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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Shooting While Advancing Forward (Page 2 of 2)

Posted: 6/20/2007 7:59:34 AM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:

Quoted:
It is limited in use for a civilian, but a tool in the tool box. But, if you have an intruder in your house, and you have to clear your home, it could be handy. Example, in my parent's home there is a bedroom downstairs. Waiting upstairs is not an option if family or guests are downstairs with an intruder. It would be necessary to go on the offensive.

ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=27&t=212137

Selfless plug.

OK..Let's play devil's advocate here:

Your family is downstairs and there is an intruder in your home. Why wouldn't you seek cover and concealment rather than exposing yourself while advancing firing your weapon? If I have to clear my home(Done it several times already) I will stay away from that fatal funnel and look to conceal myself from any bad guys waiting for me. Slice the pie

So if there is someone has broken into your house and some of your family is downstairs you are going to hide upstairs with a rifle while they have their way with your family? WTF?

Not what I said at all..You DO go downstairs, but to find cover rather than advancing and opening yourself up to the fatal funnel. What good is your family if you're dead and you have the gun? I'm saying advancing WHILE shooting vs. placing yourself in a strategic position and engaging your target.

Posted: 6/20/2007 8:03:48 AM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Then I sat there for about 10 minutes trying to figure out under what scenario this application would fit in the civilian world.

Are you serious?

I can see someone being brought up on charges if you get into a gun fight and you are advancing rather than retreating..(Going for the kill so to speak)

There is no law I am aware of that says you can only use lethal force when in reverse....

What if you actively seek out the bad guy while shooting? How are you going to prove he was shooting while you are leaving a trail of empties as you advance? You are in reality, "going in for the kill".. Do you think a "reasonable person" would look at this as a Bozo no-no and may (and I said MAY) be grounds for a felony charge of some sort?

Posted: 6/20/2007 8:24:10 AM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
Walking towards a threat while shooting also has a huge psychological effect on the target. Most dirt bags expect people to run in the opposite direction.

J

Who'd a thought it.

Posted: 6/20/2007 9:02:20 AM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
yes they are crazy far off never gonna happen things...but so is being robed so I do it just incase...and its fun to change things up

I wear a robe all the time, thanks.

Posted: 6/20/2007 9:05:14 AM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
What if you actively seek out the bad guy while shooting? How are you going to prove he was shooting while you are leaving a trail of empties as you advance? You are in reality, "going in for the kill".. Do you think a "reasonable person" would look at this as a Bozo no-no and may (and I said MAY) be grounds for a felony charge of some sort?

You have to stay alive for someone to apply the "reasonable man" standard to your actions.

Mindset. Get some.

Posted: 6/20/2007 9:09:02 AM EDT

[#6]

I sure as heck do it in paint ball.

Posted: 6/20/2007 9:10:13 AM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
Yes, I practice this.

There was a case in Baltimore City where two guys waited in ambush to catch the crook who had been ripping them off.
They waited til he came in through the window, then advanced on him, firing.
They were convicted of manslaughter, IIRC.

In a self-defense situation it doesn't look good.

Posted: 6/20/2007 9:17:20 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Yes, I practice this.

There was a case in Baltimore City where two guys waited in ambush to catch the crook who had been ripping them off.
They waited til he came in through the window, then advanced on him, firing.
They were convicted of manslaughter, IIRC.

In a self-defense situation it doesn't look good.

I'd be willing to bet that there were quite a few other factors involved in that conviction than them simply "advancing" on the guy.

Posted: 6/20/2007 9:19:56 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Yes, I practice this.

There was a case in Baltimore City where two guys waited in ambush to catch the crook who had been ripping them off.
They waited til he came in through the window, then advanced on him, firing.
They were convicted of manslaughter, IIRC.

In a self-defense situation it doesn't look good.

I'd be willing to bet that there were quite a few other factors involved in that conviction than them simply "advancing" on the guy.

There was one other factor, and I noted it.
They waited in ambush for him, and then advanced on him while firing.
The combination of these two factors is what lead to their being charged.
Do you know the detectives who worked that case?

I did not say that a civilian would find themselves in trouble, only that it doesn't look good.
Advancing on the threat takes away some of the "in fear for my life" defense.

Posted: 6/20/2007 9:45:23 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
What if you actively seek out the bad guy while shooting?

What do you mean "actively seek out"?

