using a different model that desirable?  Obviously this can be changed down the road, but I hadn’t heard/read about that before (or it didn’t register/sink in to me..)

5) Buttstock-wise, I have a trap-door A1, which will let me weight it as I experiment and figure that out.

A question I have now is what would be a good place to start the weighting/balance? I’ve seen recommendations for it to be balanced at the middle of the magazine, leading edge, and also at the delta ring.  Obviously I can experiment, but which point would you start at?

I haven’t purchased a jacket yet, but will. I am working with a lingering back issue from an accident last year and it’s a must in my book. A glove too; I did shoot with one and could easily perceive how much it helped.  I appreciate that added reinforcement about those issues.

Front of receiver, +/- 1".

Regarding the BCG, increasing bearing surface will make for a more consistent (i.e. "accurate") shooter.  Joe Carlos has done research on this, you can look up his videos/blogs.  I have also tested it and found groups to be tighter.  Joe Carlos actually machines little screws into the rear of the BCG to force it not to tilt.  

Regarding weighting down the rifle, I would suggest putting the lead weight in the buttstock and the handguard area and playing with it.  Ultimately, the balance point will only matter when you're in the standing position.  In prone and sitting, you're wrapped so damn tight that a couple ounces in the wrong place won't make much of a difference.  With the UBR, you can add the smaller weight or the "double-wide" weight.  With a quad rail handguard, you can add lead bars like the Geissele starting at the bottom rail, and adding more.  I used the Geissele MK7 lead inserts and drilled some holes in the handguard to screw it down.  I ended up going with the full weight on the bottom of the rail and cut one weight in half and used a half on either side of the rail, towards the receiver.  Ultimately, if you just add some weight to the buttstock and some weight to the handguard, you'll be good to go.  The only way balance will be an issue is if you weigh one side down and not the other.

A lot of that will take you "out of competition" for EIC matches with your proposed setup.

Get an A2 handguard and use it w/ the RRA float tube.
Get a 20" NM barrel and install it into any flattop upper (someone might have a used A2 sitting around w/ 1/4 moa sights). NM forums has a used section and used barrels come up sometimes. Get one with <2k rds for 600yds matches; 2k+ will shoot at 100yds until 6000+.
A White Oak forward scope mount or a Freedom Reaper forward cantilever mount will work and is affordable. Athlon or Hi-Lux make scopes just over $400 (up to 4.5x is CMP legal). They are cheaper, used, on NM forums.
Get a regular lower, nothing fancy.
Use the A1 if it's comfortable and fits you. I use the standard A2 stock and guards, both full of lead (18lb rifle).
Don't worry about the bolt until you are a better shooter. I use a PSA that is pretty tight.
Get a RRA NM trigger or spend a little more on a Geissele NM when they are on sale (look for a used trigger on NM forums).
Go on ebay for a used Creedmoor hardback coat. It is worth it, many can be found cheap because they "shrank" over winter months (weight gain). Call Creedmoor for sizing advice.

(split up because I was over 2k characters)

Go shoot matches, lots of prone for learning trigger control, sight alignment and breathing; shoot lots of offhand to learn to love the wobble.  Ask questions (after the match) of guys that shoot well, they will help you.  One of the best service rifle shooters in the nation is in WA.

When you get better (470s+ in the national match course), start upgrading equipment.  Until then, spend on ammo or components for loading your own (Hornady 68 or 75, or Sierra 69 or 77 will work just fine; just use a H75 or SMK77 from 200 to 600 and load one load until you can shoot a 600yd group that is straight across the "waterline". Then learn to read wind and load 80gr for single-loading at 600)
I started shooting at Camp Perry with a backpack w/gear/ammo in it and shooting mat strapped to it, telescope in the backpack, and case with RRA A2 NM upper in it.

My qualifications - got my distinguished rifleman badge in 2019 using an RRA NM upper with near 3k rounds on its barrel, and a $450 Leupold 1-4x scope, range pickup LC brass, and H75s. I shot a lot to get the badge and shot consistent scores. Consistency and perseverance (keeping it together after starting with an 88 offhand) will cut points at matches.

Enjoy the journey and have fun! Tons of good people in the sport and all are willing to help and cheer you on.