The Box O' Truth - 5.56 Military Ammo Accuracy - Page 2

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - The Box O' Truth - 5.56 Military Ammo Accuracy (Page 2 of 3)

Posted: 9/4/2005 4:59:52 PM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Could you shoot a few rounds of Wolf downrange just to compare? Please?

I've shot Wolf and it is about a 2 to 3 minute ammo.

Fine for plinking, but not extremely accurate.

Did you get to CRONO it or any of the others?
It seems much of the currently posted data is getting, well, dated.

Posted: 9/4/2005 5:04:10 PM EDT

[#2]

2. Anyone that says they routinely shoot sub-MOA groups with iron sights and military ammo has a problem with truthfulness.

Never has more truth been spoken on this board, I tip my hat to your veracity sir!

Posted: 9/4/2005 5:06:45 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Could you shoot a few rounds of Wolf downrange just to compare? Please?

I've shot Wolf and it is about a 2 to 3 minute ammo.

Fine for plinking, but not extremely accurate.

Did you get to CRONO it or any of the others?
It seems much of the currently posted data is getting, well, dated.

I do not own a chronograph.

Wish I did.

Posted: 9/4/2005 5:08:55 PM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
I do not own a chronograph.

Wish I did. <-------------You didn't shoot it did you?

A freind of mine did that to his

Posted: 9/4/2005 5:13:02 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
2. Anyone that says they routinely shoot sub-MOA groups with iron sights and military ammo has a problem with truthfulness.

Never has more truth been spoken on this board, I tip my hat to your veracity sir!

Your comment reminded me of an actual quote from a trial. I had to look it up.

"Question: Well, are you aquainted with her reputation in this community for truth and veracity?

Answer: Now, I will tell you. I wouldn't believe a thing that she say, but as to that other. I ain't never laid a hand on her. Some say she do and some say she don't. But I just don't know."

Posted: 9/4/2005 5:31:21 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I have been looking for a 24in upper, do you think with an extra 8 inches you could acheive a better result of the mil surp ammo?

I appreciate the queation, but will answer carefully.

I am always hesitant to answer questions where I do not have personal experience. You have asked such a question.

Some that I trust have said that shorter barrels vs. longer barrels do not necessarily mean anything regarding accuracy. The longer barrels will give higher velocity. But not necessarily better accuracy.

With mil spec ammo, I doubt that barrel length will make much difference in accuracy, but will make a difference in velocity.

Sorry for the "dance around", but I hate to give bad advice.

This is very true. It is fairly well known that with the Steyr AUG, the 16" barrel is more accurate than the 20" because of barrel harmonics.

Posted: 9/4/2005 5:40:10 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:

This is very true. It is fairly well known that with the Steyr AUG, the 16" barrel is more accurate than the 20" because of barrel harmonics.

My DPMS has a 16 inch barrel.

As you can see in the pictures, it seems to work just fine.

Posted: 9/4/2005 6:02:10 PM EDT

[#8]

Nice

Posted: 9/4/2005 6:16:40 PM EDT

[#9]

Another great OP post

Posted: 9/4/2005 7:22:26 PM EDT

[#10]

This is something I'ver known for years. I'm NOT being cocky.

As a competitive shooter, I've seem more than my fair share of winning targets and they all share one thing in common: A rifle is only so accurate.

OTOH, I've met a lot of shooters capable of shooting 500-50Xs with their mouths.

Nowhere in the world is there more out and out happy horseshit than there is in the world of shooting unless it's talking about how foxy the woman you woke up with was.

You guys would be astonished at how many so called 'Expert Marksmen' out there have heard their Mother in Philadelphia calling them when I offer them the opportunity to put it on paper. Most of these guys shoot .125 MOA OFFHAND with issue rifles and ball ammo, or so they say.

Makes you want to take them to the nearest farm and see if they can hit a bull in the ass with a canoe paddle!