If you have a weapon out and you are pulling the trigger, you have already found the bad guy and ought to have reasonable cause to fear for your life, which is why you are pulling the trigger in the first place.

How are you going to prove he was shooting while you are leaving a trail of empties as you advance?

What on earth are you asking?

Are you saying that if there is a bad-guy corpse with a gun in his former hand at 3:00 am, when the cops show up they are going to look at the shell casings and say "Aha! You moved toward the bad guy, and are thus guilty of murder!!!"??

I've never even heard of such a thing.

You are in reality, "going in for the kill".. Do you think a "reasonable person" would look at this as a Bozo no-no and may (and I said MAY) be grounds for a felony charge of some sort?

A reasonable person isn't going to get wrapped around the axle based on what direction you were moving in AS YOU ARE ENGAGING A LEGITIMATE LETHAL THREAT WITH REASONABLE FORCE.

We're not talking about chasing an unarmed guy who attempted to break into your house down the street for three blocks and then plugging him execution style from close range. That's not the same thing as merely shooting while you are moving forward.

Posted: 6/20/2007 9:46:50 AM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Yes, I practice this.

There was a case in Baltimore City where two guys waited in ambush to catch the crook who had been ripping them off.
They waited til he came in through the window, then advanced on him, firing.
They were convicted of manslaughter, IIRC.

In a self-defense situation it doesn't look good.

I'd be willing to bet that there were quite a few other factors involved in that conviction than them simply "advancing" on the guy.

Ya think!

I'm sure if they had run backwards while shooting they would be free men!

Posted: 6/20/2007 9:47:42 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
Advancing on the threat takes away some of the "in fear for my life" defense.

How exactly?

Posted: 6/20/2007 9:54:46 AM EDT

[#13]

unless you have predicted ALL possible tactical scenarios that may occur to you in the future and have ruled this one out, it can't hurt to practice it and have it as an option in your toolbox.

Good article, BTW.

Posted: 6/20/2007 10:01:30 AM EDT

[#14]

Yes, in the form of box drills etc at carbine and at advanced pistol.

This would be useful if, for example, your kid were in a room away from you and you needed to advance while engaging multiple targets. I am sure there are plenty of .Mil or LEO situations.

Realistically, this is just another tool for the toolbox that I probably not have occasion to use in a threat situation, but still good to learn new things if just for the challenge of making the hits.

Posted: 6/20/2007 10:01:43 AM EDT

[#15]

Not all States are "Retreat" states.

Some have what is known as "Castle Doctrine" where retreat is not necessary, and use of force while advancing to stop a threat to life or lives, is entirely legal.

Then again, if the most survivable thing to do is to advance, who cares what the prosecutor thinks or does. You're going to court either way.......unless yer dead.

S-28

Posted: 6/20/2007 10:06:09 AM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
Advancing on the threat might under certain circumstances takes away some of the "in fear for my life" defense. Like if I laid in wait for someone so I could advance on them and shoot them.

Fixed it for you.

Posted: 6/20/2007 10:07:01 AM EDT

[#17]

It also makes you an increasingly larger target.

Civi's aren't SWAT, but we should be able to move and shoot multi-directionally in a dynamic environment.

Posted: 6/20/2007 10:18:16 AM EDT

[#18]

Yes I do. I practice using the "groucho" walk. Handguns, AR15, shotgun, etc. I'd rather have practice it and not 'need" it than need to know it have not learned it.

You need to be able to move in all directions when in combat. Not just side to side and backwards. Forward, angled forward, up stairs, down stairs, etc.

Practice.

Posted: 6/20/2007 10:21:08 AM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
It also makes you an increasingly larger target.

Civi's aren't SWAT, but we should be able to move and shoot multi-directionally in a dynamic environment.

Also makes enemy a bigger target too. I know a retired LAPD officer who had his share of shootings. In fact his hearing sucks due to the those shootings. His advice(he also put a standard disclaimer that his experience is not universal) is to move into the threat, eliminate it and then look for second target. Troubles come in pairs.

And yes, I do practice moving to front.

Posted: 6/20/2007 10:33:01 AM EDT

[#20]

for a civilian might not be the best idea but for what i do, its vital. dont give up ground youve taken, close with and kill. walk back and trip your dead, turn to run your dead, dont shoot your dead. in close fighting its more important to knock your enemy down than it is to hit or kill him, its easier to do that if your close and have momentum

Posted: 6/20/2007 11:23:09 AM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Yes, I practice this.

