Quoted: Quoted: One major thing wrong with Blu-Ray. Sony owns it. Yeah.  It's a HUGE problem, just like it was for CDs and DVDs.  Oh, wait... -Troy

CD was Phillips creation and DVD"s were mostly the work of Matshusita who licensed the FLLC  to Sony and about 5 other partners.
Still it don't really mean anything other than I still hate Sony for the BMG spyware dealings.

Quoted: Quoted: OK, Sony PS3 it is... PS3 is the best bluray bang for the buck at the moment. I don't think anyone makes a standalone player for less and the firmware in the ps3 bluray can be upgraded via download.

I must disagree.    The PS3 isn't that good a Blu-Ray player.  Its picture quality is lacking compared to that of a dedicated Blu-Ray player.

If the picture isn't good,  it can't be a good value.   Just as oval-shaped tires wouldn't be a good deal no matter how cheap they are.


CJ

Hell...  I was really pulling for HD DVD. I'm glad I only have a few movies.

So what is the best affordable BR player right now?

They've already got dual format players.  They're a hair pricey right now but if you're waiting to jump in, there's your ticket.

I've got a dual format player and I still buy HD-DVD if given a choice. Same or better (in the case of 300) content at a cheaper price, and the HD-DVD/DVD combo discs are just cool.

Quoted: I thought the porn industry went with HD-DVD - kinda outweighs the rest if true.

The porn industry is going on-line and into other areas... Their DVD sales were down 50% last year. File sharing is killing them.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: OK, Sony PS3 it is... PS3 is the best bluray bang for the buck at the moment. I don't think anyone makes a standalone player for less and the firmware in the ps3 bluray can be upgraded via download. I must disagree.    The PS3 isn't that good a Blu-Ray player.  Its picture quality is lacking compared to that of a dedicated Blu-Ray player. If the picture isn't good,  it can't be a good value.   Just as oval-shaped tires wouldn't be a good deal no matter how cheap they are. CJ

The good folks at AVS forums disagree with you... PS3 may not be the BEST Blu-Ray player, but it's considered far better than average from what I have seen. (No I cannot provide links, that site is so friggin huge! I did my research before I bought my PS3 in October, that was the prevailing line of thought)

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: OK, Sony PS3 it is... PS3 is the best bluray bang for the buck at the moment. I don't think anyone makes a standalone player for less and the firmware in the ps3 bluray can be upgraded via download. I must disagree.    The PS3 isn't that good a Blu-Ray player.  Its picture quality is lacking compared to that of a dedicated Blu-Ray player. If the picture isn't good,  it can't be a good value.   Just as oval-shaped tires wouldn't be a good deal no matter how cheap they are. CJ

Who says the picture isn't good other than you?



One-and-Only PS3 as Blu-Ray Player Thread

"I just got a PS3 80Gb model and am very pleased. I was less impressed with the Sony S300 and had swore I wouldn't ever buy anything else from Sony. But the reviews and such for the PS3 were just so good.

And that is what I'm seeing. Better video and audio, able to change from bitstream to LPCM on the fly, and able to decode TrueHD. And the load times for some of those pesky, java-laden BD titles like Big Fish and POTC is just amazingly quicker as are all titles. Upconversion of SD is fine, but no better than my HDA2 HDDVD player imo.

I got the BD remote and am glad I did. The Six-Axis is fine for gaming, but it pretty much sucks for BD.

After playing around with some downloaded game demos (Toy Home and Uncharted), I think I'll be playing some games, even though I never figured on that.

All in all, I'm only sorry that I bought the S300 first. I should have listened to others and gotten a PS3 then."

Damn this sucks.  I hate Sony and their spyware infected software and expensive proprietary hardware, they're going to take full advantage of their position and rape consumers.  The HD-DVD camp needs to counter attack and let the Chinese flood the market with cheap HD-DVD players.  I love watching HD content on my 1080p LCD, but there's no way I'm supporting any of Sony's crap.  This sucks!

I've seen a PS3 playing Blu-ray and frankly I wasn't very impressed by it.  The Sony Blu-Ray player I bought, which is currently not any more expensive than a PS3,  delivers a noticeably better picture.    But of course,  I'm not a gamer.    And what gaming I DO engage in,
I prefer on the PC.


