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Posted: 4/17/2006 12:17:23 PM EDT
[#1]
I don't think you are getting it yet- If someone hits you in traffic, that is breaking a law that has a moral judgement- it is immoral for someone to damage you or your property. If someone is speeding, what moral law is he breaking? Human laws are not able to encompass all situations. In those (sometimes rare) situations when the human law is contrary to God's law, what will you do? would you rat out jews in Hitler's time? |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 12:17:57 PM EDT
[#2]
what are you calling reckless? |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 12:18:58 PM EDT
[#3]
Speeding is reckless. This isn't that hard to follow.
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Posted: 4/17/2006 12:20:01 PM EDT
[#4]
I got a ticket the other day for going 55 in a 35. A four lane street, on a clear dry day with light traffic. Yes, I deserved the ticket. Of course, being that this is CA and the state uses any and every means it can to rape you, my ticket will be at least $350. Is that a justified fine? Hardly. I had a post about it, and I was chastised by some holier than thou fool telling me that tickets should start at 1,000 and go to 10,000 and people who break traffic laws should have a taser put to their balls.
The officer was curt, and I admitted that I was speeding, but what pissed me off about him was how he tapped the hood scoop on my car and asked "oh what's this?" I said the scoop for the intercooler, and he said "so this is a suped up car huh?" I said no, I just bought it 3 weeks ago, I haven't modified it, and he said "ah but it's high performance." Going on a fishing expedition or just being a prick thinking he's gonna stick it to someone with a fast car? Probably a little of both. Give me a fucking break. Don't jerk me around, just give me the ticket and go, don't be an asshole. Had I been driving my truck or an Accord it's doubtful I'd have gotten the ticket. This was my first ticket since I've been driving. He had to meet his quota, the state had to make it's money, and I suppose I had to be "taught a lesson" by the good officer. $40 for a parking ticket, $40 for a no front plate ticket (plus other fees when the inspecting officer looks at the car after you "fix-it"). $350+ for a ticket that in most other states costs less than half for the same "crime". Of course it's not revenue generation, it's all about saving lives. Fuck CA and it's backdoor taxation of it's residents. I will just pay the fine and do the online traffic school. In my town there is so little crime that the police have little to do but write tickets and show up to court so it's doubtful I'll get out of this one. |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 12:21:22 PM EDT
[#5]
I got a ticket just outside of the Denver airport. Even though it's a four lane highway the limit is 45 for a mile or so. I was doing 75, oops. I was out of town for my court date and they wouldn't let me change it. I hired a lawyer and never had to go to court myself. Got off with defective vehicle and had to go to some stupid driving class. I will never deal with courts again without a lawyer. (Not that I expect too)
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Posted: 4/17/2006 12:23:01 PM EDT
[#6]
Yes it is. Tell us why speeding is reckless. In many states if you get on the freeway (CA, VA, MD?) and you DON'T speed, you are the one driving reckless. |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 12:23:37 PM EDT
[#7]
Have you heard about this thing called car insurance? They use tickets as an excuse to bring up your rates to a level on par with prison ass raping. If it cost 3x as much as the ticket would have cost you're still coming out ahead in the long term since the insurance companies continue to fuck you over a three year period. Whatever works. |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 12:23:48 PM EDT
[#8]
No, you are the one obeying the law. Others are driving "reckless". |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 12:27:32 PM EDT
[#9]
Still waiting on someone to answer this question:
What's safer? 1. A heavily loaded truck with crappy brakes, junk retreads, and a worn-out suspension doing 60MPH in a 60MPH, in heavy traffic. Or 2. A perfectly maintained BMW M3 doing 80MPH in a 60MPH zone with little traffic on the road? |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 12:31:29 PM EDT
[#10]
TactStrat,
They are both unsafe. The only difference is that one is being driven by an idiot with money. |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 12:31:49 PM EDT
[#11]
Your question is meaningless. The answer is: Both are illegal. But it is not only a question of "safety", it is a question of obeying traffic laws. Society has elected representatives to the state legislatures that have passed traffic laws to allow safe driving by the citizens. We, as citizens, are obligated to obey the laws. You can gripe all you want, but if you break the traffic laws, you are wrong. Sorry, but that's just how it is. |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 12:32:10 PM EDT
[#12]
Going 65 miles an hour on a divided 4 lane highway when everyone else is going 60-70 in a 50mph zone is not reckless. But going 50mph in a 50mph zone when everyone else is going 60-70 mph is reckless. |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 12:34:27 PM EDT
[#13]
So if you know you will eventually cause an accident, would you still obey the law? Are there other clauses in the dmv code that would allow you to break a law if it is safer? and if there isn't, would it be better to drive the speed limit to get to a hospital, or follow the speed limit and risk someones life you are transporting ? edit- I bring this up because i know for sure as an airplane pilot i can break ANY AND ALL LAWS as the PIC if i can justify it. I will certainly be held responsible if something bad happens, but i think it is an excellent rule that allows nearly all responsibility for my actions to rest on me, not a law that CANNOT predict all situations. I don't know if there is a clause in the dmv code. O_P- will you disobey a law that goes against God's law? would you rat out a jew hiding in Hitlers time to obey the law? |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 12:34:43 PM EDT
[#14]
Or better yet, the stupid bitch going the speed limit, but yapping away on her phone and drifting into other lanes. How about the moron stuffing a burger in his mouth while trying to change lanes. Then there's the skank trying to put on make up while coming to a red light. Of course there's the couple arguing with each other in the car and completely distracting the driver. Let's not forget the pickup overloaded with shit, that has pieces of furniture or vegetation falling off of it and on to the freeway causing a far bigger hazard than a driver going 15MPH over the limit. THOSE are bad drivers, not people who speed when the conditions allow it. I wonder how often the police cite these people? I doubt it's anywhere even remotely near as often as people who do 5-20 over the limit. 
