Again, this is the third time, for those of you that didn't catch it the first two times.

FLIR analysis--why Thompson and McNulty are FOS

pato

Gobblin,
Be sure to time them effectively as well.
Not to mention that you should see if those things can fire themselves--as there aren't any personnel anywhere near those flashes on the FLIR tapes.

I especially like the way McNulty says that one of the flashes is a grenade explosion--yet it comes from underneath a fallen wall. Helluva throw, I say.

pato

Quoted: Again, this is the third time, for those of you that didn't catch it the first two times. FLIR analysis--why Thompson and McNulty are FOS

I read through every one of those points after following the link. Yes, this Goddard guy is much more of an expert than I am, but there are experts who came up with different conclusions than he did.

I am going to conduct some experiments with a thermal imager. I will see for my own eyes what bursts of gunfire will look like on a hot day. I will see what a shard of glass looks like while laying in the sunlight. Since it's debris and glass fragments that your sources claim to be the flashes on the tape, I will see why a shard of glass that's laying in the sun only shows up as a very brief flash. If the glass is in the sunlight, is heated by the same sunlight, isn't removed from the sunlight, why is it only showing up as an instaneous flash instead of staying illuminated due to its heat signature? It's not as if the sun instantly heated up the glass and then somebody threw a bucket of cold water on it to cool it off instantly, too.

Thermal imaging works off radiation signature (ie heat). Shards of glass, when left out in the sun, don't heat up and cool off in the span of one second or less.

Quoted: Again, this is the third time, for those of you that didn't catch it the first two times. FLIR analysis--why Thompson and McNulty are FOS pato

From FLIR analysis--why Thompson and McNulty are FOS:

Highly reflective materials reflect the temperatures of the objects around them. A good example is ... chrome bumpers [which] appear much colder [and thus darker] than the surrounding painted metal. This 'apparent' temperature is a reflection of the cold night sky.

Some of their examples they explained that could reflect heat sigintures is glass. If thats true, then there should be  thousands of small heat signitures that would appear on FLIR. The ground was littered with glass. When you see the fire begining to burn , you do not see thousands of heat signitures on the ground, and a fire that big puts out a lot of heat on all the surounding areas. Yet there is hardly a reading from the surrounding grounds of "reflections of heat" from glass and what not. Only images of suspected gunfire, in 4 locations. Yet your website that you provided stated that their reflections. Maybe not of glass, but from other objects.

Seems fishy to me there are only 4 "relflections" in all of that debris. That is, unless if it truly is gunfire. <------ ---- That makes a lil more sense. And about the reflections, Edward Allard, a former manager of the Deffense department night vision labratory, who holds severl patents on FLIR, and FLIR technology along with a company specializing in FLIR video equipment and anaylisis, who both studied the FLIR video of Waco, concluded that the 4 "reflections" were not reflections at all, but gunfire, but what those experts know isnt important FLIR analysis--why Thompson and McNulty are FOS <----- I have a hard time believing anything else from that website now....

Quoted: a: The agents sidearm is a Sig Sauer. I don't recall anything inherently unsafe about Sigs and I've owned them for a while. Ms. Thompson would have you believe that the AD was the result of "no safety" on the weapon. b: ATF MP-5's and AR-15 are NOT "machine guns". On a gun board--you should know the difference. Noneof the AR-15's was a full auto weapon--therefore Thompson's claim that the full auto fire was coming from ATF "machine guns" is false. Most, if not all, of the MP-5's were also semi-auto. c: Thompson repeatedly claims that "nobody is shooting at ATF agents during at least 2 portions of that clip--of course--there isn't any evidence to back up her statement--just her statement--as if she has a clue or can tell incoming from outgoing fire based on a video she didn't take. d: The ATF agent on the roof did not fire his weapon into the room. He did two quick peeks, trying to identify targets. He was also not struck in the helmet--he was hit in the body armor--left chest. he also broke his ankle sliding down the ladder. e: The agents that went into the room were not killed. In fact, one of the team leaders--Agent Buford--was one of the ones that entered the room. All came out alive. f: If you review Thompson's entire film--she was the one claiming that the FBI used flame throwing tanks---a claim that has been proven false and ridiculed even by staunch Davidian advocates.

Excellent points, but don't expect people that fall for propaganda movies to worry about things like 'facts'.

Quoted: Quoted: Here are the movies for those that have yet to see them. Waco: The Rules of Engagement (1997) imdb.com link WACO: The Rules of Engagement (1/2) WACO: The Rules of Engagement (2/2) after that, watch the extra footage added later. WACO: The Rules of Engagement (extra: infrared footage) WACO: The Rules of Engagement 911 calls and another film Waco: A New Revelation (1999) imdb.com link Waco - The New Revelation EDIT: HERE is another very short one thats worth watching. you can see a clip where an ATF agent SHOOTS HIMSELF IN THE LEG AS HE IS CLIMBING THE LADDER!!!!!! www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcRgnRa7qLY&search=waco Thanks for posting those. I couldnt find em.

Here's a better quality Waco: The New Revelation.

video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5510108493532885562&q=waco+the+new+revelation&pl=true

The CIA official interviewed in the video said that Delta Force operators were there, and that he spoke to them later in Europe and the operators said they were in gun battles with the Davidians. This could explain why the FBI said that none of their agents fired on the Davidians on the 19th...the Delta Force operators did. This CIA official was also in "executive meetings" as he called them, where Delta's presence and operations at Waco were discussed.

The hole at the top of the concrete vault where the women and children were found dead is VERY disturbing. The rebar is clearly bent in which indicates a blast from the top of the concrete vault...shape charge, the experts belive. (Someone else in this thread posted a picture of that hole, and the bent rebar). Autopsy evidence on those in the bunker said they died from a "sudden explosion". The initial shape charge explosion, and the subsequent propane tank that blew up are shown clearly in "The New Revelation".