CJ

Quoted: They've already got dual format players.  They're a hair pricey right now but if you're waiting to jump in, there's your ticket.

No way.

They are about $900.00.

For that price, you'd be better off just buying a player of one format, then, if your was the wrong choice, buying the other.

Even it you bought one of each right now, it would never amount to $900.00

As Blu-Ray exclusivity is moving from 49% to about 69% with the Warner's announcement, this format war is almost over (barring a move to neutrality or HD-DVD exclusivity by one of the major Blu-ray studios, which is now less likely).  As many have pointed out, consumers and retail merchants (along with the major studios, which all want an end to the format wars) will be increasingly reluctant to invest in HD-DVD going forward.

A question I have is whether the Blu-ray technology is more likely to enable BD players sold in the recent past or near future to play discs that display technological advancements than are the red HD-DVD lasers.  I think the Blu-ray players enable more precise reading of digital information, which, coupled with firmware updates, might increase longevity and enable compatibility with enhanced features.

So how long you guys think it will be untill the media becomes more affordable? $30 for a single bluray disc is pretty pricey, took a few years for DVD DL media to be affordable/worthwhile.

Quoted: So how long you guys think it will be untill the media becomes more affordable? $30 for a single bluray disc is pretty pricey, took a few years for DVD DL media to be affordable/worthwhile.

If HD-DVD goes away the price of Bluray Discs will definitely not go down.  Sony has a history of jacking up a premium on their proprietary formats.

Quoted: I've seen a PS3 playing Blu-ray and frankly I wasn't very impressed by it.  The Sony Blu-Ray player I bought, which is currently not any more expensive than a PS3,  delivers a noticeably better picture.    But of course,  I'm not a gamer.    And what gaming I DO engage in, I prefer on the PC. CJ

Hm. Mebbe you should come to my place for a beer and Pirates of the Caribbean. The blu-ray picture is exquisite! Perhaps it had something to do with the display...

(Note: I am a nit-picky art director with an eye for color. I judge video equipment harshly )

edit: Before anyone says it, NO that was not an invitation for a date!

Quoted: Quoted: If HD-DVD goes away the price of Bluray Discs will definitely not go down.  Sony has a history of jacking up a premium on their proprietary formats. Blu-Ray isn't a proprietary Sony format; it was developed with a huge group of companies.  CD was much more of a "Sony" standard if you want to make that case, and Sony hardly "jacked up a premium" on them. -Troy

Right... Sony has a minor non-controlling stake in the Blu-ray Disc Association...  Absent competition Sony will take full advantage of the situation, that's how they do things.  They can dictate to Replicators what they can and can't do, they did it with porn, they will continue to do it to keep prices high.  The entry price for HD-DVD replication is dirt cheap in comparison and no one really controls what can be put out.  Competition is good for the consumer and the only way to get prices down.

Quoted: You DO realize that the BS root-kit crap was provided (without details) by a 3rd party software developer to a record label that is a tiny fraction of Sony's business, right?  It isn't like the Chairman said, "Hey, I've got a great idea!  Let's secretly root-kit a bunch of people's computers so we can later launch a DoS attack on Microsoft!"

No, but what Sony said wasn't much better than that:

Thomas Hesse, Sony BMG's Global Digital Business President, told reporter Neda Ulaby, "Most people, I think, don't even know what a rootkit is, so why should they care about it?"

And then we have Jennifer Pariser, who is (was?) Sony BMG's anti-piracy chief:

..."When an individual makes a copy of a song for himself, I suppose we can say he stole a song." Making "a copy" of a purchased song is just "a nice way of saying 'steals just one copy'," she said."

Thats the sort of company I want to buy my consumer electronics from!

(Though I do realize that Blu Ray is much larger than just Sony. Still, fuck Sony. Fuck them good and hard.)

Quoted: Quoted: They've already got dual format players.  They're a hair pricey right now but if you're waiting to jump in, there's your ticket. No way. They are about $900.00. For that price, you'd be better off just buying a player of one format, then, if your was the wrong choice, buying the other. Even it you bought one of each right now, it would never amount to $900.00

I agree, I wouldn't pick one up now, but the option is there now and is only going to get cheaper.  If there is no clear winner when they hit the proper price point, then it'd be time to buy.