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Posted: 4/17/2006 12:38:03 PM EDT
[#15]
I'm not griping. I fully utilized my rights as a US citizen and defended myself in a court of law, as allowed and fully supported by US law. My case was dismissed BY THE PROSECUTOR on her own accord. It's not like I held a gun to her head and forced her to dismiss my case. The act of me simply showing up for trial w/ my attorney was enough for her to dismiss my case. What does that tell you? |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 12:38:08 PM EDT
[#16]
I've requested a Jury trial for two speeding tickets and both of them were dismissed. I didnt use a lawyer, as my money was worth more than the time. However if I made enough money that my time was worth more than the money they I might have hired one. |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 12:39:21 PM EDT
[#17]
Interesting judgment. The foolish judges who decide such things in the kingdom of Illinois have proclaimed that speed alone is legally insufficient to establish recklessness despite the oft-repeated and entirely incorrect myth that 20 mph or more over the limit constitutes reckless driving. go figure, eh? |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 12:40:37 PM EDT
[#18]
"Know"? How do you "know"? I have been obeying traffic laws, including speed laws for 40+ years. I have not "caused" any accidents by obeying the law.
You're grasping here, old buddy. Most states allow exceeding the speed limit in an emergency, such as an emergency run to the hospital. But, obeying the laws of society is not only the "lawful" thing to do, it is also the "moral" thing to do. Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Obey the laws that do not obviously conflict with God's moral laws. (And, just in case you are confused, God does not give you the right to speed.  ) |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 12:42:08 PM EDT
[#19]
aw, c'mon...not even to Church!? |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 12:44:22 PM EDT
[#20]
That may be your opinion, but I disagree. Speeding is just one of those crimes that is only a crime because the government says so. It is not a crime because it violates the rights of other individuals. In Texas it is not illegal to drive over the speed limit, it is only illegal to drive at an unreasonable speed. |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 12:44:23 PM EDT
[#21]
You misunderstand me. I do not critisize your going to court. That is your right. Your case was dismissed. Good for you. What I am saying is that you ought not to break the traffic laws and speed. That's all. |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 12:45:19 PM EDT
[#22]
That is interesting, it shows how inadequate the law is- If you broke the law, and yet go to trial and are not convicted, you ARE INNOCENT Does that give anyone an idea of whether the law was moral or not? or whether instead the government/ law is inadequate? So OP, do you also never jaywalk, or disobey traffic laws when riding a bicycle? How bout on your cruiser? ever come up to a stoplight that wouldn't cycle because whatever sensor the state transportation dept installed wouldn't "see" you?do you just sit there until someone else comes along? I ask this because it has happened to me, late at night. |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 12:48:28 PM EDT
[#23]
Ah what the heck, I'll tell my speeding story and give some of you a heart attack.
I got pulled over for 120 in a 30 in Richardson, Texas. Guess what, I was not even given a ticket. I talked my way out of it. Course he did yell, scream and curse at me for a while. I suppose I had that much coming. OH and I own guns. |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 12:48:53 PM EDT
[#24]
That's hilarious. Last summer I rented a Ford Expedition (?? the really big one) when my fiancé and went to Santa Fee, NM. It was brand new and had 30 miles on the odometer. I can tell you without a doubt that this car was far more dangerous at 50MPH than my M3 is at 120MPH. I could hardly even keep that behemoth between the lines. It was like driving yacht down the street. If I took my eyes off the road for 1 second, I would be drifting into another lane. Now imagine all the housewifes driving around America in those Ford Expeditions, talking on their cell phones and putting on their makeup. It makes you realize how unsafe our public roads really are. Have you ever driven an M3 at high speed? |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 12:49:17 PM EDT
[#25]
Especially then. 1 Thessalonians 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 12:54:48 PM EDT
[#26]
The LEO who wrote the ticket was not available. So tell your client not to do it again. See Tuesday for lunch at the Club. |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 12:57:55 PM EDT
[#27]
Nope. But in my city, there aren't many opportunities to jay walk.