Horiuchi claimed that no one at Sierra1 fired a shot, but 4 spent shell casings were later found by the Texas Rangers at that location.

No ATF agent filed a report the day of the initial raid...highly unusual. Later, when the ATF asked their agents to file reports on the initial raid, they decided it would be best to not have their agents file reports because it was creating "Brady material"...in other words, it would show the ATF was in the wrong. Would the "Brady material" prove the Davidians did not fire the first shots...that they were innocent? Well, a jury of their peers believed they were innocent and the jury voted to acquit them of the murder charges.



No arson charges were ever brought against the Davidians. Investigators recovered flash-bangs at the 3 locations where the fire is said to have started, nearly simultaneously. Coincidence?

The missing evidence...ATF has yet to produce any of the 4 videotapes made of the initial raid...and the front door disappeared. Koresh's attorney said that in going in and out of that door on a regular basis, it was clear that bullets were fired into the door, not out of it.

Agents frequently flipped-off the people inside, and mooned the women...Would you send your children out to these people? At one point during the siege, the FBI negotiator tells them that they are not allowed to come out, and that they will be "encouraged strongly to return to the compound." At which point he asks, "Give it to me straight..." and is told by the FBI negotiator that the bosses at the top have run out of patience. How can they come out now?

Negotiators repeatedly lied to those on the other end of the phone..."The electricity won't be cut off". That night the electricity was cut off. FBI repeatedly said that Koresh said he was coming out 5 times...he only said that once, then said that God told him to wait...so he yielded to what he believed was his "higher power." Right or wrong, that's what he did...and he only did it once.

FBI negotiator said there were weapons on the helicopters, since the Davidians insisted they admit that the helicopters fired on them. FBI said there were no "mounted weapons", but that those on the helicopters did have firearms. In the original 911 tape, Wayne Martin pleads with 911 to stop the firing from the helicopters and says, "That's them firing,not us! They're shooting from the helicopters!"

If it was Koresh's goal to shoot it out with the ATF then why did he let them retreat when they ran out of ammunition? Why not finish them off? After all, six of his people were dead inside, and they had shot at him when he met them at the door unarmed to tell them that there were women and children inside.

Experts testifying at the Congressional hearings repeatedly urged Congress to "find the missing evidence." Until that evidence is recovered, if it hasn't been destroyed already, there will continue to be unanswered questions. If ATF and FBI (and Delta) did nothing wrong, then turn over the evidence and put an end to the questions.

People are imperfect, our government is imperfect, but the people deserve answers...We The People deserve to know the truth.

TY FAL for finding that better quality video.

There was no shape charge and the autopsies do NOT say anything about "sudden explosion" . I have read every single one of those autopsy reports--so I have to conclude that either you are lying, or someone told you a lie.

Perhaps you would like to explain how someone--anyone--managed to sneak into the Davidian compound and lay a shape charge on top of a bunker that A: had another floor above it and B: there was no evidence that anyone would be in there since Howell himself had said they would be in the underground bus. If they didn't "sneak" in--maybe you can explain how someone manages to get in through the flames without being seen or injured, and plants a shape charge on top of a bunker that has burning debris all over it.
Perhaps you can explain why, if someone DID manage to get into the compound, WHY would they bother with a shape charge when they could just kill everyone?
Perhaps you can explain why not a single surviving Davidian says anything about anyone shooting into the compound--at any time after February 28th?

The claims of Delta operators being at the Davidian compound were thoroughly investigated and found to be untrue. Members of the communications support staff for that unit were in the FBI command post--but that was it.
So, I have to conclude that either you are lying, or that someone has lied to you.

Vernon Howell made MANY promises to come out of the compound--not just one. He promised to come out after the tape was played on the radio--didn't happen.
he promised to come out after Passover--didn't happen. he promised to come out after he translated the seven seals--didn't happen.
So, I have to conclude that either you are lying, or that someone has lied to you.

The flashes are easily explained in the link I have provided--especially noteworthy is the mention of angles between the aircraft, the sun, and the object that was "flashing".
Also noteworthy is the facty that there are no people noted in the FLIR video--and that the "spots" that McNulty say are snipers are shown to be run over by the tank--not very smart for the snipers, huh?
Also glossed over in your review of the link is that fact that McNulty claims that the Justice report states that 15 of the dead were found with GSW's near where the flashes were noted--a complete fabrication--the Justice report says no such thing--in fact--as pointed out in the link--the only Davidians in the field of fire from the "flashes" --those that DID sustain GSW's--were all shot in the head--quite unlikely with a raging fire going on.

The 4 spent shell casings were found to have been fired by ATF snipers on February 28th--from that same location.

it is not unusual at all for ATF agents involved in a protracted shoot out to not have filed a report that day. Have you ANY knkowledge of law enforcement at all or are you just getting your stuff from TeeVee?

Please reference ANYTHING that states that 3 flash bangs were found near the 3 fire sites.
Once you have done that research, please reference ANY investigation that states that those flash bangs were or even might have been the cause of the fire on the 19th.

Please reference examples of the negotiators lying to those inside. The trial transcripts--as well as the tape transcripts are available if you look.

It is apparent exactly where you have obtained your "evidence" and it isn't from any of the investigations--Treasury, Justice, or Danforth--it isn't from the trial transcripts, and it certainly isn't from some "unnamed" CIA official. You've been watching too many movies, sir.

pato

You need to see Waco: The New Revelation. It isn't an "unnamed" CIA official...he's named, and interviewed face to face. There were "agents" or "operators" crawling all over the compound the final day, so planting a shape charge would be no big deal...after all, that's what they do, right?

Why hasn't ATF filed the shooting report, then? They didn't want "Brady material"...material that would show they were wrong. You can see it in the memo.

All your "assertions" are answered in the two videos, The New Revelation, and The Rules of Engagement, complete with the evidence to back them up. Have you seen them? They caused the books to be re-opened on Waco, and two new Congressional hearings on the matter because of the explosive evidence they contain, including the flash-bang evidence I cited.