One thing here about handloads: My custom handload for my rifle may/may not shoot well in yours.

I know, because I've tried it. In fact, when I rebarrel, I often have to work up another load. Harmonics, probably.

Good post, Old Painless.

ETA: One thing I HAVE noticed about issue rifles: Every third Tuesday, the makers make one single rifle in the lot that shoots issue ammo pretty good.

Then again, someone always seems to win the Lottery.

Posted: 9/4/2005 8:08:54 PM EDT

[#11]

+1 piccolo
As another HP shooter I see it on a regular basis. I manage to get some hot shot to the range (rarely though) and when I show them 300 yds they think it is at least 600 yds. :^) Many just have no idea of what distance they think they are shooting at when plinking. Guess that applies to their guess about group sizes or a lucky 3 shot group.
As mentioned barrel length within reason doesn't determine accuracy. Yes it does affect velocity and terminal ballistics, but with one exception...if the round goes subsonic at long range the accuracy does suffer from the transition through the sound barrier.
Lyn

Posted: 9/4/2005 8:13:35 PM EDT

[#12]

2 things.....

This makes me feel a LOT better about some of the performace I get out of my AR's

and

Group #8 is very impressive...excellent shooting

Posted: 9/4/2005 8:27:20 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
+1 piccolo
when I show them 300 yds they think it is at least 600 yds. :^) Lyn

These are the same guys that convince their wives that: 'This is six inches', he said, putting 2 inches between his thumb and index finger.

Posted: 9/4/2005 8:36:06 PM EDT

[#14]

I can confirm those Q3131 groups as not being batch specific. I did some testing with it too about 3 months ago and was getting about the same results. Around 2 inch groups and would get a handful of flyers well outside that.
So, as far as Q3131 goes, it wasnt just a batch anomaly.

Posted: 9/4/2005 9:02:25 PM EDT

[#15]

Nice work. There are many reasons why 5.56 NATO ammo isn't the best in accuracy but the number one reason is the base of the bullet. Sure, the meplat (nose) is usually uniform but the base of the bullet is MOST important. And poorly made boat tails are extremely bad for accuracy which is why all serious 100-200 yard benchrest shooters utilize plain based bullets. Since the FMJ is open based, there is some non-uniformity of the exposed lead which DOES affect accuracy.

Secondary bullet construction, mainly with the M855 bullets, is the non-uniformity of the steel penetrator. Jacket concentricity comes next.

For the most part, the charge is of fairly low order for extreme accuracy but it is tuned for maximum velocity which may or may not perform in any one rifle.

The rest of the details are just gnat poop in ground pepper. I bought a good lot of Winchester brass with sealed & crimped primers. 25 grains of H335 and a 52 grain Sierra makes for 1/2 MOA load in most rifles I have tried. The only difference between this load and Win Q3131 is the powder and bullet.

Posted: 9/4/2005 9:15:42 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Could you shoot a few rounds of Wolf downrange just to compare? Please?

I've shot Wolf and it is about a 2 to 3 minute ammo.

Fine for plinking, but not extremely accurate.

Did you get to CRONO it or any of the others?
It seems much of the currently posted data is getting, well, dated.

I do not own a chronograph.

Wish I did.

Maybe we should all chip in and send you a few bucks to get an Oehler with extra screens.

Outstanding work as usual!!!!

Posted: 9/4/2005 9:19:38 PM EDT

[#17]

I have shot some groups with SA that are as good as the ones you posted. That was with a scope and a rest, I stocked up with all I could find based on how well it shot. [Colt A2 rifle preban 1/7 twist] I have some match ammo made by a friend of mine who shoots at perry, but I cant shoot less then 3/4 to an inch and usually more. He swears it is 3/8s or less but I can't shoot that well no matter what. I do not doubt the ammo is capable of it tho as his .45 ammo is the most accurate I have ever shot. He has verified how good the SA is also, said he used to use it when it was cheap to train with as it was pretty darn good for the cost.