Especially not when on my bicycle. I've seen who wins in a bike/car wreck.
There is one just like that between my house and my daughter's. I usually pull over to allow a car to pull up to the sensor and trip it. If no car is there, I can turn right on red (legal here) and make a one block detour. I am not claiming that I "never" break traffic laws. What I am saying is that when I do, it is not on purpose. I have looked at a speed limit sign and then looked down to see that I was speeding. But I slowed down immediately. When on the highway, I use my cruise control, mainly because I tend to have a heavy foot and the cruise control keeps me within the speed limit. I honestly do not find it an unreasonable burden to obey traffic laws. It doesn't really cause me too much pain or make me late to get somewhere. It is just not that big of a deal to me. Of course, I once had a job where I saw people cut out of mangled hunks of metal with saws. That kind of clears your mind about the "need for speed". |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 12:58:28 PM EDT
[#28]
Yeah, I always pay without contest. I consider it the "You got caught you dumbass" penalty. Schulze, the Intelligent Speeder. |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 1:00:00 PM EDT
[#29]
They could have called me back for another day. Here's the way my attorney explained the process. About 20-30 people will show up for their jury trial. They can only try ONE jury trial case that day. The cases that the prosecutor feels they don''t want to waste their time on are immediately dismissed. They pick a case for the day and the other cases that the prosecutor wants to prosecute are called back another day, and the process continues. You could theoretically be called back numerous times until you actually get your case tried. |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 1:02:19 PM EDT
[#30]
Have you driven much on CA freeways? during times of heavy use? I guarantee if you drive the speed limit it would eventually result in an accident. And you say it would be the other persons fault, because you were obeying a law that is disregarded because it results in dangerous situations?
fine, i was grasping. But you evaded the question. What if the state does not have a exception clause? which is the better moral behavior? I realise what God commands- to obey civil authority, when it does not disagree with God's authority. And that is where i have a problem- God allows me to be responsible for myself, to be the ultimate authority in my life. Is it moral for me to obey a civil authority when that breaks my authority? Am i not able as a Christian with God's law to better regulate my life than the civil government? and i don't know if you caught it, but i brought up the fact that as an airplane pilot i am allowed to break any and/or all regulations as the PIC if i feel it is necessary. That is a better way to regulate a motor vehicle, and i wish it was the prevailing rule for cars/ trucks/ ground motor vehicles. Nearly all motor cycle teachers teach it is better to be 5-10 mph faster than most traffic-it is safer for the motorcyclist. Which is better, to disregard that, or to break the law?
despite the fact this statement is poorly written, I AM STILL ABLE TO "SPEED" ACCORDING TO GOD. |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 1:03:25 PM EDT
[#31]
FUCK!!  Last ticket I got was almost 20 years ago, I did a 4 block long wheelie on a motorcycle but got a ticket for failure to control the vehicle for "chirping" the front tire when I let the front end down.  That one cost me $280. |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 1:09:53 PM EDT
[#32]
The last time I was pulled over as a non doc was in college. I made a righty on a no turn on red. Cop pulls me over and is about to write me a ticket.
All of a sudden we hear screaming and yelling. Several frat boys were in rumble just 200 feet away. LEO looks at me, says its my luck day, throw my stuff into my car and takes off running towards the fight. Come to think of it I owe those frats boys a beer. 
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Posted: 4/17/2006 1:09:58 PM EDT
[#33]
I got a ticket once for doing 57 in a 55. No kidding. Must have been a slow day. I have a hard time thinking of that as reckless. |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 1:15:37 PM EDT
[#34]
couldn't you have had that dismissed as within the range of error on the radar gun? |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 1:18:56 PM EDT
[#35]
Maybe. I was just into my 20's, and even more naive than I am now, so I didn't even try. I did ask the cop if I was on Candid Camera. He didn't appreciate my sense of humor.
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Posted: 4/17/2006 1:24:52 PM EDT
[#36]
No sir, you are mistaken. God commands you to obey the authorities, meaning obey the law, unless it conflicts with God's moral law. If the state has passed a law that says "Do not go over 55 MPH on this highway", God does not give you the option to say, "I don't like that law, so I'll just go faster." If you cannot see this obvious truth, I am wasting my time discussing this with you.
God has no commandments regarding what speed to drive. So, if the civil authorities say that the speed limit is 55, then you, as a Christian, are to obey their lawful authority.