You really need to get out more and not buy the government/agent line hook, line, and sinker. Your brainwashing is nearly complete.  

Quoted: Quoted: Again, this is the third time, for those of you that didn't catch it the first two times. FLIR analysis--why Thompson and McNulty are FOS pato From FLIR analysis--why Thompson and McNulty are FOS: Highly reflective materials reflect the temperatures of the objects around them. A good example is ... chrome bumpers [which] appear much colder [and thus darker] than the surrounding painted metal. This 'apparent' temperature is a reflection of the cold night sky. Some of their examples they explained that could reflect heat sigintures is glass. If thats true, then there should be  thousands of small heat signitures that would appear on FLIR. The ground was littered with glass. When you see the fire begining to burn , you do not see thousands of heat signitures on the ground, and a fire that big puts out a lot of heat on all the surounding areas. Yet there is hardly a reading from the surrounding grounds of "reflections of heat" from glass and what not. Only images of suspected gunfire, in 4 locations. Yet your website that you provided stated that their reflections. Maybe not of glass, but from other objects. Seems fishy to me there are only 4 "relflections" in all of that debris. That is, unless if it truly is gunfire. <------ ---- That makes a lil more sense. And about the reflections, Edward Allard, a former manager of the Deffense department night vision labratory, who holds severl patents on FLIR, and FLIR technology along with a company specializing in FLIR video equipment and anaylisis, who both studied the FLIR video of Waco, concluded that the 4 "reflections" were not reflections at all, but gunfire, but what those experts know isnt important FLIR analysis--why Thompson and McNulty are FOS <----- I have a hard time believing anything else from that website now....

What this doesn't address are two things:

1) The two agents or "operators" who roll out of the back of the armored vehicle on the final day and begin firing. You can SEE the heat signature from these men on the FLIR tape, and the signature from their weapons as they fire.  
2) The two agents or "operators" who are in the courtyard area shooting, then begin backing away from the courtyard, still shooting.

As I've said before, find the "missing" evidence and put these questions to rest.

Quoted: 1) The two agents or "operators" who roll out of the back of the armored vehicle on the final day and begin firing. You can SEE the heat signature from these men on the FLIR tape, and the signature from their weapons as they fire.   2) The two agents or "operators" who are in the courtyard area shooting, then begin backing away from the courtyard, still shooting.

In the regular video clip, you can clearly see agents in the yard standing by the armored vehicles.

Plain as day.

Actually, you don't "clearly" see anything--especially two people--because they weren't there.
Second, the spots on the FLIR that McNulty claims were agents firing--never move--and are run over by a tank.
Explain that, por favor.

McNulty was already caught in a lie--stating that the Justice report showed many dead in the area of the flashes--when it plainly doesn't say that AND there plainly weren't many dead of GSW's in the area.

You haven't explained why NONE of the survivors say anything about anyone shooting at them--or the fact that none of the survivors had any GSW's--somehting really strange for a bunch od professional "operators" that can sneak in through raging flames to plant a shape charge that was plainly unnecessary.

FAL, I have seen both of those movies and they do not present evidence at all--they present conjecture, innuendo, and lies. That you don't want to see that, and the fact that you will not even entertain the fact that there might be other reasons for the deaths of the Davidians--liek maybe it was because they were following a self-proclaimed "Christ" that raped children and preached apocalypse--well, that's just sorta sad. I'm sure you don't mind when the child molesters move in next to you after they get out of prison--because it is always so obvious they were just set up and railroaded--right?

gobblin, allow me to state the obvious--if there were agents "clearly" visible on the tape shooting people--do you really believe that it wouldn't have blown up by now? Do you really believe that I would come to a bb 13 years later and defend my actions and the actions of those I served with--if it was "clearly" visible that agents of my country were shooting civilians?
Think about it.
If that tape was so convincing that there was government murder--why hasn't it caught on? Why haven't there been investigations as to who those "clearly" visible personnel are?
Tell you what--make you a deal--you just capture a video still of those "clearly" visible agents firing on Davidians--and I will do you the favor and file the charges myself.
That ought to give you some motivation, fireman. All you have to produce is the evidence that you state is "clearly" visible.
Anyone else on this board that has seen those tapes and can reproduce what gobblin is talking about--feel free to help out.

As far as the ATF shooting reports--what evidence do you have, FAL, that they haven't been filed?
Treasury filed a 1300 page report--I bet there's a tidbit or two in there about agents firing their weapons. 'Brady" material.....that's funny. Sometimes, if you don't get a response on something--you should understand it's because the question is so silly as to not merit one.

I wasn't brainwashed by anyone--I was there and saw exactly what occurred. You, on the other hand, treat a film makes as if he were the messiah of investigational journalism. He says it, you buy it--talk about your definition of "hook, line, and sinker".

Oh, those "hearings" you talk about? Yeah, convenient that you left out the fact that each and every investigation into the matter has shown that the Davidians set the fire and that they killed themselves and each other. In fact, more than one of the survivors corroborates that fact.
The last investigation--the Danforth--actually included the participation of Davidian attorneys--do you believe that were there a cover-up orwhitewash that they would have kept silent all this time?