Posted: 9/4/2005 9:19:39 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Could you shoot a few rounds of Wolf downrange just to compare? Please?

I've shot Wolf and it is about a 2 to 3 minute ammo.

Fine for plinking, but not extremely accurate.

Did you get to CRONO it or any of the others?
It seems much of the currently posted data is getting, well, dated.

I do not own a chronograph.

Wish I did.

Maybe we should all chip in and send you a few bucks to get an Oehler with extra screens.

Outstanding work as usual!!!!

I could be bribed to furnish use of my chrono...yes, I have a spare set of functional screens (now).

Oehler's are nice but not necessarily the best bang for the buck.

Posted: 9/4/2005 10:20:09 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Could you shoot a few rounds of Wolf downrange just to compare? Please?

I've shot Wolf and it is about a 2 to 3 minute ammo.

Fine for plinking, but not extremely accurate.

ALL the Wolf I have shot groups like figure #8

Posted: 9/4/2005 11:10:40 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Could you shoot a few rounds of Wolf downrange just to compare? Please?

I've shot Wolf and it is about a 2 to 3 minute ammo.

Fine for plinking, but not extremely accurate.

ALL the Wolf I have shot groups like figure #8

At 10 meters, right?

Posted: 9/5/2005 4:42:29 AM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
As a competitive shooter, I've seem more than my fair share of winning targets and they all share one thing in common: A rifle is only so accurate.

OTOH, I've met a lot of shooters capable of shooting 500-50Xs with their mouths.

Nowhere in the world is there more out and out happy horseshit than there is in the world of shooting unless it's talking about how foxy the woman you woke up with was.

You guys would be astonished at how many so called 'Expert Marksmen' out there have heard their Mother in Philadelphia calling them when I offer them the opportunity to put it on paper. Most of these guys shoot .125 MOA OFFHAND with issue rifles and ball ammo, or so they say.

Makes you want to take them to the nearest farm and see if they can hit a bull in the ass with a canoe paddle!

My buddy Tman always says, "One of these days, some guy on the forum is going to talk about his 1/2 inch groups and he's going to live within 100 miles of here. I'm going to call his bluff with a steak dinner as the bet and we're going to have a good meal."

Small groups are a lot easier when there are no witnesses.

Posted: 9/5/2005 4:58:47 AM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
AMU guys have found that SAW ammo shoots waaay better than green tip in their 16s/M4s ... FWIW.

Quote from CO pal of AMU Ft. Benning:

"We have found that M995 5.56mm Armor Piercing rounds (normally from 4-1 link for the SAW) fired from the M16A4 and M4 produce groups half the size of M855 Green Tip M16A2 Ball ammo. You will have to re-zero, as AP is both lighter and faster than Green Tip."

BK
AmericanSnipers.org

The reason for that is the TC core of the M955 is milled and one piece, vice the swagged composite cores of the M855 or M856. However that being said most SAW ammo is 4-1 M855-M856 or all M855. Most units don't have M955-M956 on their training allowance and when they request ammo in theater they must used a separate DODIC for AP, vice the normal DODIC which will get them either 4-1 or all ball.

Posted: 9/5/2005 5:30:04 AM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
I bought a good lot of Winchester brass with sealed & crimped primers. 25 grains of H335 and a 52 grain Sierra makes for 1/2 MOA load in most rifles I have tried. The only difference between this load and Win Q3131 is the powder and bullet.

No question about it......the bullet is the most important issue, all other things being equal.

Military Ball has at least one big factor in it's favor........consistancy.

But the bullets cannot compete with Sierra 1410's (or equilivants).

Posted: 9/5/2005 5:40:20 AM EDT

[#24]

2. Anyone that says they routinely shoot sub-MOA groups with iron sights and military ammo has a problem with truthfulness.