Quoted: Quoted: So how long you guys think it will be untill the media becomes more affordable? $30 for a single bluray disc is pretty pricey, took a few years for DVD DL media to be affordable/worthwhile. If HD-DVD goes away the price of Bluray Discs will definitely not go down.  Sony has a history of jacking up a premium on their proprietary formats.

Oh yes they will.

People, maybe ot you or me, but people, the consumers, have been paying $14-18 for first run new relaes for too long to ever agree to a format that costs $26.

Mark my words, the race is NOT about the first to the $100 player, it will bew won by whoever starts selling ALL titles for under $20.00.

Sony knows this.  Think about it, you can get a decent DVD for under $100, that upscales.

No way they are going to risk the vast majority of potential consumers just sitting pat on the old technology.  THey need to cut disc prices, and they will.  

I picked up a sony bluray player fr $299 at BB> They also knocked $100 off a tv for me, so in reality I paid $199 for it.

Quoted: Quoted: I've seen a PS3 playing Blu-ray and frankly I wasn't very impressed by it.  The Sony Blu-Ray player I bought, which is currently not any more expensive than a PS3,  delivers a noticeably better picture.    But of course,  I'm not a gamer.    And what gaming I DO engage in, I prefer on the PC. CJ Hm. Mebbe you should come to my place for a beer and Pirates of the Caribbean. The blu-ray picture is exquisite! Perhaps it had something to do with the display... (Note: I am a nit-picky art director with an eye for color. I judge video equipment harshly ) edit: Before anyone says it, NO that was not an invitation for a date!

That IS possible.  Or maybe the PS3 had an issue of some sort.  

It wasn't demo'ed on MY video system.   I KNOW what my system looks like,  and it's
absolutely in the top tier of video projection systems.   I'm fortunate to have it but it
didn't come to me without a lot of effort on my part.    And that I got it for so little cash
is a great bonus.

I'm using an "old school" CRT projector that was made for military flight simulators.
It could fully resolve 2048x1536 BEFORE it got several performance modifications,
and has been freshly retubed.  (9" Panasonic CRTs)   Original cost: 45,000 dollars or so.
Projected lifespan: 10,000 hours on the tubes before the picture becomes substantially
degraded.  That'd be about 40 years with my viewing habits.    Brand and type:
Electrohome Marquee 9501LC.     Model is still in current production, now made by
Video Display Corporation,  Cape Canaveral, Florida, about 20 miles north of where I live.

It was originally built in 1995 and has outlasted and outperformed ALL generations of
digital projectors yet made.   It has over 50,000 chassis hours on it and then it was
overhauled.   For all intents and purposes it's a new machine in pre-aged chassis parts.


CJ

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I bought a $99.00 HD-DVD player, I can live with the loss.  I didn't buy any movies yet and won't until I get official word, one way or the another. You luckout! I wanted an HD-A2 but "settled" for an HD-A3 for $199. Oops THAT'S the one I got, HD-A3 for $199.00.  Still, not a major loss if HD-DVD flops.

Same here and it does a heck of a job of up-scaling legacy DVD's .....

There were 2 free HD-DVD's with the player and we get 5 more by mail in ...........

When the cost of Blu-Ray players gets that cheap, I'll have one of those too - one more spot left on my HDMI splitter .............. HD-A3 and DishNet 622 HD DVR taking up the first two slots for now .............

Quoted: Quoted: So how long you guys think it will be untill the media becomes more affordable? $30 for a single bluray disc is pretty pricey, took a few years for DVD DL media to be affordable/worthwhile. If HD-DVD goes away the price of Bluray Discs will definitely not go down.  Sony has a history of jacking up a premium on their proprietary formats.