Folks--you have been spoon fed and lied to--by Thompson and McNulty.
You should e angry alright--at those folks for making you believe a lie for all of these years.

pato

Quoted: Actually, you don't "clearly" see anything--especially two people--because they weren't there. Second, the spots on the FLIR that McNulty claims were agents firing--never move--and are run over by a tank. Explain that, por favor. McNulty was already caught in a lie--stating that the Justice report showed many dead in the area of the flashes--when it plainly doesn't say that AND there plainly weren't many dead of GSW's in the area. You haven't explained why NONE of the survivors say anything about anyone shooting at them--or the fact that none of the survivors had any GSW's--somehting really strange for a bunch od professional "operators" that can sneak in through raging flames to plant a shape charge that was plainly unnecessary. FAL, I have seen both of those movies and they do not present evidence at all--they present conjecture, innuendo, and lies. That you don't want to see that, and the fact that you will not even entertain the fact that there might be other reasons for the deaths of the Davidians--liek maybe it was because they were following a self-proclaimed "Christ" that raped children and preached apocalypse--well, that's just sorta sad. I'm sure you don't mind when the child molesters move in next to you after they get out of prison--because it is always so obvious they were just set up and railroaded--right? gobblin, allow me to state the obvious--if there were agents "clearly" visible on the tape shooting people--do you really believe that it wouldn't have blown up by now? Do you really believe that I would come to a bb 13 years later and defend my actions and the actions of those I served with--if it was "clearly" visible that agents of my country were shooting civilians? Think about it. If that tape was so convincing that there was government murder--why hasn't it caught on? Why haven't there been investigations as to who those "clearly" visible personnel are? Tell you what--make you a deal--you just capture a video still of those "clearly" visible agents firing on Davidians--and I will do you the favor and file the charges myself. That ought to give you some motivation, fireman. All you have to produce is the evidence that you state is "clearly" visible. Anyone else on this board that has seen those tapes and can reproduce what gobblin is talking about--feel free to help out. As far as the ATF shooting reports--what evidence do you have, FAL, that they haven't been filed? Treasury filed a 1300 page report--I bet there's a tidbit or two in there about agents firing their weapons. 'Brady" material.....that's funny. Sometimes, if you don't get a response on something--you should understand it's because the question is so silly as to not merit one. I wasn't brainwashed by anyone--I was there and saw exactly what occurred. You, on the other hand, treat a film makes as if he were the messiah of investigational journalism. He says it, you buy it--talk about your definition of "hook, line, and sinker". Oh, those "hearings" you talk about? Yeah, convenient that you left out the fact that each and every investigation into the matter has shown that the Davidians set the fire and that they killed themselves and each other. In fact, more than one of the survivors corroborates that fact. The last investigation--the Danforth--actually included the participation of Davidian attorneys--do you believe that were there a cover-up orwhitewash that they would have kept silent all this time? Folks--you have been spoon fed and lied to--by Thompson and McNulty. You should e angry alright--at those folks for making you believe a lie for all of these years. pato

Uh, what is the point of that, unkempt1?

Quoted: Actually, you don't "clearly" see anything--especially two people--because they weren't there. Second, the spots on the FLIR that McNulty claims were agents firing--never move--and are run over by a tank. Explain that, por favor. gobblin, allow me to state the obvious--if there were agents "clearly" visible on the tape shooting people--do you really believe that it wouldn't have blown up by now? Do you really believe that I would come to a bb 13 years later and defend my actions and the actions of those I served with--if it was "clearly" visible that agents of my country were shooting civilians? Think about it. If that tape was so convincing that there was government murder--why hasn't it caught on? Why haven't there been investigations as to who those "clearly" visible personnel are? Tell you what--make you a deal--you just capture a video still of those "clearly" visible agents firing on Davidians--and I will do you the favor and file the charges myself. That ought to give you some motivation, fireman. All you have to produce is the evidence that you state is "clearly" visible. Anyone else on this board that has seen those tapes and can reproduce what gobblin is talking about--feel free to help out.

First of all, I am no longer a firefighter and you know this, so quit the cat-calling. If you want this to degrade into a bash-fest, let me know and we can go to the pit.

Secondly, in the provided video "Waco: The New Revelation," there is ground-level video that CLEARLY shows agents in fatigues standing behind and next to the armored vehicles. I didn't count them, but it was a handful of men. In this particular video, it is unclear what they are doing due to the mirage effect, but they are there, plain as day.

Thirdly, I will state again that I am going to use our department's imager to conduct some experiments that will help to answer some of the nagging questions about glass heating up and cooling off in an instant...or so the .gov experts claim.

Again, in the ground-level video, there is a small gaggle of men in fatigues hanging around the armored vehicles watching the compound burn and this video was shown in "Waco: The New Revelation."

Quoted: Uh, what is the point of that, unkempt1?

sounds like he is trying to spoonfeed us  the wink wink nudge nudge "official" JBT version.

If we're being lied to, it's by his kind IMVHO

There is a vast difference between guys in fatigues standing near armor with the context unknown, and the claim of agents firing into the compound.

Hell, I have a picture of me standing next to a Bradley up there--I suppose that makes me one of the shooters, right? Of course, it was taken days before the 19th and almost a 1/2 mile from the compound, but why split hairs?

You guys have been claiming that agents fired on the davidians during the fire--ol FAL even claims that Delta operators snuck into the compound on that day and planted a shape charge on the bunker. Why? Who knows? If they were in there already--why not just shoot everyone?

If any of you can show where I have lied--by all means--go for it.

The thing is that all of your conspiracy theories just dont hold water as far as human nature goes.
Nobody has stepped up and claimed anything--other than a film maker that wasn't there.
The Davidian survivors haven't, their attornies haven't, not a single LEO has--and there were HUNDREDS there--even Johnston--the US Attorney that would know--hasn't said anything.

Everyone of your theories is contingent on the government wanting to kill those people--and deciding beforehand to do it. They are also all contingent on mass conspiracy to remain silent. They are contingent on a multitude of unreasonable and illogical premises--that unseen agents fired on Davidians, that shape charges were placed, that there were flame throwing tanks--each and everyone investigated and proved to be false.

Nope, it was exactly what it appeared to be. An apocalyptic cult burning itself in a fire of it's own doing, 51 days after firng on ATf agents attempting to serve a lawful warrant. They talked about burning it down--they poured fuel to light the fires, and the Davidians themselves overheard the orders to light the fire. Investigation after investigation has proven this out.