+100

Thank you for echoing what I have been thinkoing for years. I hear all the time how guys are shooting 1 MOA with iron sights.

CMOS

Posted: 9/5/2005 5:49:24 AM EDT

[#25]

Thanks Old Painless!

Now I don't feel SO bad seeing such large groups at 100yd using XM193.

Posted: 9/5/2005 6:02:30 AM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
2. Anyone that says they routinely shoot sub-MOA groups with iron sights and military ammo has a problem with truthfulness.

+100

Thank you for echoing what I have been thinkoing for years. I hear all the time how guys are shooting 1 MOA with iron sights.

CMOS

Of course, just to clarify, it is certainly possible to shoot 1 minute groups with iron sights.

But it takes a special rifle, special ammo, and a special shooter.

Posted: 9/5/2005 6:13:09 AM EDT

[#27]

What about the AK guys who say they get 1/2 groups with wolf ammo. Thats a good one. I can usally get 21/2"-3" groups(colt 20" hbar) with normal military ammo at 100 yards.

Posted: 9/5/2005 6:17:10 AM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
What about the AK guys who say they get 1/2 groups with wolf ammo.

Simple.

They are liars.

I can usally get 2 1/2"-3" groups(colt 20" hbar) with normal military ammo at 100 yards.

I'd say that that is about average.

Posted: 9/5/2005 6:31:19 AM EDT

[#29]

Good post Old_Painless,

Those are the results I usually get also, with my BM 20" SS Heavy barrel and various ammo.

But every ounce in a while I will get groups like your hand loads out of the blue with
surplus ammo

Only to have it not repeat it's self the next time

GM

Posted: 9/5/2005 6:37:01 AM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:

But every ounce in a while I will get groups like your hand loads out of the blue with
surplus ammo

Only to have it not repeat it's self the next time

GM

Yep. It's called the Law of Averages.

If you shoot enough groups, you will get what the Bench Rest Shooters call a "Screamer".

But, in reality, they mean nothing.

All that matters is what you can do, each and every time, over and over, on average.

And, with military ball, that is somewhere around 2 - 3 inch groups.

Posted: 9/5/2005 7:22:05 AM EDT

[#31]

Yup. Irons, Red Dot, or Scope I have never averaged anything better than 2.5+" inches at 100yds using XM-193. I always get a tickle out of folks that post a picture of one .53" group and claim they shoot these day-in and day-out. When I first started I thought I sucked I mean everyone else could chew out the X ring with irons and here I was shooting 3 inches with a red dot. Later I picked up some Winchester Silvertip and nearly fell over when all 10 shots fell in the 10 ring. After that I got much more interested as I became aware that I could shoot.

My FAL turns in the occasional sub-MOA group. It / I only shoot about 1.5" on average with good handloads though. It's a 3.5 to 4" gun with MilSurp 7.62

Posted: 9/5/2005 4:54:08 PM EDT

[#32]

I like group 8 with the handloads,what would have happened if you had lowered your Elev,and clicked in a little windage?

Bob

Posted: 9/5/2005 5:09:23 PM EDT

[#33]

Great Post O_P!

Over the weekend I put 60 rounds in a 4" circle at 50 yards in about 2 minutes using my EOTech. I was using the Federal AE 55gr load. I am glad you posted this because I was starting to wonder about my AR/shooting ability. With Q3131 and Winchester Walmart Whitebox ammo I was getting 5" groups at 100 with irons.

Posted: 9/5/2005 5:16:04 PM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:
I like group 8 with the handloads,what would have happened if you had lowered your Elev,and clicked in a little windage?

Bob

Why, that's easy.

I would have shot out my point of aim and wouldn't have had a clear aiming point.

That's why I have it adjusted like I do. I can put it right on POA with a couple of clicks.

Posted: 9/5/2005 5:20:26 PM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:
Great Post O_P!