Once HD-DVD is completely gone. The price on BR will go down. The reason is that the companies had to charge more to re-coup their initial investment on the technology. I bet by Christmas of this year you will be seeing prices at about $19.99.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: OK, Sony PS3 it is... PS3 is the best bluray bang for the buck at the moment. I don't think anyone makes a standalone player for less and the firmware in the ps3 bluray can be upgraded via download. I must disagree.    The PS3 isn't that good a Blu-Ray player.  Its picture quality is lacking compared to that of a dedicated Blu-Ray player. If the picture isn't good,  it can't be a good value.   Just as oval-shaped tires wouldn't be a good deal no matter how cheap they are. CJ

Sounds about par, the PS2 was the shittiest DVD player I ever used, guess they're doing it all over again.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: OK, Sony PS3 it is... PS3 is the best bluray bang for the buck at the moment. I don't think anyone makes a standalone player for less and the firmware in the ps3 bluray can be upgraded via download. I must disagree.    The PS3 isn't that good a Blu-Ray player.  Its picture quality is lacking compared to that of a dedicated Blu-Ray player. If the picture isn't good,  it can't be a good value.   Just as oval-shaped tires wouldn't be a good deal no matter how cheap they are. CJ Sounds about par, the PS2 was the shittiest DVD player I ever used, guess they're doing it all over again.

Check one out before you make statements like that!

I love mine for Blu-Ray playback and for upconversion, the PS3 has a some great upconversion controls... More than my Toshiba HD-A3 does.

Quoted: <----not buying a damn thing till these idiots make a decision.

Same here...

These things remind of the $400 VCR's when they first came out.  Way too damn expensive for what they do....

If it makes you feel any better, the first DVD player I acquired, and still have,  sold for 1700 dollars.




It also plays Laserdiscs.  

It was very cutting edge.  It even had S-Video connections.  


And wonder of wonders, it was so new and so high tech that it actually has a BLUE power LED.


No upscaling, no component outputs, no 480p output.   Primitive by today's standards.

But...its picture compares well to any other newer DVD player when set to the same
output resolution, 480i.

I keep it in my rack in part just because it looks so good.  And sometimes I do watch
movies from my decent sized Laserdisc collection.


Some of those movies haven't ever been issued on DVD, even.


CJ

A couple thoughts:

What bugs me is that DVD has been around for less than 10 years while VCR has been around what, around 27 years and is only now being phased out...

Is Blu-Ray going to be phased out in less than 10 years now? My initial thought is no; while there will naturally be advances in TV resolution there is only so far they can really go with that - an analog would be digital photography. Joe Average is likely not going to wind up buying 50MP cameras in 5 years. It is much more likely that the imagers will hover around 10MP, but improve in quality.

So maybe we get up to 2000 lines per inch progressive scan in 5 years. But the TV panels become 24 bit depth, things like that.

Quoted: Funai, the company that manufacturers low-end (read: CHEAP) electronics under the names Emerson, Symphonic, and a few others has announced sub-$300 MSRP Blu-Ray players for early Q2.  Like all new Blu-Rays, they will be Profile v1.1.  Expect to see prices fall to under $200 by summer. Panasonic, Samsung, Sharp, Philips, and a couple of others showed new 1.1 players too, most in the $400-600 MSRP price range, meaning streat prices will likely be $50-100 less. Some are fretting over the high price of the Pioneer Elite and Marantz Blu-Rays, but both of these companies have long been marketing to the HIGH end, not the mass-market consumer.  See cmjohnson's post above for proof. Sony also anounced a $200 Blu-Ray/DVD writer drive for the PC, due this quarter. Basically, ALL of the news at CES was pro-Blu-Ray, with Toshiba's own Power-Point slides showing that, counting only stand-alone players (meaning: no PS3s), they were still only able to capture 49% of player sales despite sale prices as low as $99.  Add in PS3s, and HD-DVD players are under 25% of the market, and, most importantly, software sales confirm this by Blu-Ray winning in sales 52 out of 52 weeks in 2007. Toshiba has no counter, as they demonstrated by canceling most of their CES events and their weak "we're suprised and disappointed" press release.  Not only does Blu-Ray now control 69% of the studios, but if you look at the size of those studios and how many HD releases each represents, Blu-Ray now owns better than 80% of HD releases. HD-DVD is over.  More HD-DVD drives are being returned to the stores than are being sold, and eBay and Craigslist is full of people selling their HD-DVD drives and discs.  Expect Universal to abandon HD-DVD very soon, as their exclusivity contract expires in May just like Warners, and Universal is the 2nd largest studio.  Paramount/Dreamworks will then exercise their "outs" to get out of their contract, or Toshiba will simply release them from it, because the format won't be sustainable. It was always known that a format war would result in one winner eventually, and the numbers always favored Blu-Ray.  Now that the decision is official, it's better for everyone, as people can buy with confidence that Blu-Ray is the format that will be around in 10 years. -Troy