Doesn't really matter anyway. I'm not going to convince you of anything. No matter what gobblin actually sees on his uncertified and highly subjective testing--he will claim that the experts and the Viper program are wrong and that he can now "prove" that the FLIR flashes were gunfire.
Let's don't even account for the FACTS that no agents were firing, the timing of the gunfire is too long to actually be gunfire, and that there are no dead bodies--as claimed--to back up that ridiculous theory.

You want to believe the ATF and FBI--two agencies that don't like each other BTW, conspired to kill those folks? Fine by me. You are quite simply wrong-but that never changed the minds of the "flat earth" crowd either. The 9-11 conspiracy theorists claim explosives brought down the WTC, that there were remote controlled aircraft, that it was an inside job--and guess what? no amount of facts or investigation will sway them. Even Bin Laden CLAIMING he did it doesn't matter.

You ever hear of Masada? The Jews surrounded by the Romans? How they drew lots and killed themselves rather than surrender? Ever wonder why the Davidians were flying the flag with the Star of David on it--the Masada flag? Now you know.

pato

You know when the Feds come rolling into a church early on a Sunday Morning, just like a bunch of frickin' Japs on their way to Pearl Harbor, blaring over loudspeakers, 'This is NOT an assault, This is, repeat, NOT an assault', well, you can be forgiven for believing anything that you wish concerning the government's conduct!

Anything!

So, if there was even a hint that any survivors were rounded up and machine-gunned, I wouldn't hesitate to believe it in the least.

That's the reasonable and quite expected result when the .gov folks act in the manner they acted at Mount Carmel Church.

Who lied first in this debacle?

David Koresh or David Aguilera?

That's an easy one....davekopel.com/Waco/LawRev/warrant.htm

And the .gov folks have never quit lying.

Eric The(AsIf)Hun

OK! So Delta wasn't there?....But wait, Deltas support staff WAS there, and you admit it...

...So Delta force sent THEIR support staff to assist the FBI and ATF, but their were NO Delta "Operators" there!?!

mm-huh yeah OK Somethin' ain't right about that

I hope you guys did not pay full retail for those propoganda videos.

Quoted: You know when the Feds come rolling into a church early on a Sunday Morning, just like a bunch of frickin' Japs on their way to Pearl Harbor, blaring over loudspeakers, 'This is NOT an assault, This is, repeat, NOT an assault', well, you can be forgiven for believing anything that you wish concerning the government's conduct! Anything! So, if there was even a hint that any survivors were rounded up and machine-gunned, I wouldn't hesitate to believe it in the least. That's the reasonable and quite expected result when the .gov folks act in the manner they acted at Mount Carmel Church. Who lied first in this debacle? David Koresh or David Aguilera? That's an easy one....davekopel.com/Waco/LawRev/warrant.htm And the .gov folks have never quit lying. Eric The(AsIf)Hun

To me the truth about what happened is way more disturbing than all the other made up propoganda.

The warrant should never have been issued in the first place.

damn this an old thread

Quoted: Quoted: Uh, what is the point of that, unkempt1? sounds like he is trying to spoonfeed us  the wink wink nudge nudge "official" JBT version. If we're being lied to, it's by his kind IMVHO

Dude, this thread made it 20-some pages without people playing stupid 'mess with the quotes' games; don't start now. Regardless, you aren't going to find me gobbling up those hilarious attempts at propaganda that you guys are drooling over.

I have $10 that says they will spank out a few more of these SHOCKING REVELATIONS OF THE TRUTH!111 movies. Hey, as long as they have a such an undiscerning audience, why not?

Quoted: As I've said before, find the "missing" evidence and put these questions to rest.

The "missing" evidence isn't missing........there are federal employees who know EXACTLY where it is!

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Uh, what is the point of that, unkempt1? sounds like he is trying to spoonfeed us  the wink wink nudge nudge "official" JBT version. If we're being lied to, it's by his kind IMVHO Dude, this thread made it 20-some pages without people playing stupid 'mess with the quotes' games; don't start now. Regardless, you aren't going to find me gobbling up those hilarious attempts at propaganda that you guys are drooling over. I have $10 that says they will spank out a few more of these SHOCKING REVELATIONS OF THE TRUTH!111 movies. Hey, as long as they have a such an undiscerning audience, why not?

 dude, don't even try to "tell" me how and when to post. skip over it if you don't like it.

Quoted: There is a vast difference between guys in fatigues standing near armor with the context unknown, and the claim of agents firing into the compound.

You've been claiming all along that there were NO agents near the compound during the final assault, therefore there couldn't be any agents shooting into the compound. Well, we have videographic PROOF that there WERE agents close to the compound as it was assaulted and on fire. So, which is it? No agents at all or are you now changing your story now that evidence of agents being present was provided? So we've gone from "No agents" to "OK, they were there but we don't know what they were doing." How far does this rabbit hole go?

Hell, I have a picture of me standing next to a Bradley up there--I suppose that makes me one of the shooters, right? Of course, it was taken days before the 19th and almost a 1/2 mile from the compound, but why split hairs?

And Michael Douglas was "there" the night John Lennon was killed. Two blocks away.

Nobody has stepped up and claimed anything--other than a film maker that wasn't there. The Davidian survivors haven't, their attornies haven't, not a single LEO has--and there were HUNDREDS there--even Johnston--the US Attorney that would know--hasn't said anything.

I counted NUMEROUS Davidian survivors, their attornies, federal, state and local LEOs who appeared in those movies. Hell, I was wondering when the parade of interviewees was going to stop and here you are saying that NOBODY has said a peep about any of this.

Doesn't really matter anyway. I'm not going to convince you of anything. No matter what gobblin actually sees on his uncertified and highly subjective testing--he will claim that the experts and the Viper program are wrong and that he can now "prove" that the FLIR flashes were gunfire. Let's don't even account for the FACTS that no agents were firing, the timing of the gunfire is too long to actually be gunfire, and that there are no dead bodies--as claimed--to back up that ridiculous theory.

That's funny, you claim to stand by facts, evidence, and scientific study of the events that happened at Waco...but will discount and try to discredit anyone who tries to do just that. With all this talk of cultists and drinking Kool-aid, I think you need to examine what's in your    cup.