No sir, you are not. Unless you introduce some extrordinary circumstances, such as a life in danger, etc. Otherwise, you (and I) are commanded to obey the civil law. |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 1:28:02 PM EDT
[#37]
OP,
Thank you for your contributions. Why is it that personal responsibility and just plain doing the right thing is such a hard sell with so many on this forum? |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 1:33:04 PM EDT
[#38]
Because there seems to be a greater and greater discrepancy between Right/Wrong and Legal/Illegal |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 1:37:21 PM EDT
[#39]
So when people in the South during slavery broke the law and helped escaped slaves flee to the North, they were being irresponsible and immature? |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 1:38:00 PM EDT
[#40]
No, we're talking about speeding, not reckless driving. |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 1:38:31 PM EDT
[#41]
No, it's pretty easy to tell it's unadulterated bullshit. |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 1:42:45 PM EDT
[#42]
By your logic, I have a God given right to speed in Dallas, as driving the speed limit is one of the quickest ways to get yourself killed around here.
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Posted: 4/17/2006 1:43:20 PM EDT
[#43]
I believe it is because gun enthusists tend to be "self reliant" kinds of people. They tend to have a (honest) distrust of government. Sometimes this translates into a "the government can't tell me what to do" type of mentality. Such an attitude is morally wrong. In a free society, we do indeed have personal responsibility. But with that comes the responsibility to obey the rules (laws) of society that do not violate our basic freedoms. The governmant does not have the right to tell me how to worship, or what to say, or such things. But that does not mean that the duly elected government does not have the right to set laws to regulate traffic to facilitate traffic flow in a safe manner. The government does indeed have a right to do that and in fact has a very important responsibility to do that. We, on the other hand, have the responsibility to obey the rules of society that do not violate our unalienable freedoms. |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 1:43:21 PM EDT
[#44]
you made a blanket statement. I came up with reasons (valid) for disobeying, making your blanket statement invalid. have you driven much in California? |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 1:46:32 PM EDT
[#45]
how do you ride your motorcycle? go with the flow of traffic and place a much higher risk on your life, or go 5% faster than most everyone else?
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Posted: 4/17/2006 1:56:06 PM EDT
[#46]
Yep, your Atty hit the nail right on the head... that's EXACTLY why your case was dismissed. That's EXACTLY why our legal system is soo F@*K'ed up today  .That's EXACTLY why our society has become so tolerant .That's EXACTLY why more and more people shun personal responsibility .Yea, you sure as hell "stuck it to the man" on this one .... glad to see that you assisted in keeping our great legal system alive and well....Don't ever come back on here and post a complaint if/when that "great legal system" fails to serve you. It's not about "STUPID" traffic laws... It's about participating in and living in a Society in such a manner that SUPPORTS the rules of behavior. Remember... it's only a "stupid law" until it directly involves you in a negative/victim way... then folks raise tee total hell. I know, I'm LEO and see this kind of BS each and every day. |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 2:06:21 PM EDT
[#47]
This is where I have to part ways with all of you law and order types. The law, in and of itself, is a neutral instrument. I can be used for good, evil, or somewhere in between. In this instance, the law was used for stupidity. Trying to drag someone to court for going 55 in a 50 MPH zone is BS. Americans have always had an ambivalent relationship towards authority, and for good reason. Occasionally putting the state in its place is a good thing. |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 2:07:30 PM EDT
[#48]
A little. I didn't notice that it was much different than Houston. In Houston, a lot of people pass me up. So what? I ain't in that big of a hurry. 
I usually drive the speed limit or a little slower. If the traffic is so bad that I feel in danger doing the speed limit, I go someplace else. Don't misunderstand me, my friend. I am no "saint", and I am sure that I break the laws on occasion. All I am saying is that I do not "intentionally" break them as a standard practice. I do not feel that it is morally right to break the laws of society and, as a Christian, I know that my Lord expects me to "give unto Ceaser" and obey society's laws. Simple as that. |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 2:07:53 PM EDT
[#49]
Bottom-line: Put a $35K a year cop in a $40K car. Add in a few misc expenses. Let's say you're up to $100K a year total expenses to operate that squad car. That cop can bring in....what...about three $200 tickets an hour ($600 per hour). Times eight, is $4800 a day in fine revenue. If he works 250 days a year, that's $1,200,000 in fine revenue per cop each year. That's what it's all about. It has little to do with promoting traffic safety. If cops really cared about promoting traffic safety, they'd be sitting outside of every bar and pulling everyone over that leaves. Alcohol is responsible for the majority of traffic deaths, not some guy doing 60MPH in a 50MPH. |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 2:14:29 PM EDT
[#50]
TacticalStrat, you're a good man, but you are totally mistaken on this issue. (And, your math is completely worng.) I was a police officer and charged with traffic law enforcement. I neither knew or cared about "revenue". I only cared about enforcing the law, which was my sworn duty. I didn't know or care about how much money was generated. Neither did those working with me. I speak from actual experience. You speak without any. Stick to subjects where you have some experience. You will do better. |
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