That's true, but what you're not going to get with the Funai player and other brands, is constant firmware upgrades. As blu-ray continues to evolve and grow, with double-sided blu-ray discs around the corner, firmware upgrades will be a must. The PS3 firmware update is done over the Internet, and takes about 5 minutes. Sony will continue to release firmware updates as blu-ray evolves...what about the other manufacturers?

I thought once porn went blueray the race was over

Quoted: ... I must disagree.    The PS3 isn't that good a Blu-Ray player.  Its picture quality is lacking compared to that of a dedicated Blu-Ray player. If the picture isn't good,  it can't be a good value.   Just as oval-shaped tires wouldn't be a good deal no matter how cheap they are. CJ

Funny you mention oval tires.

It's the very fact that most people with HD Wide Screen TVs are not bothered by watching movies where the cars have oval tires (which includes most of the gamer crowd), that I see regular ol' DVD's remaining the standard until prices balance out.

There is just no real "need" to switch to a new format, unless you are seeking the best possible picture - and most people are not.  It isn't like no longer having to rewind, or get tapes eaten, or deal with tapes just getting old.

Quoted: snip -Troy

Even better than I'd hoped.

I guess I picked a decent time to jump in then!

Quoted: Funai already releases firmware upgrades for their current optical drives.  Why would you expect that to change? Besides; most people never upgrade the firmware of anything they buy.  They simply replace it in a few years. Are you still actively using a DVD player you bought in 1997-2000?  Most folks have replaced their "primary" DVD player at least once or twice since then. -Troy

Is it a wireless/over the Internet update that doesn't require user intervention or burning something to a DVD/CD, entering a code, etc.?  I'm just saying that Sony makes it very easy with the PS3 to update over the air without user intervention...it just doesn't get any easier than that. Also, if a firmware update will allow me to run DivX on my PS3 (the latest firmware does) then I'm going to do that instead of going out and purchasing a new unit.

When the double-sided blu-rays come out, Sony has already said that all is required is a firmware update. No need to purchase another unit. Just that easy...  

Quoted: Quoted: Funai already releases firmware upgrades for their current optical drives.  Why would you expect that to change? Besides; most people never upgrade the firmware of anything they buy.  They simply replace it in a few years. Are you still actively using a DVD player you bought in 1997-2000?  Most folks have replaced their "primary" DVD player at least once or twice since then. -Troy Is it a wireless/over the Internet update that doesn't require user intervention or burning something to a DVD/CD, entering a code, etc.?  I'm just saying that Sony makes it very easy with the PS3 to update over the air without user intervention...it just doesn't get any easier than that. Also, if a firmware update will allow me to run DivX on my PS3 (the latest firmware does) then I'm going to do that instead of going out and purchasing a new unit. When the double-sided blu-rays come out, Sony has already said that all is required is a firmware update. No need to purchase another unit. Just that easy...

I updated the firmware on my HD-DVD player ... it consisted of downloading a disk image to my desktop, and then burning a CD with the uncompressed firmware on it. It wasn't as easy as the PS3 updates have been but it was still very straightforward.

Ooo, I'd be real pissed if I purchased a HD-DVD laptop

Toshiba's sales numbers did NOT take into account all those PS3s.   Add them into the sales figures and Blu-Ray leads 2:1.


Toshiba (and its allies) needs to get smart and negotiate for a Blu-Ray license NOW, and save their customer base by issuing Blu-Ray upgrades or trade-ins in exchange for the HD-DVD products that are already out on the market.  


I've also noticed that a lot of people simply have no CLUE as to how to configure their
player and display.  Oval tires indeed.   It's so simple to set it right yet so many
people aren't up to the task.    The stupidity of the average consumer is frightening.