OMG!

What a bunch of back stepping by the ATF.


I have soooooooooooooooooooo much to say on this and Ruby Ridge, it would take up about 2 books.


The ATF caused the death of those people. PERIOD.

Quoted: Quoted: In the regular video clip, you can clearly see agents in the yard standing by the armored vehicles. Plain as day. Quoted: Actually, you don't "clearly" see anything--especially two people--because they weren't there. I posted this link in the other thread and pato replied, "...that video is very grainy and I didn't see anyone behind that tank." Is pato the only one here who doesn't see anyone behind that tank? I see a man standing, aiming something... like a long gun... in the direction of the flames, for about 7 seconds, and then he ducks down behind the tank. Does anyone else see what I see? pato would have us believe we don't see what we think we see... "because they weren't there." I think he is either blind or is being extremely disingenuous, or he's drunk on government Kool-Aid.

To the extreme left of the vid you can clearly see someone and that someone is crouching down and looks like he is indeed shooting a rifle in the direction of the compound and away from the tank. This isn't the color video I'm talking about. I'm referring to the video from Waco: The New Revelation that shows multiple agents standing by armored vehicles that are near the compound as it is burning.

But I digress. There was no one there, so therefore no one could be shooting anything.

Quoted: Quoted: As I've said before, find the "missing" evidence and put these questions to rest. The "missing" evidence isn't missing........there are federal employees who know EXACTLY where it is!

I'm sure there are those who know where it is, that's why I put "missing" in quotes.

If agreeing with Schumer, Reno, Hubbell and Clinton is where pato wants to be then let him lie there...he made his own bed. Schumer, Reno, Hubbell and Clinton wouldn't know the truth if it hit them between the eyes...some people are just that way.

pato, if there is ALL this proof the Davidians started the fire, then why were they NEVER charged with arson? When they were charged with murder, a jury of their peers found them not guilty. The jury saw through the government smokescreen. The evidence that the federal government lied its way through this is there for you to see, like the men beside the armored vehicle...but you didn't see them either. The men were never there...just ghosts...mirages...shadows...reflections. What is clearly a blast hole on the top of the concrete vault is there for you to see, too.

As far as the video The New Revelation, being lies, conjecture and innuendo, it's basically Congressional hearings, phone transcripts/audio tape, reports (heavily redacted), and video of what happened. I guess if it doesn't line up with what the ATF & FBI said, then it's all lies.  After all, our benevolent government would never lie to us, right?

And how about that missing evidence...turned up yet?

What about the schroeder guy that was shot twice in the head execution style? It wasn't during the raid but during the seige.


Also, in the 2nd film you cna cleary see a door mount MG on one of the helicopters.


People also try to equate this to the 9/11 conspiracy guys. I have also looked at the facts and films on that issue as well. but there is so much phyisical evidence that shows the only conspiracy was the one planned by the terrorists. In this instance the fact that much of the phyisical evidence that would clear or condemn the actions of the ATF and FBI has been destroyed / missing alone begs to question what actually happened.

How do you charge dead men with arson?

I never said there weren't agents there; I even said that HRT agents made entry into the underground bus looking for the women and children Howell said would be there. Gobblin, you should go back and read my posts more clearly--what I said was that there are no agents where the FLIR flashes are. I have repeatedly said that and I will say it over and over again. If you guys want to believe that video shows an agent shooting at the compound--well, if you tell yourself something over and over again--eventually you begin to believe it, I suppose.

The FLIR video does not show anyone near the "flashes". The photography of the same place shows that there is nobody there. The "grenade" flash that  McNulty claims is there is obviously a reflection of heat--because the video of the same location shows that the "flash" comes from a window area of a fallen wall. The "spots" McNulty claims are agents on the FLIR video never move-even as a tank rolls over them. The timing of the flashes is too long to be gunshots--McNulty, when faced with this evidence tried to replicate the effect in a dusty environment--except that he could't get the "flashes" to remain unless there was so much dust that it was obscured. Then, he failed to account for the fact that there wasn't that much dust on the 19th--thanks to the 30-40mph winds.
Folks, Mr. McNulty lied to you. It's as plain as the nose on your face. He is trying to sell videotapes, not investigate in any meaningful way. If he was investigating for real--he wouldn't have claimed the Justice report said that the Davidian bodies (15 of them) were found near the flashes--when, in fact, they were not and the Justice report doesn't say that. Again, Mr. McNulty lied to serve his own purpose--making money.

The Davidian lawyers were present for the Danforth investigation--why didn't they make a scene over the findings? C'mon--they're LAWYERS for God's sake--they would make MILLIONS if they could prove that the government did what you guys claim is "clearly" visible. Ask Eric the Conspiratorial Hun--I hear he's a paid mouthpiece---why hasn't he taken up the Davidian cause? If it's so clear, if the evidence is so overwhelming, Eric the investigating Hun would be a rich man--all he has to do is take his evidence to court--the statute of limitations doesn't expire on murder.

Ok, the Federal employees know where the missing evidence is? This is the same Federal system that couldn't stop CIA leaks, didn't respond well to Katrina, pays $400 for hammers, and, despite trying their damndest--couldn't manage to kill everyone in the Davidian compound despite having 51 days to pull it off. I mean--you guys would have us believe they had Delta operators crawling arounf inside with explosives, FBI bloodthirsty marksmen on the outside, and scores of M-16 firing agents on the outside gunning the hapless Davidians as they tried to escape--but somehow they couldn't get them all?
If the gubmint is that incompetent--don't you think those tapes and the door would have showed up in someone's garage sale by now?