There was a case in Baltimore City where two guys waited in ambush to catch the crook who had been ripping them off.
They waited til he came in through the window, then advanced on him, firing.
They were convicted of manslaughter, IIRC.

In a self-defense situation it doesn't look good.

Doc, I don't know where you're coming from on this.

It was manslaughter cause they waited and ambushed him. If they had ambushed him while walking backwards, it would have still been manslaughter.

Posted: 6/20/2007 11:37:33 AM EDT

[#22]

...a "tactical wedgie".

Posted: 6/20/2007 11:45:26 AM EDT

[#23]

If the bad guy is right handed, move quickly toward him at an angle to your right. It will cause him to have to shoot across his body (unless he moves as well) and will throw off his aim.

Like others have stated. If it is a deadly force situation, it is actually permitted to use deadly force, even if you are advancing and appear to be aggressive.

Posted: 6/20/2007 11:49:15 AM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
If you keep pushing forward, you throw them off balance mentally.
..........................

I recently found a bayonet mfg in Nagoya for my Arisaka 99. If I had to clear my house, the sight of me in my boxers charging down the hall screaming Banzai would be sure to get some sort of response.

?

Posted: 6/20/2007 11:50:07 AM EDT

[#25]

I also practice this. Old habits die hard.

I have always trained to take the fight forward, and always will.

EDIT: Its a mental thing to effect your enemy, moving forward puts them going back. There is a difference between aggression and being on the offensive. In addition, it gives you a stronger sense of purpose when on the advance.

Posted: 6/20/2007 11:51:16 AM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Yes, I practice this.

There was a case in Baltimore City where two guys waited in ambush to catch the crook who had been ripping them off.
They waited til he came in through the window, then advanced on him, firing.
They were convicted of manslaughter, IIRC.

In a self-defense situation it doesn't look good.

I'd be willing to bet that there were quite a few other factors involved in that conviction than them simply "advancing" on the guy.

Ya think!

I'm sure if they had run backwards while shooting they would be free men!

Of course they would.

Posted: 6/20/2007 11:51:57 AM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Advancing on the threat takes away some of the "in fear for my life" defense.

How exactly?

Indeed.

Posted: 6/20/2007 12:02:38 PM EDT

[#28]

I practice it because it is not easy to do and because if there is a situation where they are between me and people who's lives depend on me I need to get there right damn now. Cover is great but stopping the threat is rather high on the list too and he might be in cover himself.

Posted: 6/20/2007 12:02:45 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Yes, I practice this.

There was a case in Baltimore City where two guys waited in ambush to catch the crook who had been ripping them off.
They waited til he came in through the window, then advanced on him, firing.
They were convicted of manslaughter, IIRC.

In a self-defense situation it doesn't look good.

Doc, I don't know where you're coming from on this.

It was manslaughter cause they waited and ambushed him. If they had ambushed him while walking backwards, it would have still been manslaughter.

Just going off what I was told by the detectives who worked the case.
Had they merely lain in wait, it would have been impossible for the police to know it was an ambush.
The detectives felt that because the two men advanced on the intruder as they fired, it showed that this was an act committed out of malice, not out of self-preservation.

Posted: 6/20/2007 12:11:25 PM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Yes, I practice this.

Please tell me why.. When do you think you will need to use this practice?

What happens if someone breaks into your home/business and you need to advance to save your wife or kid? That is why it should be practiced.

Posted: 6/20/2007 12:27:48 PM EDT

[#31]

What if you are surrounded by people trying to kill you. you would have to shoot while advancing in any direction you chose.

Posted: 6/20/2007 12:45:33 PM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
What if you are surrounded by people trying to kill you. you would have to shoot while advancing in any direction you chose.

Don't assume everyone lives in a 3 dimensional world.

After reading this thread, I think I'm going to start training our SWAT guys to make entries into the back of a home first, and then retreat out the front door while walking backwards the whole time. Apparently, it's safer and prevents us from liability.

Posted: 6/20/2007 6:49:55 PM EDT

[#33]

Lateral movement is probnably of equal or greater utility, but it's hard to teach on a range deck... hence the reason it isn't stressed.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Shooting While Advancing Forward (Page 2 of 2)

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