No worries about HD going obsolete in the next ten years.   As has been mentioned,
HD itself took a LONG time to get going.     And an even higher resolution format
would be of absolutely minimal use when no displays are being made (for the
consumer market) that can display that higher resolution.

For quite a number of years, though, video projection systems capable of displaying
higher computer resolutions have been used in home theater systems using upscaling
devices at various price and performance levels.    But this stuff has always been
quite pricey compared to the "average consumer's" tastes.


Personally, I've had projection equipment that is capable of displaying 2500x2000
resolution since 1999.   But that's extremely specialized, high end stuff intended for
military and industrial applications,  at price ranges starting at 50,000 dollars and
going up to almost 80,000 dollars.    I got it as surplus when the company that made
it went out of business and had an asset liquidation sale.   I had some fun with that
stuff, and then made some money off it.  


How high should resolutions go in the next phase of ultra high definition?

The answer can be found by looking up the term "eye limiting resolution" and deciding
how large a display you want.


For an average person with average/good eyes, your total eye limiting resolution would
be roughly 8000x8000 over your entire field of vision if your vision wasn't blocked by
your eyebrows, cheekbones, and bridge of your nose.   Only out to the sides is your
vision truly not limited by facial features.   Your field of vision is therefore oval shaped.


Since most people would sit at a distance from the screen that has it occupying maybe
a third of the available visual angle,  1080p at a displayed resolution of 1920x1080
is pretty close to the limit of your eyes.


CJ




CJ

Quoted: How high should resolutions go in the next phase of ultra high definition? The answer can be found by looking up the term "eye limiting resolution" and deciding how large a display you want. For an average person with average/good eyes, your total eye limiting resolution would be roughly 8000x8000 over your entire field of vision if your vision wasn't blocked by your eyebrows, cheekbones, and bridge of your nose.   Only out to the sides is your vision truly not limited by facial features.   Your field of vision is therefore oval shaped. Since most people would sit at a distance from the screen that has it occupying maybe a third of the available visual angle,  1080p at a displayed resolution of 1920x1080 is pretty close to the limit of your eyes. CJ

Good post, I've heard much about the limits of the eye in various biology & psych classes but didn't realize the numbers. The only way to get higher resolution images is going to be to beam them into our brains.

This just in, Target is going Blu-Ray exclusive

And the dominoes start to fall more quickly.


I revise my predictions:  Another major studio that endorses HD-DVD will either switch
entirely over to Blu-Ray or at least will stop being HD-DVD exclusive, within six weeks.

And that'll be the game.



CJ

Quoted: And the dominoes start to fall more quickly. I revise my predictions:  Another major studio that endorses HD-DVD will either switch entirely over to Blu-Ray or at least will stop being HD-DVD exclusive, within six weeks. And that'll be the game. CJ

I just bought a HD-DVD as part of  a package but the TV hasn't arrived yet.  Should I take it back and exchange for a blue-ray?

If you can,  I would.


CJ

Quoted: One major thing wrong with Blu-Ray. Sony owns it. Does it make sense to hand Sony the keys to the kingdom of high-def video? Open (as in non-proprietary) standards have been the lynchpin of all highly successful "consumer" techonlogies. ETA: Have fun paying more for HD media and content once Sony gets the lock.

Quoted: Quoted: One major thing wrong with Blu-Ray. Sony owns it. Does it make sense to hand Sony the keys to the kingdom of high-def video? Open (as in non-proprietary) standards have been the lynchpin of all highly successful "consumer" techonlogies. ETA: Have fun paying more for HD media and content once Sony gets the lock.

Sony doesn't own it... it's a consortium of hardware makers and movie studios.

Think about standard DVDs and how they were developed. They are not expensive these days but were at first.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: One major thing wrong with Blu-Ray. Sony owns it. Does it make sense to hand Sony the keys to the kingdom of high-def video? Open (as in non-proprietary) standards have been the lynchpin of all highly successful "consumer" techonlogies. ETA: Have fun paying more for HD media and content once Sony gets the lock. Sony doesn't own it... it's a consortium of hardware makers and movie studios. Think about standard DVDs and how they were developed. They are not expensive these days but were at first.

Sony has their hands in it.  Sony could fuck up a 12 year olds wet dream without even trying.