Now, as to Delta. Since many of you are former members of that storied unit, as evidenced by your knowledge of all things military and the myriad of "those are terrible tactics" posts--then you should know that Delta has a communications component that is not operational--that is--they are not shooters. They are technicians, albeit very good ones--but they are not shape charge plating, FLIR avoiding, supermen.
The claim that Delta, and DEVGRU were there was investigated and shown to be untrue, with the exception of the communications component that was present at the command post. They admitted that in court--not a big surprise--but apparently more food for the conspiracy theorists. Maybe it will also suprise you--but it shouldn't--that Delta and HRT work closely together in training --thus it is no surprise that the commo specialists helped out during a protracted standoff.

So, I guess that Michael Douglas remains a suspect in Lennon's death these years later even though it has been investigated and the true killer found and jailed? That's an excellent analogy, Gobblin--thanks for bringing it up.

What I said about the lawyers, the survivors, etc was that none of them has claimed that they were fired on while escaping. None had gunshot wounds--ALL were treated medically and with respect when they came out. They can claim what they want--and what they are expected to say under the circumstances--but I haven't seen any of them--nor did I on the 19th--claim that agents prevented them from exiting or harmed them in any way.

I do stand by the facts, Gobblin--it's you that doggedly pursues anything, no matter how illogical and ridiculous, that goes along with your theory that two separate government agencies conspired to kill the Davidians, somehow managed to get hundreds of State and local LEO's to conspire with them--got the survivors to toe the line--got the Davidian lawyers to shut up--AND have managed to keep it all in line for 13 years without a crack in the armor. However, YOU experienced sleuths, along with the impregnable McNulty--the epitome of objective investigative journalism--have cracked the case but just can't get an audience that cares.
You know why? Because the vast majority of the public believes, like I do, that Howell was a nutjob that planned and implemented the series of events that led to the tragedy. Each time you get redfaced and angry about something that just didn't happen the way you think--you just make people shake their heads and think "poor, deluded man--he watched a couple of videos and now he ain't right anymore".

Schroeder wasn't shot "execution" style. Jeez, you guys never give up do you? Truth be damned, you have to make it fit your view.

pato

One more thing--I did review the link--I was looking for someone standing behind the tank--like the FLIR claims--not to the left of it.
I saw the person by the tank. It is impossible to tell what he is doing.

However, on further review--one can clearly see that the time on the date stamp is 13:41 hrs--well after the compound was burned to the ground and all inside had either escaped or died.

It's just not turning out the way you want, is it?

pato

Quoted: It's just not turning out the way you want, is it? pato

Nor for you.

You can do the song and dance all you want.

The ATF/FBI caused the death of everyone involved.

Be a man and and admit it.

Quoted: How do you charge dead men with arson? -snip- pato

They charged the remaining Davidians with murder...jury saw through the government lies. So given they charged them with murder and conspiracy to commit murder, what would stop the government from charging the remaining Davidians with arson and conspiracy to commit arson, too? Probably thought the jury wouldn't buy that one either. Your argument doesn't add up. You know as well as I do that prosecutors throw the book at people, charging them with anything and everything that might stick when they want a conviction.

So where's the key pieces of the "missing" evidence? If it was some insignificant pieces of evidence missing, I could see your point...but it's the tapes of the initial raid that caught what happened at the front door, and the front door that's missing. Find the "missing" evidence and put all this to rest...if ATF didn't do anything wrong, produce the tapes and the door.

How about you guys hang out a while and high five each other a while on who has the bestest conspiracy theory yet.

I have come to the stark realization--apparently I'm a slow leaner--that nothing I say or post is going to change your minds.

I don't have the "missing" evidence" and I don't know where it might be. How about you contact an attorney and sue the gubmint in a FOIA suit and see what you come up with?

Hell, here's an idea--how about one of you legal scholars contact the US Attorney's office and ask why they weren't charged with arson? Maybe it's because the gubmint KNEW that the FBI set the fire and they didn't think they could get away with it? Yeah, riiight.

I have grown tired of this lame thread and posting stuff time and again so you guys can throw idiots like McNulty and Linda Thompson up like they have some kind of corner on the truth.
You want to believe them?--by all means, do so. Knock yourselves out.
You are wrong, but don't let that tidbit stop you.

Vernon Howell got exactly what he deserved and exactly what he asked for. The real tragedy is that he took those innocent children with him. The guy thought he was CHRIST, for Pete's sake--and yes, he DID claim it many times when talking to the negotiators.

pato

Quoted: How do you charge dead men with arson?

LOL. The same way you charge them with murder and attempted murder of federal agents.

Ok, the Federal employees know where the missing evidence is? This is the same Federal system that couldn't stop CIA leaks, didn't respond well to Katrina, pays $400 for hammers, and, despite trying their damndest--couldn't manage to kill everyone in the Davidian compound despite having 51 days to pull it off. If the gubmint is that incompetent--don't you think those tapes and the door would have showed up in someone's garage sale by now?

LOL. So in your opinion the .gov is incompetent when it comes to the CIA, hurricane relief, budgetary issues etc, etc, etc but Waco was a sterling example of how government operates at the behest of the people? Are you for real?

So, I guess that Michael Douglas remains a suspect in Lennon's death these years later even though it has been investigated and the true killer found and jailed? That's an excellent analogy, Gobblin--thanks for bringing it up.

It's a great analogy when both you and Douglas claim to have superior grasps on the facts of your respective experiences...when both of you were admittedly 1/2 mile away from the events you are referring to. When it comes to "being there," either you were *right there* and saw the whole thing go down in front of you...or you weren't. In this case, a miss is as good as a mile.

I do stand by the facts, Gobblin--it's you that doggedly pursues anything, no matter how illogical and ridiculous...

I pursue the truth and am not afraid of other people conducting experiments or research to test the many theories being bandied about by everyone involved.

Unlike you.

Because the vast majority of the public believes, like I do, that Howell was a nutjob that planned and implemented the series of events that led to the tragedy.