Over the weekend I put 60 rounds in a 4" circle at 50 yards in about 2 minutes using my EOTech. I was using the Federal AE 55gr load. I am glad you posted this because I was starting to wonder about my AR/shooting ability. With Q3131 and Winchester Walmart Whitebox ammo I was getting 5" groups at 100 with irons.

Sounds perfectly reasonable for irons and mil spec ammo.

And I bet it was Fun!

Posted: 9/5/2005 5:26:08 PM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:
Quoted:
OP,
Thanks for puttinng this together. I have argued for a long time that rack grade rifles and ammunition are not capable of great accuracy for a long time.

Sure thing.

As Gloftoe pointed out, "minute-of-badguy" is plenty good enough for social purposes.

But when some guy tries to tell me he shoots 1/2 minute groups with a standard rifle and ball ammo, I don't believe it.

I've done the research.

Amen!
My brother of all people said yesterday that he has no concerns about hitting 6" paper plates at 100 yds with his standard iron sighted CAR-15, "all day"...and hes shot it like twice?!?! I say, "...Ahhh you might be surprised how difficult irons are at 100 yards.....especially when you don't exactly shoot often..." He just shakes his head....."...I don't worry about it....", he says....

Posted: 9/5/2005 5:34:52 PM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:

Amen!
My brother of all people said yesterday that he has no concerns about hitting 6" paper plates at 100 yds with his standard iron sighted CAR-15, "all day"...and hes shot it like twice?!?! I say, "...Ahhh you might be surprised how difficult irons are at 100 yards.....especially when you don't exactly shoot often..." He just shakes his head....."...I don't worry about it....", he says....

Well, hitting a 6" paper plate at 100 yards is certainly possible with mil spec ammo and a good AR.

It would also depend a lot on your brother's skill with a rifle. If he "doesn't shoot often", then that might be a problem.

This might be a good opportunity to place a friendly bet.

Posted: 9/5/2005 5:48:24 PM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
[snip]
2. Anyone that says they routinely shoot sub-MOA groups with iron sights and military ammo has a problem with truthfulness.
[snip]

Thank you for confirming what I always thought to be true! I'm sick of these "sub-MOA" liars!!!

Posted: 9/5/2005 5:56:27 PM EDT

[#39]

Thanks bro! I have been deluding myself for years that I do not have to handload. Now I have to buy a bunch of stuff and get my ass in gear. I will blame this entire expense on you when I tell my Wife

. MIKE.

Posted: 9/5/2005 6:03:58 PM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:
Thanks bro! I have been deluding myself for years that I do not have to handload. Now I have to buy a bunch of stuff and get my ass in gear. I will blame this entire expense on you when I tell my Wife . MIKE.

I see you live in New York.

I'm in Texas.

Blame all you want on me. I doubt that your wife will ever get her hands around my neck.

Posted: 9/5/2005 6:21:11 PM EDT

[#41]

You know what I like about you OP? You follow up on your own threads and reply alot. Thanks, your posts always seem more like a conversation and less like an announcment from the almighty.

I'm 35 and I scope everything, I don't know how you guys use those iron sights.
Also, I have a Leupold vari-x III 3.5x10 50mm. I would be willing to trade for. I've got the 24'' DPMS stainless heavy barrel and I need the extra magnification.

Posted: 9/5/2005 6:32:19 PM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:
You know what I like about you OP? You follow up on your own threads and reply alot. Thanks, your posts always seem more like a conversation and less like an announcment from the almighty.

Why thanks!

I consider replying to other's posts to be good manners.

I'm 35 and I scope everything, I don't know how you guys use those iron sights.

I am 57 and can see the iron sights pretty clearly.

The 100 yards targets, however.......

Also, I have a Leupold vari-x III 3.5x10 50mm. I would be willing to trade for. I've got the 24'' DPMS stainless heavy barrel and I need the extra magnification.

Many snipers swear by 10X magnification. Thay say that is all that they need.