Ahhhhhh. The only thing missing from the demonization of Vernon Howell is you painting him as a racist nazi. Other than that, you and your government goons hit all the bases pretty well:

A. He was manufacturing machine guns (play that card first and run with it as far as you can)
B. He was a religious fanatic, a wacko who may have had numerous wives (another good mileage maker)
C. He was a druglord who ran a drug lab (better than the first two because illegal drugs are the devil)
D. He was a pedophile (when all else fails, throw this one out, it's a can't miss bullseye when you want to bag someone in the court of public opinion)

I expect nothing less from our government when the it decides I    need to be silenced or "dealt with," for whatever reason. The formula works, and everybody knows it.

They'll come for US like that, too!

Turn in your guns OR ELSE!

Because, for the umpteenth time, it was a SEARCH warrant!

Jeez.

I am done with this. See you guys in the funny papers.

pato

Quoted: ...I am a Christian. I beleive that the guy was wrong. He was a loon. He was NOT a true Christian and was comitting a serious sin by even claiming to be Christ. Last I checked though, the Constitution says he had a right to worship in whatever way he wished. He surely didnt deserve death for it. Neither did those with him.

What the heck does 'deserve' have to do with it? They killed themselves. The only victims in that building were the children, and blame for their deaths can be placed squarely at the feet of their nutjob parents.

Quoted: -snip- Vernon Howell got exactly what he deserved and exactly what he asked for. The real tragedy is that he took those innocent children with him. The guy thought he was CHRIST, for Pete's sake--and yes, he DID claim it many times when talking to the negotiators. pato

That's exactly the problem I have with guys like you. Who made you judge, jury, and executioner over Vernon Howell? What happened to innocent until proven guilty? In this country we charge people with a crime, the accused goes before a judge, gets a trial by a jury of his peers, and then is judged on the evidence presented to the jury. If found guilty, an appeals court then reviews the proceedings to see if they were legal, fair, and just. If they were, the accused serves his/her sentence...if they weren't, another trial is granted the accused.

So who made you/ATF/FBI/Delta judge, jury and executioner over Vernon Howell? So what if he said he's Jesus Christ? I see crazy people every day on the streets of Chicago...some of them think they're Christ, too. Should they be put to death? Who cares what he claimed...apparently in your eyes that gives you/ATF/FBI/Delta the right to take their lives.

Boy, I sure sleep better at night knowing ATF/FBI/Delta killed that crazy man...who knows, he might have killed all those women and children.  

28 pages of Shit i already know.

I like how when you say "did they find meth, MGs , Bombs , or whatever they where searching for? they come back with david was this or that, but then when you say if david was the subject why not pick him up some where else? they say it was a search warrent.

Quoted: Quoted: In the regular video clip, you can clearly see agents in the yard standing by the armored vehicles. Plain as day. Quoted: Actually, you don't "clearly" see anything--especially two people--because they weren't there. I posted this link in the other thread and pato replied, "...that video is very grainy and I didn't see anyone behind that tank." Is pato the only one here who doesn't see anyone behind that tank? I see a man standing, aiming something... like a long gun... in the direction of the flames, for about 7 seconds, and then he ducks down behind the tank. Does anyone else see what I see? pato would have us believe we don't see what we think we see... "because they weren't there." I think he is either blind or is being extremely disingenuous, or he's drunk on government Kool-Aid.

No, Big Bear, I cannot clearly see the guy on the left side of the tank shooting from an offhand position, who ducks down behind the left side of the tank and then pops back up.....

Quoted: I have come to the stark realization--apparently I'm a slow leaner--that nothing I say or post is going to change your minds.

That's because you are full of shit.


You are a slow learner, let me repeat myself - YOU ARE FULL OF SHIT.


Come back after you've wiped Janet Reno's spooge off your chin.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: In the regular video clip, you can clearly see agents in the yard standing by the armored vehicles. Plain as day. Quoted: Actually, you don't "clearly" see anything--especially two people--because they weren't there. I posted this link in the other thread and pato replied, "...that video is very grainy and I didn't see anyone behind that tank." Is pato the only one here who doesn't see anyone behind that tank? I see a man standing, aiming something... like a long gun... in the direction of the flames, for about 7 seconds, and then he ducks down behind the tank. Does anyone else see what I see? pato would have us believe we don't see what we think we see... "because they weren't there." I think he is either blind or is being extremely disingenuous, or he's drunk on government Kool-Aid. No, Big Bear, I cannot clearly see the guy on the left side of the tank shooting from an offhand position, who ducks down behind the left side of the tank and then pops back up.....

from soho down to brighton........

Quoted: Schroeder wasn't shot "execution" style. Jeez, you guys never give up do you? Truth be damned, you have to make it fit your view.

http://www.wizardsofaz.com/waco/pg15.gif

the fact that his cap was missing at the time of Autopsy and was not provided with the body....

the body that was left to rot in the field for several days.  still looking for more information i can link other than quotes.


The next guy dead was shroeder while trying to return to Mt. Carmel. One of the ATF agents said he heard RIFLE fire first. Specifically RIFLE, not 9mm pistol fire first. Schroeder only had a pistol in 9mm. He fired back but was quickly taken down. One person that was traveling with him surrendered to the agents. As they were arresting the guy that surrendered they heard two more shots coming from the direction of where shroeder's body was.



I dont think the atf went in there wanting to kill people. I think the ATF planned a raid that they could "sell" to the media. and carried on with it despite the fact they lost the element of suprise. More than likely the ATF shot first, killing the dogs which most likely started the gun battle.  The Davidians could have ambushed the ATF team as they approached or even when they were retreating.

The ATF was in my opinion criminally neglegent in almost every way in that raid. Their logisitics along with their communications were non-existant. They had no back-up plan, no way to call for medical help, no contact with local law enforcement during the failed raid. The planners of the raid failed their own guys.  
EDIT : please dont stoop to personal attacks. i want to discuss this and dont want a locked thread

I think I know what was going on here.  Pato was, in fact, at Waco.  He survived, and has since passed away from natural causes.  For his sentence in purgatory, he was required to come here and argue the ATF's position.