I personally find that higher magnification makes precision sighting easier. But it does limit field of view. There is a trade-off.

But for me, the better I can see, the better I can shoot.

Posted: 9/5/2005 6:50:27 PM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:
You know what I like about you OP? You follow up on your own threads and reply alot. Thanks, your posts always seem more like a conversation and less like an announcment from the almighty.

+1, and great info!

Posted: 9/5/2005 6:59:17 PM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:
Quoted:
]

Why, that's easy.

I would have shot out my point of aim and wouldn't have had a clear aiming point.

Painless, (Maybe YOU wouldn't be) But I am ASTONISHED by the number of people that do NOT understand that concept. These days, when I'm shooting groups I sometimes put a thumbtack or something out at , say at 9 O'clock as a point of aim and use the X-ring as a point of impact just so I don't have to hear everyone and his cousin give me the old 'Too bad you had the sights off' lineof crap.

For those of you that do not understand the concept: SHooting groups is only a test of rifle and ammo. That's it. A simple test of rifle and ammo. There are no scores, all that matters is how tight the group is. The reason you do NOT want to have the point of aim the same as the point of impact is that when you shoot your first couple of shots, your point of aim simply becomes a vague bunch of holes.

When you decide to use a certain load for something, you simply reset your sights to the proper settings.

Posted: 9/5/2005 7:28:26 PM EDT

[#45]

Added to the website!

www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu8.htm

Posted: 9/5/2005 8:34:51 PM EDT

[#46]

pretty much the same as i get from 3131A and SA ammo also
I have very rarely gotten sub MOA performance from military type 5.56 either
useally figured it was a fluke
I do get close to or sometimes better than MOA with most quality 223

Posted: 9/6/2005 5:21:56 AM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
]

Why, that's easy.

I would have shot out my point of aim and wouldn't have had a clear aiming point.

Painless, (Maybe YOU wouldn't be) But I am ASTONISHED by the number of people that do NOT understand that concept. These days, when I'm shooting groups I sometimes put a thumbtack or something out at , say at 9 O'clock as a point of aim and use the X-ring as a point of impact just so I don't have to hear everyone and his cousin give me the old 'Too bad you had the sights off' lineof crap.

For those of you that do not understand the concept: SHooting groups is only a test of rifle and ammo. That's it. A simple test of rifle and ammo. There are no scores, all that matters is how tight the group is. The reason you do NOT want to have the point of aim the same as the point of impact is that when you shoot your first couple of shots, your point of aim simply becomes a vague bunch of holes.

When you decide to use a certain load for something, you simply reset your sights to the proper settings.

Thanks, piccolo, for the clarification.

I too am often surprised that people make such comments, although I am pretty sure that my friend bobbyjack was just kidding with me.

When I show one of my really tight groups to my granddaughter, she usually says, "You missed, Pappaw."

Adjusting the sights to true zero only takes a couple of seconds.

Posted: 9/6/2005 5:23:45 AM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:
Added to the website!

www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu8.htm

What a guy!

My hero!

Posted: 9/6/2005 6:29:19 AM EDT

[#49]

Another great post O-P!
This is why I handload my own M193 and M855 equivalent ammo. It's a bit of work and it's significantly MORE expensive than what I can buy ready made, but it DOES shoot better than standard factory ammo (and I don't need all that much of it. I can't imagine why I would ever need more than around 500/600 rounds of each).
With my Bushmaster Superlight 16" A2 carbine w/chrome lined 1:9 twist I have kept virtually all of my shots inside of the approx. 6" center mass kill circle of a full size sillouhette target at 100 yards with MY ammo. Most interestingly, I have done this even though I CANNOT SEE the thin white center mass circle against the black sillouhette at that range!

Posted: 9/6/2005 6:53:29 AM EDT

[#50]

Pretty impressive Israelie ammo!

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - The Box O' Truth - 5.56 Military Ammo Accuracy (Page 2 of 3)

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